I've fallen off the cliff!

[meanderingemu]

50 minutes ago, BobD said:

 

I don't think it is always a low mortality rate. 

The current death toll in Italy is over 6%, why it should be higher there is not being made clear.

 

 

demographics and test protocols .   death rate is Death/cases with confirmed infections. 

 

if you focus your testing to people a)in higher risk category and/or stronger symptom you affect the number.

 

in addition i read that Italy's was potentially more vulnerable due to proportion of elderly 

[meanderingemu]

On 09/03/2020 at 21:13, Autumn Sky said:

I flew from Japan month ago;  at YVR guy just asked me "Are you feeling ok" and when I nodded he waved me off.  This was a bit unsettling.   Also read, same timeframe, some person with nose running like Niagara Falls at YYZ, they just gave him some information pamphlets and off you go.   I sincerely hope it is a bit more serious now

 

 

 

Arrived in Toronto yesterday, International arrivals, no special measure, no screening, no temperature readings (i travelled during one of the Chicken flu in mid 2000s and we were all being read getting off airplane in NZ).  Only difference is in the custom declaration a pop up screen "did you visit Wuhan or Iran in last 14 days"  (you would think at least Italy would be in there).  

[meanderingemu]

53 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

 

The western lifestyle is complacent at best, catastrophically destructive at worst. It’s just possible that this pandemic will bring us to our senses, and force us to change our priorities (of course, it’s also possible that we’ll go back to our selfish, wasteful and life-denying ways as soon as the last rites are read and the last body buried). It’s certainly a ‘moment’: an opportunity, perhaps, to be our better selves…

 

to me it's beyond complacent, some of the comments I've read is all about "Me".  I was reading comments of a forum of Pilgrims, and someone was going on "I'm not going to let this virus change my plan to go walk, i am young and healthy", when someone pointed out she would then put at risk elderly locals she replied "People die of hunger every 5 seconds"......  

[sb photos]

2 hours ago, John Morrison said:

 

The western lifestyle is complacent at best, catastrophically destructive at worst. It’s just possible that this pandemic will bring us to our senses, and force us to change our priorities (of course, it’s also possible that we’ll go back to our selfish, wasteful and life-denying ways as soon as the last rites are read and the last body buried). It’s certainly a ‘moment’: an opportunity, perhaps, to be our better selves…

 

John, I can agree with your comments, but "it’s also possible that we’ll go back to our selfish, wasteful and life-denying ways" that I fear will happen. Not everyone one, but those with the selfish 'I'm all right Jack' mentality, and with climate change deniers the biggest threat to humanity. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by sb photos

[Betty LaRue]

2 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

 

to me it's beyond complacent, some of the comments I've read is all about "Me".  I was reading comments of a forum of Pilgrims, and someone was going on "I'm not going to let this virus change my plan to go walk, i am young and healthy", when someone pointed out she would then put at risk elderly locals she replied "People die of hunger every 5 seconds"......  

Yes, I know someone with that attitude. Me, me. Disregarding what might happen to her grandparents with or without pre-existing conditions.

Somebody on the news stated that the old folks in nursing homes here could be fine one hour, then being taken to the hospital an hour later in dire straights. 
That's scary.

[meanderingemu]

1 minute ago, Betty LaRue said:

Yes, I know someone with that attitude. Me, me. Disregarding what might happen to her grandparents with or without pre-existing conditions.

Somebody on the news stated that the old folks in nursing homes here could be fine one hour, then being taken to the hospital an hour later in dire straights. 
That's scary.

 

 

i was on the Subway last night and these 2 "young ones" probably mid-20s, were saying, it's only old people that are affected.  I really wanted to say "like your parents or grandparents?'"  but didn't 

[Betty LaRue]

1 minute ago, meanderingemu said:

 

 

i was on the Subway last night and these 2 "young ones" probably mid-20s, were saying, it's only old people that are affected.  I really wanted to say "like your parents or grandparents?'"  but didn't 

There might be an attitude change when one of them loses a beloved senior family member. Maybe not. It seems to me those with that “me” attitude aren’t valuing their senior family members or they wouldn’t be voicing insensitive comments.

There are some people very ill that are young. Nobody is immune. Granted, it is hitting the older population worse, but it is likely that it’s the younger generations who feel bullet-proof that is spreading it.

Scenerio...young persons infected, but only cold-like symptoms. Hungry for pizza or whatever. Do you think all of them will stay confined to their home? Or will some of them go pick up that pizza, paying for it with virus-covered money, and maybe sneezing or coughing in the process?

Community spread. With age, comes wisdom.

[MDM]

1 hour ago, sb photos said:

 

John, I can agree with your comments, but "it’s also possible that we’ll go back to our selfish, wasteful and life-denying ways" that I fear will happen. Not everyone one, but those with the selfish 'I'm all right Jack' mentality, and with climate change deniers the biggest threat to humanity. 

 

It is my opinion that we are way past the containment phase with regard to climate change and probably at best in the advanced delay stage if we use the Covid-19 terminology. In fact we are probably into the mitigate stage 4, as the so-called research phase 3 has been going on for a long time and largely ignored.

 

The feedbacks are such with the icecaps melting rapidly and the oceans and atmosphere warming that it is hard to envisage how any reversal can occur. If you factor human nature into the equation then we were screwed since around the time the industrial revolution began. We do nothing until it hits us in the face and this is still so abstract that it allows world leaders to deny it is even happening. Yes it is happening fast but not so fast that any of us will see the ultimate consequences: massive rises in sea level as well as massive global temperature rises. Yes it has happened before on Earth when there were no ice caps and sea levels were way higher than at present and it will happen again. The natural mitigators and negative feedbacks are almost certainly going to be overpowered by human influence. And it is not just humanity but probably a high proportion of species at risk of decimation or total extinction. 

 

So the only answer even for mitigation is for the entire global community to work together pretty much immediately as people have intimated above. Is that likely to happen? Not a chance. Globabl economics will see to that. The climate change deniers are just a symptom of a disease and part of a general trend towards the acceptance of fake news but they are not responsible for anything more than delaying a significant reaction if such was even possible. Fighting over habitable land is more likely than global cooperation. 

 

That is my cheery thought for today and something I have been aware of for a long time in fact. So it doesn't scare me at all as I have become used to the idea that we are just living in a bubble and of course I won't be around when it really takes off. That is how we all cope. Anyway if it takes anybody's mind off Covid-19 then perhaps it was worth saying. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by MDM

[BobD]

2 hours ago, MDM said:

 

It is my opinion that we are way past the containment phase with regard to climate change and probably at best in the advanced delay stage if we use the Covid-19 terminology. In fact we are probably into the mitigate stage 4, as the so-called research phase 3 has been going on for a long time and largely ignored.

 

The feedbacks are such with the icecaps melting rapidly and the oceans and atmosphere warming that it is hard to envisage how any reversal can occur. If you factor human nature into the equation then we were screwed since around the time the industrial revolution began. We do nothing until it hits us in the face and this is still so abstract that it allows world leaders to deny it is even happening. Yes it is happening fast but not so fast that any of us will see the ultimate consequences: massive rises in sea level as well as massive global temperature rises. Yes it has happened before on Earth when there were no ice caps and sea levels were way higher than at present and it will happen again. The natural mitigators and negative feedbacks are almost certainly going to be overpowered by human influence. And it is not just humanity but probably a high proportion of species at risk of decimation or total extinction. 

 

So the only answer even for mitigation is for the entire global community to work together pretty much immediately as people have intimated above. Is that likely to happen? Not a chance. Globabl economics will see to that. The climate change deniers are just a symptom of a disease and part of a general trend towards the acceptance of fake news but they are not responsible for anything more than delaying a significant reaction if such was even possible. Fighting over habitable land is more likely than global cooperation. 

 

That is my cheery thought for today and something I have been aware of for a long time in fact. So it doesn't scare me at all as I have become used to the idea that we are just living in a bubble and of course I won't be around when it really takes off. That is how we all cope. Anyway if it takes anybody's mind off Covid-19 then perhaps it was worth saying. 

 

Your not Marb's brother are you.☹️

[MDM]

4 minutes ago, BobD said:

 

Your not Marb's brother are you.☹️

Not at all. I am probably one of the most rational and pragmatic people you are ever likely to come across. What I say is based on evidence. I am a former highly qualified professional geoscientist and I studied climate change back in the 80s before almost anyone had ever heard of global warming. 

[geogphotos]

7 minutes ago, MDM said:

Not at all. I am probably one of the most rational and pragmatic people you are ever likely to come across. What I say is based on evidence. I am a former highly qualified professional geoscientist and I studied climate change back in the 80s before almost anyone had ever heard of global warming. 

 

 

Unfortunately, the entire topic has become politicised and climate change 'denial' is firmly established in the anti-science 'belief based' ideological system of some these days.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by geogphotos

[MDM]

18 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

 

Unfortunately, the entire topic has become politicised and climate change 'denial' is firmly established in the anti-science 'belief based' ideological system of some these days.

 

 

Yes unfortunately many politicians are in the pockets of the clean coal brigade and denial has been very well funded no doubt. Fake news is nothing new. 

[riccarbi]

5 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

There might be an attitude change when one of them loses a beloved senior family member. Maybe not. It seems to me those with that “me” attitude aren’t valuing their senior family members or they wouldn’t be voicing insensitive comments.

There are some people very ill that are young. Nobody is immune. Granted, it is hitting the older population worse, but it is likely that it’s the younger generations who feel bullet-proof that is spreading it.

Scenerio...young persons infected, but only cold-like symptoms. Hungry for pizza or whatever. Do you think all of them will stay confined to their home? Or will some of them go pick up that pizza, paying for it with virus-covered money, and maybe sneezing or coughing in the process?

Community spread. With age, comes wisdom.

Young people ARE NOT COVID-19 proof, there is an 18-year-old boy in intensive care treatment here in Cremona and many others in their 20s are in assisted ventilation for coronavirus-related life-threatening bilater pneumonia. Nobody is immune and everybody should be responsible and unselfish, particularly now; say this to your younger relatives and friends, please.

Edited March 11, 2020 by riccarbi

[Marianne]

As an over-60 person with 5 autoimmune diseases, I'm scared but I have healthy friends in their 50's who are still planning vacations abroad when their kids are on spring break, and everyone here in Westchester County, NY, which has the highest number of cases in NY, doubling every few days, is still going to work except in one square mile around the town which had the largest outbreak (where they have called in the National Guard to clean the area). There aren't enough tests to go around, and even if you have symptom, you can't get tested unless you have been to China, Italy or S. Korea or in touch with someone already and have symptoms, but even then they will test you for flu first, unless you are a member of Congress, then you get a test without symptoms and the best medical treatment available. Our President denies climate change and until recently said the coronavirus was a hoax. And those who don't believe him and want to prepare for the worst are buying water in PLASTIC bottles to pollute the earth - and it's not a hurricane where people on well might lose power and need water or have their pipes broken and need it. Our plumbing won't be effected by a virus. It's just insane. Until people see their friends dying or hospitalized they won't do enough, and even then there's been so much "it's just like the flu" misinformation, and let's face it, most of us have lived through the flu at least once (I've lived through pneumonia three times) so human nature tells us, we'll be okay. Until we're not. 

 

I shudder to think of what a mess our world will be when my 18-month-old grandson is my age. I've cared about the planet since the 1970's when we first knew there were issues, but big business won out on so many fronts. Did you know the plastics industry came up with the recycling concept so people wouldn't mind using disposable plastics? Yet we've only ever recycled about 10% each year. But I know the water in Long Island Sound and the air in NYC are both noticeably cleaner than when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's thanks to the Clean Air and Water Acts - it can be done - and yet our government is trying to undo even that progress. 

 

This pandemic may change attitudes and it may not. I hope we all live to find out. 

[Betty LaRue]

This isn’t the place for politics.

[Autumn Sky]

No, not place for politics Betty. But this is much more serious problem than many think & it will take global effort to address with everyone on board, not just "US and it's allies" etc .  So politics of cooperation is required.

 

I don't know it will happen though. What us, "small people" should be doing in the meantime is:   recycle as much as possible. Reusable, not plastic grocery bags. Walk if you can, take public transit if you can't walk, carpool and drive as last option. Pick up trash. If you have kids, raise them with values they need to care for environment.  Etc etc.

 

Last 10 yrs I am hiking with trash bag in side pocket of my backpack & pick up plastic bottles, wraps etc other hikers throw on trails. It comes back half full every time. Won't save the planet, but at least it makes me feel I am doing the right thing, and that is something.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Autumn Sky

[meanderingemu]

6 minutes ago, Autumn Sky said:

No, not place for politics Betty. But this is much more serious problem than many think & it will take global effort to address with everyone on board, not just "US and it's allies" etc .  So politics of cooperation is required.

 

I don't know it will happen though. What us, "small people" should be doing in the meantime is:   recycle as much as possible. Reusable, not plastic grocery bags. Walk if you can, take public transit if you can't walk, carpool and drive as last option. Pick up trash. If you have kids, raise them with values they need to care for environment.  Etc etc.

 

Last 10 yrs I am hiking with trash bag in side pocket of my backpack & pick up plastic bottles, wraps etc other hikers throw on trails. It comes back half full every time. Won't save the planet, but at least it makes me feel I am doing the right thing, and that is something.

 

 

 

on behalf of me: Thank you.    I have seen too many people use bogus justification to justify not doing anything.  There is a certain nomadic Guru that goes own that flying is OK, since it pollutes less than XYZ....  (forgetting to mention, "oh yeah if you guys stop doing it my blog and referrals are worthless).   

similar as some people justifying not adapting to COVID-19, because you are more likely to die from Shark attack......(i am still awaiting his stats on Shark death in Milan, but that's another story )

 

 

[Michael Ventura]

5 minutes ago, Autumn Sky said:

No, not place for politics Betty. But this is much more serious problem than many think & it will take global effort to address with everyone on board, not just "US and it's allies" etc .  So politics of cooperation is required.

 

I don't know it will happen though. What us, "small people" should be doing in the meantime is:   recycle as much as possible. Reusable, not plastic grocery bags. Walk if you can, take public transit if you can't walk, carpool and drive as last option. Pick up trash. If you have kids, raise them with values they need to care for environment.  Etc etc.

 

Last 10 yrs I am hiking with trash bag in side pocket of my backpack & pick up plastic bottles, wraps etc other hikers throw on trails. It comes back half full every time. Won't save the planet, but at least it makes me feel I am doing the right thing, and that is something.

 

Love the idea of hiking with a trash bag, I am always picking trash around my neighborhood.  People are generally less inclined to toss when place is kept clean.  Both my 20 something kids are like me, they are very good about recycling, never littering...my daughter is always pushing to use less plastic and more reusable anything.  And speaking of the pandemic that we are all dealing with, my daughter is on the frontlines, working as a hospital nurse. She just left for her 12 hour night shift.  She lives with me and I do worry that she could bring it home without knowing, which could be tough on me...not so much her.

[Marianne]

39 minutes ago, Michael Ventura said:

Love the idea of hiking with a trash bag, I am always picking trash around my neighborhood.  People are generally less inclined to toss when place is kept clean.  Both my 20 something kids are like me, they are very good about recycling, never littering...my daughter is always pushing to use less plastic and more reusable anything.  And speaking of the pandemic that we are all dealing with, my daughter is on the frontlines, working as a hospital nurse. She just left for her 12 hour night shift.  She lives with me and I do worry that she could bring it home without knowing, which could be tough on me...not so much her.

 

Hope you are both OK. Hopefully her hospital has adequate protection for her. Doctors and nurses have to be brave every day. Kudos to your daughter and really hope both of you and the rest of your family stay safe. I've read stories and comments in the Washington Post and NY Times where nurses haven't been tested, some told to quarantine because they don't have enough tests.

 

1 hour ago, Betty LaRue said:

This isn’t the place for politics.

 

Honestly, pointing out that our president has been denying that this virus is a danger is not political, it is a fact. I have seen him speak. If I wanted to be political, I'd say a lot more. I worry for brave folks like your daughter Michael and if some here think that what I've said is political, so be it. Some thing transcend politics. 

Democrats, Republicans and Independents alike are buying bottled water. We all are adding to landfills. We all need to try to do better. This is not politics, it is a cry for leaving a better world for the future. 

 

We need to be able to have factual discussions. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Marianne

[Betty LaRue]

I do agree we need to clean up the earth. Somebody in one of the threads posted a pic showing all the plastic and trash washed up on the beach in Asia, and I could hardly believe it. My main concern is what this trash is doing to ocean life, seabirds, etc. it’s criminal. When I see a story about beached whales, and people are wondering why, I think, “what have they swallowed? A ton of plastic? Or poisoned from polluted oceans?”

I remember when soft drinks came in bottles (not cans, not plastic) that one returned to the store for a refund.  As far as recycling goes, some towns have stopped taking certain things because the cost of reprocessing the material cost too much. There should be an answer for that. Trying to remember if it was glass.

I did buy 12 bags of mulch today...rubber pellets. Two or three times as expensive as the tree bark, but it’s made from recycled tires. I probably bought about 6-8 old worn out tires! Lol.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Betty LaRue

[Sultanpepa]

22 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

I do agree we need to clean up the earth. Somebody in one of the threads posted a pic showing all the plastic and trash washed up on the beach in Asia, and I could hardly believe it. My main concern is what this trash is doing to ocean life, seabirds, etc. it’s criminal. When I see a story about beached whales, and people are wondering why, I think, “what have they swallowed? A ton of plastic? Or poisoned from polluted oceans?”

I remember when soft drinks came in bottles (not cans, not plastic) that one returned to the store for a refund.  As far as recycling goes, some towns have stopped taking certain things because the cost of reprocessing the material cost too much. There should be an answer for that. Trying to remember if it was glass.

I did buy 12 bags of mulch today...rubber pellets. Two or three times as expensive as the tree bark, but it’s made from recycled tires. I probably bought about 6-8 old worn out tires! Lol.

Is it planet friendly to be using rubber pellets as a mulch? 😲 

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Betty LaRue said:

I do agree we need to clean up the earth. Somebody in one of the threads posted a pic showing all the plastic and trash washed up on the beach in Asia, and I could hardly believe it. My main concern is what this trash is doing to ocean life, seabirds, etc. it’s criminal. When I see a story about beached whales, and people are wondering why, I think, “what have they swallowed? A ton of plastic? Or poisoned from polluted oceans?

I remember when soft drinks came in bottles (not cans, not plastic) that one returned to the store for a refund.  As far as recycling goes, some towns are stopping taking certain things because the cost of processing the material cost too much. There should be an answer for that. Trying to remember if it was glass.

Plastic pollution is a terrible thing but this just illustrates that fundamental trait of humanity to ignore problems that we cannot see until they become tangible and visible.  Plastic pollution is a symptom of the far more serious underlying disease of massive anthropogenic climate change and is causing ocean warming at an alarming rate. We can’t really see this and when a scientist says that oceanic or atmospheric temperatures have risen by a degree or two it is meaningless to most people but it is actually incredibly serious. This will not only cause sea levels to rise and contribute directly and indirectly to melting of the ice caps, it will also lead directly to massive disturbance of the oceanic ecosystems. A few beached whales are nothing in comparison to what is really happening, as the entire oceanic food chain is highly sensitive to temperature. Once the food chain goes, mass extinction will follow. And the terrestrial ecosystems are closely linked to the oceans and the atmosphere.

 

It is great that people are becoming aware of ecological and environmental disasters such as plastic pollution but global warming is the real biggie that will override all of this. So being concerned about plastic is fine but be aware that supporting those who continue to deny climate change is orders of magnitude more serious in terms of possible outcomes. The US pulling out of the Paris Agreement could even be the final nail in the coffin of global cooperation, which  is essential if we are to have any chance of mitigating global warming.  What is the point of everyone else trying if such a massive consumer of fossil fuels denies that there is even a problem? The consequences of doing nothing, denying it is happening and continuing to burn fossil fuels are unimaginable for us living in our Goldilocks bubble. Mass extinction here we come. It is really that serious. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by MDM

[John Mitchell]

7 hours ago, geogphotos said:

 

Unfortunately, the entire topic has become politicised and climate change 'denial' is firmly established in the anti-science 'belief based' ideological system of some these days.

 

 

Sadly, just about everything gets politicized -- even weaponized -- these days, and consequently any chance of rational discourse flies out the window. I guess you could say that one of the great failings of democracy is that it usually ends up pitting us against each other. Trouble is no one has come up with a better system...

Edited March 12, 2020 by John Mitchell

[Betty LaRue]

41 minutes ago, Sultanpepa said:

Is it planet friendly to be using rubber pellets as a mulch? 😲 

We have tires on our cars. When they wear out, they go to landfills. Or they’re used to shore up eroding cliffs, near water. (Is that good?) They are still on the planet. I can’t see how spreading mulch around here and there is more harmful than in a landfill. Burning them isn’t an option, too toxic.  Plus cedar trees are being saved, the ones that are being shredded for mulch. I assume the bark mulch comes from trees cut for lumber, but I don’t know that for sure. 

[Alex Ramsay]

I'm pleased to see that this topic, 'I've fallen off the cliff', is now ranked next to the topic 'Dangers of photography' . . .

 

Alex