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Bryan

Are these bullet holes?

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I took this shot in the historic Italian town of Ventimiglia. I was interested in the old iron plaque issued by a fire insurance company, but didn't notice the hole in it or those in the masonry above. I've tried to research the history of the town but, not speaking Italian, haven't been able to find any relevant connections other than details about the company issuing the plaque.  Anybody know anything about the possible bullet holes?

 

fire-insurance-mark-or-metal-plaque-of-t

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9 hours ago, Bryan said:

I took this shot in the historic Italian town of Ventimiglia. I was interested in the old iron plaque issued by a fire insurance company, but didn't notice the hole in it or those in the masonry above. I've tried to research the history of the town but, not speaking Italian, haven't been able to find any relevant connections other than details about the company issuing the plaque.  Anybody know anything about the possible bullet holes?

 

fire-insurance-mark-or-metal-plaque-of-t

 

Bryan has you tried Google translate. It does a remarkably good job. If desperate I could have a stab at some *rough* translation (the nouns and stems similar to French), but I'd say Google would do a better job.

Could you contact an Italian tourist information office for some info about the town  ?

Edited by BidC

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Bryan, short answer is I don't know. This however is shrapnel damage from the Bath Blitz in the 1940's, there may be similarities?shrapnel-damge-from-the-april-1942-bath-

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The wall looks as if it might have been patched up with new concrete (or whatever the white-ish stuff is), and there appear to be holes in it as well suggesting that they might have been made not too long ago.  Vandalism with a sharp tool perhaps?

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I suppose that if you can't be sure what they are then maybe best to exclude them from the caption and keywords? 

 

Or alternatively simply say holes that 'look like bullet or shrapnel damage'. They are not the most important element of the image.

 

 

Edited by geogphotos

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Thanks for all of the suggestions.  😊

 

I've already tried Google translate, but the tourist office sounds a possible way forward.

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14 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  😊

 

I've already tried Google translate, but the tourist office sounds a possible way forward.

 

This is dated 2001, so the company may not be in business, but its written in English so it might be a lead ... https://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/10-ras-riunione-adriatica-di-sicurta/1352965.article

 

Might be worth putting the picture into Google search (?)

Edited by BidC

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On 19/09/2019 at 09:00, Mr Standfast said:

Bryan, short answer is I don't know. This however is shrapnel damage from the Bath Blitz in the 1940's, there may be similarities?shrapnel-damge-from-the-april-1942-bath-

 

 

agreed.   from images i have from Bosnia it does look like shrapnel damage.

 

one thing i was also told to look for is openess of location.   if it was bullets it usually would be open enough for a shooter to have stood away from it and reach that spots (ie tight streets were unlikely bullet holes)

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Bullet holes can vary in size and shape, Bryan, but those don't look like bullet holes to me. I don't know of any bullet that would produce those odd shapes. Most would make a roundish hole unless it was a hollow point. The plaque just mentions a security meeting, not a battle. 

 

Edo

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The holes do look a bit sharp to be bullet or shrapnel holes.  

Maybe the holes were made deliberately to provide a ‘key’ for a rendering that was to be applied to the stonework and subsequently the rendering has come away?

Do you have any other pictures of the building?
…or maybe you could find the location on Google street view and get a screen grab of the front of the building.


GD

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Thanks for the further contributions folks. 

 

The plaque also has a hole, in fact I noticed that first. It appears to have been pierced from above. I don't have any other photos unfortunately. My tentative theory is that there might have been small arms fire from above, from across the street, which might explain the strange shape of the holes. However I won't be annotating the photo to that effect unless I get some positive proof.

 

The plaque is a fire insurance mark, as I understand it, if you paid the company they would mark your house with a plaque and attempt to put out any fire that might occur. Further research suggests that the company subsequently became a large conventional insurer.

 

Can't find an online tourist office as such but I contacted a guy who hosts a Ventimiglia blog, and he was kind enough to reply very quickly, but he couldn't add anything to the story.

 

Information is very scant about this place, I've another shot of a prominent local feature that I cannot find anything about - don't want to waste your time on it!  Things may change, they're currently building a high security posh yacht marina intended to pull in the super rich from Nice and Monte Carlo etc.

Edited by Bryan

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"My tentative theory is that there might have been small arms fire from above, from across the street, which might explain the strange shape of the holes."

 

No way. Those holes are probably made with a small pickax -- the pointed end.

 

 

tomahawk-with-pickaxe.jpg

Edited by Ed Rooney

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In my (admittedly limited) experience (I do a bit of small bore target shooting) they are too well defined to be bullet holes. As a rule, due the the soft deformable nature of lead bullets, they tend to leave a slightly rounded less distinct edge with hard materials due to "spalling" . When the energy of the round disperses as it expands theres usually a blow back type of effect and the initially neat entry hole gets flaked around the edge more due to material being ejected back out. 

Re-reading that makes me realise why my wife says I'm useless at explaining things to other people 🤣

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James, we both know that your wife is totally right 98.6% of the time. However, in this rare instance, I found your explanation of bullet holes correct and illuminating. 

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Probably not bullet holes then 😉

 

Mad axe man attacks building. Did somebody mention providing a key for rendering? Possible decoration? All very odd.

Edited by Bryan
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To me there are a range of marks.

 

The small peck shaped marks certainly look like they were produced by Edo's exhibit "A". Some are in the stone work but in the top left they are in the "mortar", implying they are later than the mortar repair. Very likely not rlated to the large mark to the right of the sign.

 

The large mark to the right of the sign has similar shape to a Bath Blitz shrapnel witness. The mortar may be a repair to this?

 

Buildings in Bath and Bristol with these marks are usual surrounded by 1960's architecture or open spaces. 

 

Facinating picture Bryan.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Ed Rooney said:

"My tentative theory is that there might have been small arms fire from above, from across the street, which might explain the strange shape of the holes."

 

No way. Those holes are probably made with a small pickax -- the pointed end.

 

 

tomahawk-with-pickaxe.jpg

 

 

Reminds me of the Movie 12 Angry Men when Henry Fonda pull out the Switch Blade....

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It's always a mistake to assume that things shown in movies are correct.

 

In movies, the hero is constantly running down a hallway while several villains fire at him with assault weapons on full-auto . . . yet he doesn't get hit. ??? Also in movies, a hand grenade produces a huge orange-flame in an explosion that can blow up a restaurant. In real life a grenade shows just a small amount of gray smoke and doesn't blow up much. It's the shrapnel that does the damage. And that hero running down the hall? He would be cut to ribbons. 

 

I saw 12 Angry Men but don't recall the scene. 

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57 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Probably not bullet holes then 😉

 

Mad axe man attacks building. Did somebody mention providing a key for rendering? Possible decoration? All very odd.

 

Bryan, picture a kid amusing himself with his father's tools.

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30 minutes ago, Ed Rooney said:

It's always a mistake to assume that things shown in movies are correct.

 

In movies, the hero is constantly running down a hallway while several villains fire at him with assault weapons on full-auto . . . yet he doesn't get hit. ??? Also in movies, a hand grenade produces a huge orange-flame in an explosion that can blow up a restaurant. In real life a grenade shows just a small amount of gray smoke and doesn't blow up much. It's the shrapnel that does the damage. And that hero running down the hall? He would be cut to ribbons. 

 

I saw 12 Angry Men but don't recall the scene. 

 

 

 

 

 

With apologies to the copyright holder of 12 Angy Men;  Henry Fonda was juror No 8, the prosecution had argued the knife was unique...

 

NO. 4: Take a look at that knife. It's a very strange knife. I've never seen one like it before in my life and neither had the storekeeper who sold it to him.

NO. 8 reaches casually into his pocket and withdraws an object. No one notices this. He stands up quietly.]

NO. 4: Aren't you trying to make us accept a pretty incredible coincidence?

NO. 8: I'm not trying to make anyone accept it. I'm just saying it's possible.

NO. 3:(shouting). And I'm saying it's not possible!

[NO. 8 swiftly flicks open the blade of a switch knife and jams it into the table next to the first one. They are exactly alike. There are several gasps and everyone stares at the knife. There is a long silence.]

NO. 3:(slowly amazed) What are you trying to do?

NO. 10: (loudly) Yeah, what is this? Who do you think you are?

NO. 5: Look at it! It's the same knife.

FOREMAN: Quiet! Let's be quiet. [They quiet down.]

NO. 4: Where did you get it?

NO. 8: I got it last night in a little junk shop around the corner from the boy's house. It cost two dollars.

 

 

 

And Cop programmes where they "enhance that picture", gotta laugh.

 

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My theory is Professor Plum did it with his dagger. 🧐

 

The professor usually does his dirty work in the library, but it was closed on that particular day, so he took out his anger on the nearest wall.

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12 hours ago, Ed Rooney said:

It's always a mistake to assume that things shown in movies are correct.

 

In movies, the hero is constantly running down a hallway while several villains fire at him with assault weapons on full-auto . . . yet he doesn't get hit. ??? Also in movies, a hand grenade produces a huge orange-flame in an explosion that can blow up a restaurant. In real life a grenade shows just a small amount of gray smoke and doesn't blow up much. It's the shrapnel that does the damage. And that hero running down the hall? He would be cut to ribbons. 

 

I saw 12 Angry Men but don't recall the scene. 

 
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12 hours ago, Ed Rooney said:

It's always a mistake to assume that things shown in movies are correct.

 

So true. Someone beating on corregated tin or rippling it off-set to make a thunder sound did not make thunder. He/she just made a tinny sound! 😊

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E0APBR.jpg

 

This is a bullet hole.

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I've seen a few bullet hits in Riga, Berlin and so on- places that have been through it a bit- they look like shallow scabs rather than those deep notches. So I wonder if it's a poor attempt at rustication. Or keying for render.

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