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It appears that if we submit our pics to NR we are then free to use them on Alamy without issue. It appears that NR may only use them for their own purposes and may not resell or licence them.

 

See below

 

dov

  How to submit a station photo

We are seeking source photographs of every GB National Rail station

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We’d like to invite all the budding photographers out there to take a picture of your local station or stations and submit them through to us.

We’ll pick the best picture for each station and upload it to the page with a credit showing who took it. We’ll also showcase our favourite entries on our Facebook page & Pinterest gallery.

Submitting your photos

Pictures should be taken in landscape format, depending on the type of image submitted we will crop or resize as required. By submitting your photos, you confirm acceptance of the Terms below.

Twitter

Tweet us your picture to @NRE_YourJourney

Instagram

Take a picture on your phone and post it to Instagram, tag @nationalrailenq in the picture.

Email

Send an email to blog[at]nationalrail.co.uk with your picture attached.

Terms & Conditions
  • If you submit your contribution to National Rail Enquiries you must allow the us to use the material on a free-of-charge basis on this website or via our social channels.
  • You grant National Rail Enquiries the right to change or edit your contribution(s) for operational and editorial reasons.
  • Any copyright owned by you will remain with you and this permission is not exclusive, so you can continue to use the material you contribute in any way including allowing others to use it.
  • You confirm that your contribution is your own original work, is not defamatory or unlawful and does not infringe anyone else's rights (including privacy rights).
  • We will show your name or social handle with your contribution, unless you request otherwise.
  • If you do not want to grant National Rail Enquiries permission to use your contributions in accordance with these Terms, please do not submit them.
  • When taking photos, please do not endanger yourself or others, take unnecessary risks or infringe any laws.
  • Information about taking pictures on railway property is available here.
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Well here's an angle to go for, certainly the photographs of sculptures.

NR is claiming violation of their exclusive IPR.

However, s62 CDPA: copyright in a sculpture in a public place or premises open to the public is not infringed by taking a photograph of it.

Secondly, does NR own any rights in the sculpture anyway?

I'm going for it.

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I'm less worried about the fact that these images are stock and more the possible impact on them enforcing a "no reporting zone" for news photographers...

 
I know they will argue that they have a press office in place who will give permission but of course wether this is likely to happen or wether it can happen in a fast enough timeframe for us actually to report..
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Does anybody know under what byelaws Network Rail are doing this? (Similar question to that relating to the National Trust). It can't be a contractual restriction (like say when you buy a ticket for a sporting event or concert) because some of my photos were taken from a position where I didn't need to have bought a ticket.

Maybe you should appeal those to Alamy then and see what happens? At least then you'd know how much to complain about.

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Exactly; the restriction on editorial and loss of photographic record is a major issue.  When the next major engineering delays occurs presumably no photographer can sell images of the waiting crowds at Network Rail stations - handy eh?!!

 

(intended as reply to Julie Edwards)

Edited by digi2ap
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My Paris Gare du Nord image has been re-instated.

 

Thank you!

 

wim

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Not directly relevant, perhaps, but this is from Network Rail's website:

"In September 2014 we were reclassified as a public sector organisation.  We know from our transparency polling that, while important for all organisations, a higher level of transparency is expected from public bodies. So people now expect us to be more open as a matter of course, and we'll have to work harder to exceed their expectations. 

This makes it even more important that all our people are working in a more open, honest and accessible way."

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/transparency/open-culture

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One of my favourite images is "Wartime Terminus 1942" by Burt Hardy (Google it) ...

Shame we can't do a modern version due to @networkrail bylaws.

Edited by Julie Edwards

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I also received the email this morning advising me that five of my images were being pulled. I have replied to the image management team and also 'phoned Alamy before coming here…..to six pages !!!

The link that was supplied to the bylaws stating that images taken on "their" property cannot be used for selling/commercial purposes is fair enough….However….the five photos that were pulled…three were taken in the 1970s….and two were taken in the 1960s…Network Rail did not even come into being until 2002 !!

As Network Rail are the "owners" of a lot of the infrastructure as well….most UK rail pictures could therefore be under threat now.

How sad that a national company such as this employs jobsworths with nothing better to do….are pictures of steam trains from the 1960s going to really cause problems for them?

If they can apply IP retrospectively, i.e., before they even existed, how many historical pictures are going to be destined to never see the light of day?

A slippery slope indeed….

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I have 5 deletions. It's coincidental but only one shows a train. The others are mostly of commuters within the station concourse. I wonder how the laws in Scotland may differ from those of the rest of the UK regarding IPR

In general rights here are less restrictive than in England, but I don't have specifics for this case.

In trying to find specific information about Glasgow Central Station, from where most of my deletions came, I haven't found anything in the general t&d, but they do a pay-for backscenes tour and say this:

"2.4 Photography will be permitted on the Tour at the discretion of the Tour Guide. Users will be informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station. Users are required to confirm with the Tour Guide, if they are in any doubt, as to where and when they can take photographs. No video footage is permitted at any point or place within the tour or within Glasgow Central Station."

Nothing restricting use of photographs taken on the tour.

 

It would be interesting to find out exactly "when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station". In fact, I will email them right now to find out.

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I have 5 deletions. It's coincidental but only one shows a train. The others are mostly of commuters within the station concourse. I wonder how the laws in Scotland may differ from those of the rest of the UK regarding IPR

In general rights here are less restrictive than in England, but I don't have specifics for this case.

In trying to find specific information about Glasgow Central Station, from where most of my deletions came, I haven't found anything in the general t&d, but they do a pay-for backscenes tour and say this:

"2.4 Photography will be permitted on the Tour at the discretion of the Tour Guide. Users will be informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station. Users are required to confirm with the Tour Guide, if they are in any doubt, as to where and when they can take photographs. No video footage is permitted at any point or place within the tour or within Glasgow Central Station."

Nothing restricting use of photographs taken on the tour.

 

It would be interesting to find out exactly "when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station". In fact, I will email them right now to find out.

 

Might be more to do with the tour than the station... i.e. they don't want you videoing the guide or disrupting the station during your tour.

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Have the images in question been removed yet ?

 

Ones that I've been told are been removed are still showing in searches.

 

They didn't find the nuclear waste train picture in Bristol station that I took the other day !

 

Network Rail....... more like Notwork Trail.

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i trust everyone has now submitted FOI requests to Network Rail by email and also emailed the Minister 

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I have 5 deletions. It's coincidental but only one shows a train. The others are mostly of commuters within the station concourse. I wonder how the laws in Scotland may differ from those of the rest of the UK regarding IPR

In general rights here are less restrictive than in England, but I don't have specifics for this case.

In trying to find specific information about Glasgow Central Station, from where most of my deletions came, I haven't found anything in the general t&d, but they do a pay-for backscenes tour and say this:

"2.4 Photography will be permitted on the Tour at the discretion of the Tour Guide. Users will be informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station. Users are required to confirm with the Tour Guide, if they are in any doubt, as to where and when they can take photographs. No video footage is permitted at any point or place within the tour or within Glasgow Central Station."

Nothing restricting use of photographs taken on the tour.

 

It would be interesting to find out exactly "when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station". In fact, I will email them right now to find out.

 

Might be more to do with the tour than the station... i.e. they don't want you videoing the guide or disrupting the station during your tour.

 

Indeeed, but the suggestion is that photography is allowed in certain places, and there is nothing on the page which forbids licencing any images taken.

Anyway, I used their contact page to write:

 

Today I was informed that a selection of stock photos, including some taken in the concourse at Glasgow Central,  with my agency, Alamy, following contact from Network Rail saying images taken within railway stations were in breach of their Intellectual Property.

I can't link you to these photos, as apparently they were removed from Alamy overnight, but the ones taken in Glasgow Central were general photos of the concourse, passengers going about their business, the departure board, the Christmas tree and the shops in the concourse.

I've been unsuccessful in finding specific information about Glasgow Central Station in particular, but I see from the T&C of your tour that participants on the tour would be "informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station", and there is nothing forbidding licensing such photos as editorial

Therefore I would appreciate a clarification as to where photography is permitted within the station.

Thank you for your assistance.

 

Edited by Cryptoprocta

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I also received the email this morning advising me that five of my images were being pulled. I have replied to the image management team and also 'phoned Alamy before coming here…..to six pages !!!

The link that was supplied to the bylaws stating that images taken on "their" property cannot be used for selling/commercial purposes is fair enough….However….the five photos that were pulled…three were taken in the 1970s….and two were taken in the 1960s…Network Rail did not even come into being until 2002 !!

As Network Rail are the "owners" of a lot of the infrastructure as well….most UK rail pictures could therefore be under threat now.

How sad that a national company such as this employs jobsworths with nothing better to do….are pictures of steam trains from the 1960s going to really cause problems for them?

If they can apply IP retrospectively, i.e., before they even existed, how many historical pictures are going to be destined to never see the light of day?

A slippery slope indeed….

 

You say "The link that was supplied to the bylaws stating that images taken on "their" property cannot be used for selling/commercial purposes is fair enough"   It's a very important point though that the link you are referring to are not bylaws. As far as I can see there is no bylaw that specifically relates to photography - either taking photos or selling them. If that is correct then we need to look elsewhere for what underpins that statement from a legal perspective. There has been further discussion about it on this thread. 

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Showing as deleted on MI but still in searches.

As Alamy has said they'll look into it again presumably they'll stay in MI as greyed out.

Anyway I've requested reinstatement on the grounds that Net R don't own the IP in a sculpture and even if they did a photograph wouldn't infringe it.

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I have 5 deletions. It's coincidental but only one shows a train. The others are mostly of commuters within the station concourse. I wonder how the laws in Scotland may differ from those of the rest of the UK regarding IPR

In general rights here are less restrictive than in England, but I don't have specifics for this case.

In trying to find specific information about Glasgow Central Station, from where most of my deletions came, I haven't found anything in the general t&d, but they do a pay-for backscenes tour and say this:

"2.4 Photography will be permitted on the Tour at the discretion of the Tour Guide. Users will be informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station. Users are required to confirm with the Tour Guide, if they are in any doubt, as to where and when they can take photographs. No video footage is permitted at any point or place within the tour or within Glasgow Central Station."

Nothing restricting use of photographs taken on the tour.

 

It would be interesting to find out exactly "when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station". In fact, I will email them right now to find out.

 

I've been on that tour. If I remember correctly we were told to take as many pictures as we liked. From what I recall there was no mention of selling them. However I'd need to check dates to find if any of my deleted images were taken on that day, (I think they may have been although not as part of the actual tour) and even if they were it doesn't automatically mean I have been given permission to sell.

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we need to look elsewhere for what underpins that statement from a legal perspective.

 

As I (merely) suggested, contract law might be a place to look. But unless Alamy changes its mind it's a bit academic as regards getting pix back on Alamy. It's hopefully not going to make anyone stop selling images elsewhere.

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I also received the email this morning advising me that five of my images were being pulled. I have replied to the image management team and also 'phoned Alamy before coming here…..to six pages !!!

The link that was supplied to the bylaws stating that images taken on "their" property cannot be used for selling/commercial purposes is fair enough….However….the five photos that were pulled…three were taken in the 1970s….and two were taken in the 1960s…Network Rail did not even come into being until 2002 !!

As Network Rail are the "owners" of a lot of the infrastructure as well….most UK rail pictures could therefore be under threat now.

How sad that a national company such as this employs jobsworths with nothing better to do….are pictures of steam trains from the 1960s going to really cause problems for them?

If they can apply IP retrospectively, i.e., before they even existed, how many historical pictures are going to be destined to never see the light of day?

A slippery slope indeed….

 

You say "The link that was supplied to the bylaws stating that images taken on "their" property cannot be used for selling/commercial purposes is fair enough"   It's a very important point though that the link you are referring to are not bylaws. As far as I can see there is no bylaw that specifically relates to photography - either taking photos or selling them. If that is correct then we need to look elsewhere for what underpins that statement from a legal perspective. There has been further discussion about it on this thread. 

 

 

Point taken Keith….the link supplied by Alamy stated that it was in violation of their IP and I surmised that it must be written into their bylaws but I suspect that you are correct and that it may be toothless guidance only…maybe Alamy will confirm wether it is actually a bylaw or guidance only….

Photography

You can take photographs at stations provided you do not sell them. However, you are not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment, such as CCTV cameras.

Flash photography on platforms is not allowed at any time. It can distract train drivers and train despatch staff and so is potentially very dangerous.

Tripod legs must be kept away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. On busy stations, you may not be allowed to use a tripod because it could be a dangerous obstruction to passengers.

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I have 5 deletions. It's coincidental but only one shows a train. The others are mostly of commuters within the station concourse. I wonder how the laws in Scotland may differ from those of the rest of the UK regarding IPR

In general rights here are less restrictive than in England, but I don't have specifics for this case.

In trying to find specific information about Glasgow Central Station, from where most of my deletions came, I haven't found anything in the general t&d, but they do a pay-for backscenes tour and say this:

"2.4 Photography will be permitted on the Tour at the discretion of the Tour Guide. Users will be informed, prior to starting the tour, of when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station. Users are required to confirm with the Tour Guide, if they are in any doubt, as to where and when they can take photographs. No video footage is permitted at any point or place within the tour or within Glasgow Central Station."

Nothing restricting use of photographs taken on the tour.

 

It would be interesting to find out exactly "when and where photography is permitted in Glasgow Central Station". In fact, I will email them right now to find out.

 

I've been on that tour. If I remember correctly we were told to take as many pictures as we liked. From what I recall there was no mention of selling them. However I'd need to check dates to find if any of my deleted images were taken on that day, (I think they may have been although not as part of the actual tour) and even if they were it doesn't automatically mean I have been given permission to sell.

 

No, true, no automatic permission to sell, but also no indication that it's forbidden.

 

BTW, another place (in the US) does have 'forbidden to publish photographs' specifically on their tickets, in small print - but at the same time, they're on all social media (including a huge Flickr group) positively inviting people to share their images taken on the premises.

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we need to look elsewhere for what underpins that statement from a legal perspective.

 

As I (merely) suggested, contract law might be a place to look. But unless Alamy changes its mind it's a bit academic as regards getting pix back on Alamy. It's hopefully not going to make anyone stop selling images elsewhere.

 

 

Bear in mind that your ticket is a contract with the train operating company, not Network Fail. The operating company has a contract to run its trains on "Network Rail's" infrastructure and 'may' include some of NR's rules into its contract with you, the paying traveller. I hate these publically funded bodies denying the public, their paymasters after all, access and creating petty rules.

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Maybe the press should take this up, as it is practically hindering them to perform proper reporting. 

They will not be able to legally aquire train station pictures that are not Network Rail approved. 

 

Maybe a headline like

 

"Network Rail censors press becoming monopolist picture provider"

Edited by hdh
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NR must like photography, after all they sponsor the Landscape Photographer of the Year competition.

http://www.take-a-view.co.uk/

 

I wonder if all the many railway magazines that are out there are aware of this?

Can't believe all their relevant content is in future going to have to be NR authorised.

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we need to look elsewhere for what underpins that statement from a legal perspective.

 

As I (merely) suggested, contract law might be a place to look. But unless Alamy changes its mind it's a bit academic as regards getting pix back on Alamy. It's hopefully not going to make anyone stop selling images elsewhere.

 

 

Bear in mind that your ticket is a contract with the train operating company, not Network Fail. The operating company has a contract to run its trains on "Network Rail's" infrastructure and 'may' include some of NR's rules into its contract with you, the paying traveller. I hate these publically funded bodies denying the public, their paymasters after all, access and creating petty rules.

 

 

That did cross my mind as well that the ticket won't directly be with Network Rail. However, it's far too complex (for me) to go down that route. My starting point is that if I have bought a ticket then I have accepted whatever terms Network Rail decide to impose, whether that's right or wrong. 

 

My questions relate to any situation where I find myself on the station without having purchased a ticket. So that could include being on the concourse at Kings Cross Station or being on the platform side of the barriers because the ticket gates were all open. So, I've found myself in that situation, taken a photo and sold it to the Daily Bugle. What do Network Rail do about it?

 

Sorry Mark, I was a bit abrupt earlier. I do agree that additional restrictions beyond the bylaws can be imposed on what I can do in the station, and that could be the case if a contract is in place. But I don't see how just crossing the threshold of the station brings a contract into place. I do see how buying a ticket does though.

Edited by Keith Douglas

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