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Had several of mine removed too, including some taken from a nearby public road.

 

They have taken down three of my images of Manchester Victoria which only came under Network Rail jurisdiction this month, and I can't see how their  conditons can apply retrospectively - or are they planning to chase every picture taken of their stations over the past 150 years or so????

 

Alamy have taken the pragmatic line of least resistance, as is already noted, but I wonder to where this line leads.  Am I now barred from providing newsworthy images to newspapers if they are taken on Network Rail property? Is this not restricting the freedom of the press?  What about all the other psedo-private organisations which have take possession of publically funded property such as hospitals - will we be barred from selling images from them too? Very dubious.

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Thanks for your feedback, we do have expert legal advice and we'll take a second look at this in light of the strength of feeling but we’re not making any guarantees that we'll be able to change our view. 

 

Cheers

 

Alamy

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can't copy the link but interesting article on the web from Tom Sheppard who made a freedom of information request on photography and filming to network rail 

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most commuters aren't really aware of the difference in responsibilities between the train companies and network rail - so if you load images of trains in a negative light - many will associate that with network rail

 

so if an earlier poster believes this is about managing their image and removing negative photography - it probably won't be successful

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Same Email, 6 images have been removed  :angry: none of them from an area where a ticket was necessary but all of them within the main concourse of the buildings. I think I might go out and take lots of exterior photos of network rail stations and take as many as possible that show the interior but from just outside the doorway.

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Yup just asked the same question on quality of images etc

 

 

Hi All

 

Has anyone else had an e-mail off Alamy regarding Network Rail asking for removal of images? I took a number of images of the Ken Dodd Statue at Lime Street Station, on my way out of the station, funnily enough after taking some photo for Norther Rail. 

 

A couple of the images are EPK24B EPK24R & there are roughly 10 in total.

 

Network Rail have said I'm violating their exclusive intellectual property rights & pointed to this link about not being able to sell them without permission: -

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/777.aspx?cd=1

 

Now like the recent Barclay's deletions, I hope they come to some sense, but wondered what everyone's thoughts are?

Thanks

Chris

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Thanks for your feedback, we do have expert legal advice and we'll take a second look at this in light of the strength of feeling but we’re not making any guarantees that we'll be able to change our view. 

 

Cheers

 

Alamy

Good to hear and very fair.

This NR "policy" obviously hasn't been thought through as it's riven with contradictions. But to be fair it's not Alamy's fight. Their job is to sell licences that can't come back and bite them in the bum.

Ken Dodd statue here as well. And they're not asking, the images are already greyed out in MI.

Edited by spacecadet

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From 1st September 2014 Network Rail became a public sector company, answerable to Parliament. I think I might write a letter to my MP about unreasonable restrictions on trade and Network Rail's attempt to create a monopoly in photography IPR at stations that they control.

i like that Keith, good idea

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Gawd forbid that someone "might" get an image of a train arriving on time!!!!!! :D

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I've just written to the Secretary of State for Transport seeking his views on the matter

 

patrick.mcloughlin.mp@parliament.uk

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Although I don't like it, I respect Alamy's response to this and I am sure that there are very good reasons why they, as a stock agency, have taken this action whereas as individual photographers we might have taken a different stance. 

 

Putting that to one side, it's not clear to me what penalties an organisation might actually be able to enforce once the picture has been taken. As Mark alluded to if they don't want photographs taken they should either stop people taking them in the first place (an impossible task in these days of smartphones) or get people to enter a contractual agreement (i.e. buy a ticket) that includes clauses that restrict the taking or use of photographs. If I've wandered into the station without buying a ticket (e.g the concourse at Kings Cross), taken a photo and then sold it, on what legal basis can Network Rail claim against me? Or against the party that uses the photograph if it's for editorial use?

 

What makes things even less clear is the fact that Network Rail's assets are, in fact, publicly owned, so in entering the station are you on private or public land?!
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I have had 28 images removed - incidentally its worth checking them as one was of a Eurostar train at the platform at the Gare du Nord Station in Paris, but in the caption I mentioned that it had set off from St Pancras, so I will ask Alamy to re-instate this image

 

I will also be writing to my MP copied to the Secretary of State for transport. 

 

I am pleased to hear Alamy will be taking a closer look at this

 

 

Kumar

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(Double post)

Edited by Doc

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 If I've wandered into the station without buying a ticket (e.g the concourse at Kings Cross), taken a photo and then sold it, on what legal basis can Network Rail claim against me? Or against the party that uses the photograph if it's for editorial use?

 

Breach of condition, potentially, if the condition was clearly stated at the entrance. Which it very probably wasn't, which is why, as I said, NR is going at it the lazy way.

Why put up signs at 2500 stations when you can press a few keys?

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this isn't Alamy's issue - its Network Rail and whoever comes next

 

write to your MP and the Minister - id lay money that the Minister hasn't been formally briefed on the matter - and that in itself will cause a review 

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This is bull***t! CLEAR CASE OF CORPORATE BULLYING.

 

Obviously 'restraint of trade' and 'human rights abuse'

 

C'mon Alamy. Have you got the cojones to tell 'em where to get off!!

 

Richard

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A sample letter would be helpful, from someone who has a better legal mind than I do - any offers?

 

Alex

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If you notice on that link they sent, they mention "photographs of surveillance cameras", no doubt it will come under the terrorist bill, its a lazy way to get a blanket ban and as someone else said what about the historical photos for the last 150 years? We are documenting changing history

Edited by ChrisC

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A sample letter would be helpful, from someone who has a better legal mind than I do - any offers?

 

Alex

+1

 

Kumar

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Railway byelaws:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf 

 

I can't find any mention of photography. They could apply some of the byelaws when you are on site to restrict your photographic activity (health and safety in particular) but I can't see any restrictions relating to photographs that would apply after you have left the site.

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As I said, I deduce that the restriction purports to be a condition of entry, under contract law, not byelaws. So it's a different angle that the NT thing.

Edited by spacecadet

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Railway byelaws:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf 

 

I can't find any mention of photography. They could apply some of the byelaws when you are on site to restrict your photographic activity (health and safety in particular) but I can't see any restrictions relating to photographs that would apply after you have left the site.

this link

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/777.aspx?cd=1

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I had a closer look at the list of deleted images and in fact the pictures I mentioned of Eastbourne and Norwich have not been deleted. Although my photo reference included those names the pictures deleted were Liverpool Street and Victoria. So it does appear that NR are requesting removal of shots of stations that they manage directly. I fear it may be only a matter of time before the operating companies jump on the same bandwagon. I notice one of my deleted image is of a steam locomotive next to a modern locomotive at Kings Cross. The station itself is barely visible.

 

Every month in the various railway magazines there are dozens of photographs of trains and stations which form a continuing historical record of our railway system, a record that stretches back more than a hundred years. There are also numerous books with photographs detailing the architecture and infrastructure of the network. Currently traditional signalboxes are disappearing and in a few years they will all be gone. Are we going to be prevented from recording the passing of these historic structures? What's next - churches, airports, motorway service stations, village halls? Photography has recorded the changing face of Britain since it was first invented. There now seem to be more and more restrictions on what can be photographed and published. Future historians will be the poorer for it.

 

Patrick

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Does anybody know under what byelaws Network Rail are doing this? (Similar question to that relating to the National Trust). It can't be a contractual restriction (like say when you buy a ticket for a sporting event or concert) because some of my photos were taken from a position where I didn't need to have bought a ticket.

 

 
When you buy a ticket you agree to the terms and conditions defined by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage
 
As far as I can tell, neither has anything to say about photography. However, the byelaws prohibit loitering and the Railways Regulation Act of 1840 prohibits trespassing. My guess is that Network Rail can set conditions for enthusiasts who wish to hang around at the ends of platforms photographing trains as they are giving them permission to loiter. Whether they can apply those conditions to photographs taken by ticket-holding passengers while making a journey might be a different matter. 
 
For example, the one photograph of mine that is to be removed is a grab shot of a steam locomotive which happened to pass through Bristol Temple Meads while I was waiting for a connecting train. I did not delay my journey to take the photograph so I was not loitering and had a valid ticket so was not trespassing.

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I might also submit a Freedom of Information Request (FOI) to Network Rail asking for a breakdown of licences issued to photographers by station. I might also ask for details of the photography related IPR that they hold.

 

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/FOI/ 

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