Thyrsis Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Just had a sale from March 2018 refunded - after 10 months! Whilst I am happy that the image resold, presumably to the same buyer, for a higher fee the debit is ‘cleared’ funds and the new sale will take the usual few months to clear. This takes my cleared funds into the red! It would be fairer if both refund and sale were ‘uncleared’ until the new sale clears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_rabe Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Still think Alamy should shoulder the responsibility of refunds. Certainly after a month! 10 months is just ridiculous. Effectively, you can never count on how much you have made if they let this go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colblimp Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 This is ridiculous - another thing Alamy should sort out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starsphinx Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Isnt there like legal limits for refunds - meaning Alamy could quite properly refuse them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thyrsis Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 I guess that as the sale was refunded and then sold again for more Alamy are happy to accept that. I have to trust that the image was not used in a book 10 months ago and is only going to be used now. I just don’t think the refund should be given unless the buyer pays upfront for the new usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starsphinx Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I dont suppose it was a case of the wrong licence so refunding and buying the right one - in which case why couldn't Alamy just do an upgrade of the difference in price and give you whatever percentage of the upgrade rather than a refund, wait a bit, new purchase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Yates Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 ALAMY should impose a refund policy that limits the time period that images can be refunded. Personal use images should be exempt from any kind of refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 It is common practice in the stock photo industry to issue a refund if an image is billed, but then not used by the client, or if the usage changes. There is no time limit on a refund, and never has been. Publishers will sometimes put a book together, get billed by a stock photo agency, but then delay or cancel the book. In that case publishers would get a refund. Cancellation or delay of a book may be do to an inability to finance the printing, a poor initial response from booksellers, or an unpublishable manuscript. Sometimes the publisher changes the use of the image resulting in a cancellation of the original invoice followed by a rebilling at a higher or lower amount depending on the new usage. Sometimes the final content of a book is fluid until the book is on press. The same general conditions for a refund can apply to other non book publishing projects such as advertising or news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvallee Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 50 minutes ago, Bill Brooks said: There is no time limit on a refund, and never has been. From the Alamy Licence Agreement ("LA"): 10. Licence cancellation If you haven't used the Image(s)/Footage file you can cancel the Licence and get a full refund within 30 days of the Invoice date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 16 hours ago, gvallee said: From the Alamy Licence Agreement ("LA"): 10. Licence cancellation If you haven't used the Image(s)/Footage file you can cancel the Licence and get a full refund within 30 days of the Invoice date. If Alamy were to try to enforce that 30 day provision they would have no clients, because other stock agencies do not enforce their refund provisions. Alamy operates in a marketplace. Alamy is not a tight little island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I didn't think the Red Arrows could fly in weather like this. Seriously, whoever it is, if you have something to say, say it, but will you stop giving red arrows to truthful statements by experienced contributors whose input most of us actually value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I can understand that Alamy wants to -- and even has to -- keep clients happy. Also, it's obviously up to Alamy if they want to bend the rules that they made. However, if they decide to break their own rules, I think that Alamy should absorb the financial loss (especially when refunds are given months after the fact), not the contributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starsphinx Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I agree with @John Mitchell - if Alamy want to give a refund after longer than say 60 days or 3 months (argue among yourselves the time frame) then the refund should not come from the contributor. It should be reasonable for a contributor to think right that sale was x time ago so no chance of it being refunded now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinS Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Starsphinx said: I agree with @John Mitchell - if Alamy want to give a refund after longer than say 60 days or 3 months (argue among yourselves the time frame) then the refund should not come from the contributor. It should be reasonable for a contributor to think right that sale was x time ago so no chance of it being refunded now. Agreed as well, but no need to argue the time frame. The terms say 30 days. If Alamy wants another time frame, change the terms. Having written terms (and prices) that are meaningless is the path to chaos (oops, already there). 21 hours ago, Bill Brooks said: There is no time limit on a refund, and never has been. I worked with an agency in New England that would never have worked like this. The current chaos in the industry is the result of having no rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, KevinS said: Agreed as well, but no need to argue the time frame. The terms say 30 days. If Alamy wants another time frame, change the terms. Having written terms (and prices) that are meaningless is the path to chaos (oops, already there). I worked with an agent in New England that would never have worked like this. The current chaos in the industry is the result of having no rules. Yes, having unenforced rules like this can be counter-productive. For instance, allowing refunds beyond the 30-day limit lets buyers abuse the system and continue to shop around for cheaper images, confident that they will be able to return the purchased ones without any hassle. And I agree about the breakdown of rules being a major cause of the pickle we're all in now. I used to also do a lot of freelance travel writing, and I watched the same thing happen there. The whole business model went to pieces, and it became impossible to make a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCat Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Red arrow person keeping me busy giving green. What is the point of this? Paulette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinS Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 21 hours ago, Bill Brooks said: It is common practice in the stock photo industry to issue a refund if an image is billed, but then not used by the client, or if the usage changes. I once was contacted by a major retailer about a catalog cover. They asked for a larger file; I sent it. They asked for a file in a different format; I sent it. We went back and forth over the fee. After coming to agreement they asked for an invoice; I sent it. After more than 90 days, I asked about payment. They said they changed their mind, and won't be using my image. I explained that I had done work at their request and the fee was due. Maybe not the common practice, but they paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Bill Brooks said: If Alamy were to try to enforce that 30 day provision they would have no clients, because other stock agencies do not enforce their refund provisions. Alamy operates in a marketplace. Alamy is not a tight little island. Sure, it's a jungle out there, and Alamy can bend their own rules if they want to or think they have to. However, is it fair to pass along the financial loss to contributors who have no say in the matter? Hate to say it, but this smacks of an abuse of power IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regen Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Yet another area of the Alamy system which is not fit for purpose. Just because "other" agencies allow this practice does not make it right. I have never experienced this with the other agencies i work with (OK they do not tell me about a sale until they have the money in the bag) but neither do they retrospectively deduct monies from my account 9 months down the track. With direct sales to mag and book publishers of around 20,000 in the last 20 years I have never had an instance when a client asked for their money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nacke Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Nobody likes refunds, but they are a sad fact of life in the business of licensing images and in my opinion Alamy handles it OK. Shall we talk about dealing with corporate clients in 2019..... Just to add that a corporate client, who had agreed to pay on review of the preview images now emails me that "The check is in the mail and can I allow them to download images." the answer is NO. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptoprocta Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 14 hours ago, John Mitchell said: Sure, it's a jungle out there, and Alamy can bend their own rules if they want to or think they have to. However, is it fair to pass along the financial loss to contributors who have no say in the matter? Hate to say it, but this smacks of an abuse of power IMO. G has been doing if for many years. No-one likes it, of course, but they have a long history of disrespecting contributors, which Alamy sadly seems to be trying to emulate. Though I've read of long term refunds on Alamy before, where a contributor has gone into the red due to a large refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Cryptoprocta said: G has been doing if for many years. No-one likes it, of course. Can't say I'm surprised to hear that. I have two refunds this month (unusual for me, touch wood), and both were within the 30-day limit. However, if I had one after 10 months, as the OP reported, I would be upset indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thyrsis Posted February 26, 2019 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 Even more annoying is the fact that the new sale should have cleared 10 days ago. If it doesn’t clear tomorrow we won’t get a pay out this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbimages Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Resurrecting this thread! I had a refund today, of a sale from 13 December. The sale cleared late January and proceeds included in my February payout. It was a $$$ sale, so it hurts! I really don't think refunds after such a long time should be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just had a refund, which is no big deal, but the pic has obviously been published! wtf! https://www.ft.com/content/be8052f8-6db8-11e9-a9a5-351eeaef6d84 Santa Lucia station, Venice © Alamy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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