Serious Questions that needs serious answers!

[Aaron]

Hello everyone, 

     I been reading and doing what I can to fix my issues with my photos. I been trying to take in what everyone keeps repeating to me. But I do have some serious Questions.

 

First I want to say before anyone goes through my portfolio, please do understand that I am slowly correcting everything. I do freelance 24/7 and getting to my Alamy portfolio is not so always easy when I am going here and there and taking photos and editing them very little and sending them to my clients. So I am doing all I can be patient. 

 

Now I have been correcting my captions, detailing what, who and where of the image content. I have applied for live news. What I am going through in my head is that when I search on Alamy taking on the sense I am a buyer for a website, maginize, or any editorial use. When I do a search I want to find something very specific, not say cute girl, cool boy, big dog little cat, blue car so on so forth. That would give me 1,000 to 10,000 images which no one is going to sit there and go through all those images. I wouldn't and I don't think any sane human would. So they would be specific with their search, who in the photo, what is going on and when it was. If it is very vague or they may be interested in the rest of the photos from the point of time of the photo meaning having other shots of what is going on in the photo buyers would probably more likely search just for that. Like a fair in the county the had a famous band come to play but wanted to search for other shots of the fair and hoping they do find some. So my question is, are buyers are more interested in a detail description or just a very vague one? 

 

I know many of you state that my keywords are not good and they do not pertain to the content in the image. Yes I do use a keyword generator which scans the image and creates based on image. I do batch them with other images when it is an event. But I have been adding certain keywords that do pertain to the content in the image. I am slowly going through my old uploads and doing that. But my question is this, how effective is the keywords over caption?

 

Are the buys going off of keywords which will lead them to go through 100s to 1,000s of photos to find the right one or are they going more off of caption of the photo?

 

Also is everyone using all 50 keywords and Super keywords?

 

I have seen other's photos and looks like on some photos they not all 50 are being used. Do the optimization matter when submitting the images?  

 

How does keywords effect ranking of images when searching based on content of the photo?

 

Like for instance, Road Trip the band which is being processed still. Will my images show up based on Rock band or Road trip band?

 

Also will location and event they were at matter? 

 

If I have captions state location, who is and what is going on and my keywords are off based a bit how does that effect the search results when buyers search? 

 

Again if a buy is looking for specific band, event or something that is happening in the photo. Animal, event, action sport, whatever is going on. The caption should state that which would limit the search results down. I am just really trying to figure all this out and why some are making 100s to 1,000s on here. When I am trying to do everyone else is doing. I am trying to make all of this work. 

 

Also I am not getting any CTR more views than anything. So that is why I wonder, are buyers looking for certain photos of who, where, and what is going on in the photo or is it just a vague results and hope to for the best out of the 100 to 1,000 photos your photos is the one picked. 

 

Again I am just trying to figure all of this out and do all of this the correct way.

[Colblimp]

I'll just answer a few questions, I'm sure other forumites will answer more.

 

I've never used, and never will, use a keyword generator.  A human is better than a computer.

 

Yes, some buyers search very vaguely, some are more specific.  If your image for that search isn't on the first 2 or 3 pages, well, it probably won't get seen by the buyer for that search.

 

Don't bother trying to reach 50 keywords for each pic, totally unnecessary.  However, 10 supertags are important, as is filling in the Optional page.

 

Your Road Trip band pics will probably turn up in searches for an actual road trip, road repairs, a road disappearing into the distance, someone tripping over, etc.  It's what happens, unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

[Aaron]

That is what I was thinking, if 50 keywords is not really needed. Than I'll do what is most relevant to the content of the photo.

[sb photos]

1 minute ago, Aaron said:

Than I'll do what is most relevant to the content of the photo.

 

That's what I do. Very rarely can I add 40+ relevant tags, sometimes I struggle to find 10. Padding out with irrelevant tags only harms your ranking.

[Aaron]

5 minutes ago, sb photos said:

 

That's what I do. Very rarely can I add 40+ relevant tags, sometimes I struggle to find 10. Padding out with irrelevant tags only harms your ranking.

 

I would probably do, is use the generator to get a starting point. Delete the ones I don't want to use and add in the ones that point on the content in the photo. I think that would be the more appropriate approach.  

[Joseph Clemson]

Plus one for not using a keyword generator. The kewording machine inside your head is far superior. This is especially true of editorial images where precise and accurate detail iof each image is required. Processign a batch of imageswith identical keywords usually leads to some images not containing features which are recorded in the caption or keywords. This will hit your CTR.

 

Alamy doe not give precise details of how their search engine works, but we know from what has been said by them, and from contributors experimenting that captions are strongly weighted. Supertags are also very important. The other keywords play a significant part, but make sure the captions and supertags are as descriptive and detailed of the central subject of the image as is possible.

 

Many buyers are busy photo editors who only have time to look at one or two pages of images. A few searchers go through many thousands of images. For this reason your search ranking matters if you want to be among the first images buyers see. We don't know the exact details of how search ranking is forumlated, but we do know CTR forms a part of it.

 

Out of nearly 3500 images I have 89 which have the full complement of 50 keywords. Most have 30 or fewer. I don't even use all the supertags if there is nothing significant to add.

 

The location field in the Optional tab is not searchable, though potential buyers can see that  information when they zoom the image. Put location in caption and supertag when it is significant. Leave it out entirely when it is not. Put it in the additional info field if there is no room in the caption. You would be amazed how many people put the location of their image of a daffodil in the caption when it is of no relevance to the image , which then risks the image showing up as a false positive in a search for that particular location. Another downward hit on their CTR.

 

If you are submitting such a massive volume of images that a keyword generator is an essential part of your workflow, then I would encourage you to be more selective in what you process and submit- two or three images of any given subject is enough in most cases. Use the time saved in processing to spend more time keywording. One thing you might notice here is that not every image which sells is a great image, many are rather nondescript. What usually sells is the fact that the image has been carefully captioned and kwyworded, and is part of a carefuly curated portfolio built up over a long time.

 

If your CTR is well below 0.5, consider my suggestion of an earlier post and create a new pseudonym and put some new images in that, using a more conservative approach to keywords etc.

 

I find it rather sobering that more than one of the contributors I see reporting their sales on the forun each month have better sales on even fewer images in their portfolio than mine. Quantity is not the most important factor at Alamy.

 

 

[meanderingemu]

13 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

I would probably do, is use the generator to get a starting point. Delete the ones I don't want to use and add in the ones that point on the content in the photo. I think that would be the more appropriate approach.  

 

 

Generator give you only the basic ones, that you should actually have. and create lots of noise, with dangers of false hit.  I use my own images as generators, plus i have presets of KW by now. 

 

remember if you use a generator you are using all the same KW as everyone, how is that going to differentiate you in the search.  Yes generator makes it quicker, but the goal is to be presented to the clients. 1000 well keyworded images  is much better than 3000 poor ones

[NYCat]

If you want to see exactly what words people use to search go to your Dashboard.... Alamy Measures ... All of Alamy. You can even put a in search word to see the searches for that subject. One column will show you how many pages were looked at.

 

Paulette

[spacecadet]

4 hours ago, Colblimp said:

.

 

Your Road Trip band pics will probably turn up in searches for an actual road trip, road repairs, a road disappearing into the distance, someone tripping over, etc.  It's what happens, unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

However, OP, the phrase tag "road trip" or "band road trip" will rank more highly than "road" or "trip" on its own, so the images should appear first in a search. You can't prevent false returns but you can push them down the search with phrase tags. I would probably omit the tag "road" on its own altogether.

[meanderingemu]

1 hour ago, NYCat said:

If you want to see exactly what words people use to search go to your Dashboard.... Alamy Measures ... All of Alamy. You can even put a in search word to see the searches for that subject. One column will show you how many pages were looked at.

 

Paulette

 

 

Also analyse your results for your hits.  Their is loads of information to be gathered from My Alamy, and lots will provide serious answer for  your Serious Questions

[John Morrison]

5 hours ago, Aaron said:

What I am going through in my head is that when I search on Alamy taking on the sense I am a buyer for a website, maginize, or any editorial use. When I do a search I want to find something very specific, not say cute girl, cool boy, big dog little cat, blue car so on so forth. That would give me 1,000 to 10,000 images which no one is going to sit there and go through all those images. I wouldn't and I don't think any sane human would. So they would be specific with their search, who in the photo, what is going on and when it was. If it is very vague or they may be interested in the rest of the photos from the point of time of the photo meaning having other shots of what is going on in the photo buyers would probably more likely search just for that. Like a fair in the county the had a famous band come to play but wanted to search for other shots of the fair and hoping they do find some. So my question is, are buyers are more interested in a detail description or just a very vague one? 

 

It's instructive to spend a bit of time being a consumer - rather than a creator - of images. Searching the Alamy database, and taking account of the results, gives us some useful hints about the best ways to caption and keyword our pix...

[Matt Ashmore]

4 hours ago, Joseph Clemson said:

If your CTR is well below 0.5, consider my suggestion of an earlier post and create a new pseudonym and put some new images in that, using a more conservative approach to keywords etc.

 

 

Would that make any different though? Does each pseudonym's CTR apply separately or does in fact (as I personally assume) that the 'total CTR' apply across all pseudonyms?

I don't know if anyone has actually tested this well enough to say with any certainty?

[Cryptoprocta]

6 hours ago, Aaron said:

Hello everyone, 

     I been reading and doing what I can to fix my issues with my photos. I been trying to take in what everyone keeps repeating to me. But I do have some serious Questions.

 

First I want to say before anyone goes through my portfolio, please do understand that I am slowly correcting everything. I do freelance 24/7 and getting to my Alamy portfolio is not so always easy when I am going here and there and taking photos and editing them very little and sending them to my clients. So I am doing all I can be patient. 

 

Now I have been correcting my captions, detailing what, who and where of the image content. I have applied for live news. What I am going through in my head is that when I search on Alamy taking on the sense I am a buyer for a website, maginize, or any editorial use. When I do a search I want to find something very specific, not say cute girl, cool boy, big dog little cat, blue car so on so forth. That would give me 1,000 to 10,000 images which no one is going to sit there and go through all those images. I wouldn't and I don't think any sane human would. So they would be specific with their search, who in the photo, what is going on and when it was. If it is very vague or they may be interested in the rest of the photos from the point of time of the photo meaning having other shots of what is going on in the photo buyers would probably more likely search just for that. Like a fair in the county the had a famous band come to play but wanted to search for other shots of the fair and hoping they do find some. So my question is, are buyers are more interested in a detail description or just a very vague one? 

 

I know many of you state that my keywords are not good and they do not pertain to the content in the image. Yes I do use a keyword generator which scans the image and creates based on image. I do batch them with other images when it is an event. But I have been adding certain keywords that do pertain to the content in the image. I am slowly going through my old uploads and doing that. But my question is this, how effective is the keywords over caption?

 

Are the buys going off of keywords which will lead them to go through 100s to 1,000s of photos to find the right one or are they going more off of caption of the photo?

 

Also is everyone using all 50 keywords and Super keywords?

 

I have seen other's photos and looks like on some photos they not all 50 are being used. Do the optimization matter when submitting the images?  

 

How does keywords effect ranking of images when searching based on content of the photo?

 

Like for instance, Road Trip the band which is being processed still. Will my images show up based on Rock band or Road trip band?

 

Also will location and event they were at matter? 

 

If I have captions state location, who is and what is going on and my keywords are off based a bit how does that effect the search results when buyers search? 

 

Again if a buy is looking for specific band, event or something that is happening in the photo. Animal, event, action sport, whatever is going on. The caption should state that which would limit the search results down. I am just really trying to figure all this out and why some are making 100s to 1,000s on here. When I am trying to do everyone else is doing. I am trying to make all of this work. 

 

Also I am not getting any CTR more views than anything. So that is why I wonder, are buyers looking for certain photos of who, where, and what is going on in the photo or is it just a vague results and hope to for the best out of the 100 to 1,000 photos your photos is the one picked. 

 

Again I am just trying to figure all of this out and do all of this the correct way.

One thing you need to realise is the search algorithm is changing all the time. For example, for a long time caption has been trumping keywords, but that could change any minute, and as I haven't done my own tests for at least a month, it could have changed already.

For at least a year, some searches have a different result when searched by relevant or 'creative' and some subject had the front page the same in both searches.

I dont' think anyone ever knew what 'creative' means on Alamy anyway. From series I had, when the relevant/creative searches are different, I can't work out why some in the series are deemed more 'creative' than others.

 

You also need to know that any word in the caption or keywords can be merged with any other word from the caption or keyword, even out of a keyword phrase to give search results you never considered and which are totally wrong for your image. That can mean for example, if you had a photo of Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe, your photo will be returned in searches for Joe Doe, Joe Jane, Jane Bloggs and Jane Joe (etc). In the particular search I test that on, that particular issue wasn't so bad last month, but in previous times, the wrong searches have trumped the correct names. But again, that could vary between different names. Nothing we can do about that (other than to mitigate it by not adding irrelevant words to the mix.

 

Look at Alamy Measures. You might be very surprised and bemused re what people search for. Also most searchers are not very specific at all, but a very few are very specific. Some only look at one page, some look at  thousands of images.

 

Also you have no control over which of your images comes highest in a particular search. For example in your case, maybe lots of your photos have Wisconsin as a keyword. But you have absolutely no control over which one comes first, and the top one might delight you, or might dismay you. That might be the only one which shows on the front page, or maybe you'll have a few.

 

All we can do is keep our keywords as relevant as possible. Adding extra (relevant but marginal) keywords might gain you a sale from one very specific buyer, but the more keywords, the more likelihood of false juxtapostions and possible lowering of your CTR and the mysterious Alamy Rank (if either of these are currently as important as they once were).

 

We have a lot less control over search than many of us think. And an algorithm change can turn that tapsalteerie overnight.

 

For what it's worth, add my voice to those not using auto keyworders. I have looked at them, and the time taken to delete irrelevent words and insert others make it a waste of time. Also a lot of them seem to rely on what previous 'similar' photos have used, but if these keywords are irrelevant, it's GIGO, and a vicious circle.

 

 

 

 

[John Morrison]

5 minutes ago, Cryptoprocta said:

Look at Alamy Measures. You might be very surprised and bemused re what people search for. Also most searchers are not very specific at all, but a very few are very specific. Some only look at one page, some look at  thousands of images.

 

And a few dozy people seem convinced that what they're buying is not a picture at all... but what's in the picture. 😮

[Matt Ashmore]

4 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

 

And a few dozy people seem convinced that what they're buying is not a picture at all... but what's in the picture. 😮

 

Yes, I'm convinced that I suffered from one of these a couple of months ago when I had a photo of some ceramic garden ornaments refunded.

[Cryptoprocta]

2 minutes ago, Matt Ashmore said:

 

Yes, I'm convinced that I suffered from one of these a couple of months ago when I had a photo of some ceramic garden ornaments refunded.

And I've had a few for images of boxes of tablets when that's what the buyer thought they were getting. After getting a few, I wrote in the extra info something like "NB, This is a stock photo of medication, not the medication" and haven't had any of that type refunded since. Support says we'd be surprised at how often people think they're buying a product.

Not everyone has a clue what a stock photo is.

[John Morrison]

5 minutes ago, Cryptoprocta said:

Not everyone has a clue what a stock photo is.

 

Or that 'royalty free' has nothing to do with our royal family... and nor is it free...

[Joseph Clemson]

1 hour ago, Matt Ashmore said:

 

Would that make any different though? Does each pseudonym's CTR apply separately or does in fact (as I personally assume) that the 'total CTR' apply across all pseudonyms?

I don't know if anyone has actually tested this well enough to say with any certainty?

 

It is over a year ago since I did this, but when I created a new pseudonym for my Live News uploads, it came in above most of my previous pseudonymns  in the BHZ search. (Digression: of course, sods law said that less than a year later I had Live News privileges revoked, so that pseudonymn has rather stagnated).  My thinking is that if a contributor has a single pseudonymn which has garnered a low CTR over several years and contains lots of images with less than optimal keywording, it is very difficult to improve that CTR or search ranking because the deadweight of all the old images drags it down, even when newer images are better keyworded. A new pseudonym of carefully curated photos can build an improved CTR and search ranking without that deadweight. Even if a new pseudonym were to start with only the same CTR or search ranking as the old one, it is more likely to improve without the drag effect of the older images. This is my theory but it is born of a modicum of experience.

[Joseph Clemson]

2 hours ago, Matt Ashmore said:

 

Would that make any different though? Does each pseudonym's CTR apply separately or does in fact (as I personally assume) that the 'total CTR' apply across all pseudonyms?

I don't know if anyone has actually tested this well enough to say with any certainty?

 

I'm thinking you may be right, Matt, that the CTR element of our overall placing in the rankings is determined on the basis of the total average all our pseudonymns. However, it may still be worth creating a new pseudonym as it will still be easier to improve the CTR of that pseudonym with carefully curated keywords etc. The images from this pseudonym will appear ahead of other images/pseudonymns from the same contributor, giving a way of promoting our best images over our mediocre ones in any given subject. ( I know you don't have any mediocre images, Matt, but lesser mortals like myself find life is full of them )

[meanderingemu]

14 minutes ago, Joseph Clemson said:

 

I'm thinking you may be right, Matt, that the CTR element of our overall placing in the rankings is determined on the basis of the total average all our pseudonymns. However, it may still be worth creating a new pseudonym as it will still be easier to improve the CTR of that pseudonym with carefully curated keywords etc. The images from this pseudonym will appear ahead of other images/pseudonyms from the same contributor, giving a way of promoting our best images over our mediocre ones in any given subject. ( I know you don't have any mediocre images, Matt, but lesser mortals like myself find life is full of them )

 

I just did a test.  Found a set of 4 images where for some reason i split between 2 pseudonyms, one having a CTR above .6, (Pseudo A) and one below ( Pseudo  B), with A twice as high as B.

 

Two have all search words in title, two have one of the three search words only in KW.  All rest of same.

 

My search generates 27 hits, 4 of them mine.  So all in first page

 

 

The two images with all words in Title show up first.  the one from Pseudo A, actually is top results

 

However for the other two images, Pseudo B shows up before of the two.

 

 

 So search match seems to be ahead of CTR, and CTR is inconclusive.  I have another set i am going to go tests, but it will have to wait to be indexed over the week-end

[Aaron]

6 hours ago, NYCat said:

If you want to see exactly what words people use to search go to your Dashboard.... Alamy Measures ... All of Alamy. You can even put a in search word to see the searches for that subject. One column will show you how many pages were looked at.

 

Paulette

 

I will look more into this, Thank for the tip!

 

10 hours ago, sb photos said:

 

That's what I do. Very rarely can I add 40+ relevant tags, sometimes I struggle to find 10. Padding out with irrelevant tags only harms your ranking.

 

9 hours ago, Joseph Clemson said:

Plus one for not using a keyword generator. The kewording machine inside your head is far superior. This is especially true of editorial images where precise and accurate detail iof each image is required. Processign a batch of imageswith identical keywords usually leads to some images not containing features which are recorded in the caption or keywords. This will hit your CTR.

 

Alamy doe not give precise details of how their search engine works, but we know from what has been said by them, and from contributors experimenting that captions are strongly weighted. Supertags are also very important. The other keywords play a significant part, but make sure the captions and supertags are as descriptive and detailed of the central subject of the image as is possible.

 

Many buyers are busy photo editors who only have time to look at one or two pages of images. A few searchers go through many thousands of images. For this reason your search ranking matters if you want to be among the first images buyers see. We don't know the exact details of how search ranking is forumlated, but we do know CTR forms a part of it.

 

Out of nearly 3500 images I have 89 which have the full complement of 50 keywords. Most have 30 or fewer. I don't even use all the supertags if there is nothing significant to add.

 

The location field in the Optional tab is not searchable, though potential buyers can see that  information when they zoom the image. Put location in caption and supertag when it is significant. Leave it out entirely when it is not. Put it in the additional info field if there is no room in the caption. You would be amazed how many people put the location of their image of a daffodil in the caption when it is of no relevance to the image , which then risks the image showing up as a false positive in a search for that particular location. Another downward hit on their CTR.

 

If you are submitting such a massive volume of images that a keyword generator is an essential part of your workflow, then I would encourage you to be more selective in what you process and submit- two or three images of any given subject is enough in most cases. Use the time saved in processing to spend more time keywording. One thing you might notice here is that not every image which sells is a great image, many are rather nondescript. What usually sells is the fact that the image has been carefully captioned and kwyworded, and is part of a carefuly curated portfolio built up over a long time.

 

If your CTR is well below 0.5, consider my suggestion of an earlier post and create a new pseudonym and put some new images in that, using a more conservative approach to keywords etc.

 

I find it rather sobering that more than one of the contributors I see reporting their sales on the forun each month have better sales on even fewer images in their portfolio than mine. Quantity is not the most important factor at Alamy.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, meanderingemu said:

 

I just did a test.  Found a set of 4 images where for some reason i split between 2 pseudonyms, one having a CTR above .6, (Pseudo A) and one below ( Pseudo  B), with A twice as high as B.

 

Two have all search words in title, two have one of the three search words only in KW.  All rest of same.

 

My search generates 27 hits, 4 of them mine.  So all in first page

 

 

The two images with all words in Title show up first.  the one from Pseudo A, actually is top results

 

However for the other two images, Pseudo B shows up before of the two.

 

 

 So search match seems to be ahead of CTR, and CTR is inconclusive.  I have another set i am going to go tests, but it will have to wait to be indexed over the week-end

 

I went back to those that made great sales last month. I found not many use the entire 50 tags usually 15-30. Since many of you see this as the more effective way to conduct the work on here, perhaps that discovery bar trying to make it solid green should be removed then if it is misdirecting new users. Not having that green states poor to good discovery. Is this all true? Does that bar actually state the actual discovery of the images? I also see that many of you have stated. That I shouldn't have where and when first but have what and who first then where in the captions. I have seen many images from others and that looks like how everyone is conducting themselves. 

[John Mitchell]

" Does that bar actually state the actual discovery of the images?"

 

No, it's misleading in the regard. An image that has long been buried in the depths can still have high "discoverability". Being able to see how many times individual images have been viewed would be a welcome and much more useful feature. Personally, I think that ranking is the most important driver of how "discoverable" an image is -- i.e. the higher an image is ranked, the higher up it will appear in customer searches.

Edited September 27, 2019 by John Mitchell

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

 

I just did a test.  Found a set of 4 images where for some reason i split between 2 pseudonyms, one having a CTR above .6, (Pseudo A) and one below ( Pseudo  B), with A twice as high as B.

 

Two have all search words in title, two have one of the three search words only in KW.  All rest of same.

 

My search generates 27 hits, 4 of them mine.  So all in first page

 

 

The two images with all words in Title show up first.  the one from Pseudo A, actually is top results

 

However for the other two images, Pseudo B shows up before of the two.

 

 

 So search match seems to be ahead of CTR, and CTR is inconclusive.  I have another set i am going to go tests, but it will have to wait to be indexed over the week-end

 

You need to be very careful with this sort of testing. I recommend using brand new images that have never been sold or zoomed. I have evidence that if an image has been previously zoomed using the same keyword search term as you are using in your test, it is very likely be promoted in search results. This can confuse the results considerably.

 

Mark

[Bill Brooks]

13 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

 

You need to be very careful with this sort of testing.

Mark

 

I agree with Mark.

 

This way leads to madness. Dragons be here.

[meanderingemu]

16 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

 

You need to be very careful with this sort of testing. I recommend using brand new images that have never been sold or zoomed. I have evidence that if an image has been previously zoomed using the same keyword search term as you are using in your test, it is very likely be promoted in search results. This can confuse the results considerably.

 

Mark

 

this was a fairly recent set, with obviously narrow scope (27 total in search), this is why i used it.