Dangers of photographer

[ACC]

On 25/06/2018 at 20:07, Sally said:

I can’t believe that this is worth it.

 

Me neither, I’d find something else to shoot but each to his own.

[MizBrown]

We've been having disturbances in Nicaragua.   I've chosen not to go for action shots (police have been using live ammo at some demonstrations), but to do things like people building barricades and people at barricades who have given me permission to take photos.   One reporter believes that a round that killed a child had been aimed at him, just that the child moved at the wrong moment.    I'm a 70 year old white woman and have a dog that everyone in town, including people on both sides, know.  I take a crop frame Sony a6000 camera out with an old but good manual focus lens if I'm not in my own neighborhood. 

 

Some people are taking remarkably dramatic action photos, but I decided to pass.  Last night, one side was tearing up the barricades 25 meters from my house, at 2 a.m.   I didn't get out of my back bedroom.

 

Want to get a couple of portrait shots of the masked guys, but probably will talk to them first without having the camera with me.  If folks say "no," I don't try to sneak photos anyway.  One man had his cell phone confiscated because he is a municipal worker (computer guy) and the opposition manning the barricades decided he was a spy. 

 

Some of it is that what's happening needs to be documented, even the less dramatic incidents.  And I'm a photographer.  I just try to be a cautious and non-threatening photographer.

 

[Chuck Nacke]

I am going to attempt to make a more appropriate contribution to this thread.

 

As a long time "photojournalist" in my opinion, you need to consider if the image

and if it is worth the risk to yourself, will contribute to society down the road,

if it takes more than  a fraction of a second to make that decision, you did not make

the image.....  I have covered many events and demonstrations that turned dangerous, one in Moscow

where my good friend died, he was a video journalist. Photo : http://chucknacke.zenfolio.com/p699356186/h6cac4922#h6cac4922

was taken ten minutes after he was killed.  FYI while this image is on Alamy it has not

made many licenses and in my opinion it is not a great image, but also in my opinion it

is an important image illustrating to end of the Soviet Union and the Yelstin years.

 

Again in my opinion, when photographing events or news it is important to think about

how a person or event will fit into history.  It is unfortunate that in 2018 it seems more

important to get the images uploaded and out on the web before perspective can be

added to the captions and selection of images.

 

In the 1990's I had promised to not cover any more demonstrations and now in the the

U.S. I can not sit by and not make images of what is happening in my area, New England.

I must add that I've been impressed with Alamy's licensing of the demonstrations photos

I've uploaded to Live News, BUT I am more concerned about how images I make for NEWS

fit into a long term narrative about the United States during Donald.

 

I've been a "Photojournalist" (PJ) for decades, not really working as a PJ now.  In my opinion

it is vitally important if you are working as a PJ to think about the image, the  caption and how

the image fits into "HISTORY".  It is not about sales, it is about the opportunity to show the world

something important, something that can change the direction of a government or people.

My friend Eddy Adams did that and I know how much that cost him.  He was not in Viet Nam

thinking about stock sales or how much he would make per images, but he made one of the

most important images of the pervious century, it amazes me how a 250th of a second

can make such an impact. 

 

In closing I will say that after ten years staying home to raise children I am back working

as a photographer, doing $2000+ per day corporate work and any time I am working on "stock"

images or photographing events for Alamy, it is because I love it.  I really wish I could make the

time to scan and caption the images that I did when I helped move a Salvadorian family to Seattle

in the 1980's.

 

FYI: on my third bottle of "2 Buck Chuck"  Ah the cost of the business....

[John Mitchell]

13 hours ago, MizBrown said:

We've been having disturbances in Nicaragua.   I've chosen not to go for action shots (police have been using live ammo at some demonstrations), but to do things like people building barricades and people at barricades who have given me permission to take

 

Ten cuidado. Things can turn very dark very quickly in Latin America, especially if the police or army suddenly show up. I've taken a few images at political demonstrations in LAM, but only at peaceful ones and from a respectful distance. I also never linger afterwards.

Edited July 6, 2018 by John Mitchell

[imageplotter]

On 7/6/2018 at 08:20, Chuck Nacke said:

I am going to attempt to make a more appropriate contribution to this thread.

 

As a long time "photojournalist" in my opinion, you need to consider if the image

and if it is worth the risk to yourself, will contribute to society down the road,

if it takes more than  a fraction of a second to make that decision, you did not make

the image.....  I have covered many events and demonstrations that turned dangerous, one in Moscow

where my good friend died, he was a video journalist. Photo : http://chucknacke.zenfolio.com/p699356186/h6cac4922#h6cac4922

was taken ten minutes after he was killed.  FYI while this image is on Alamy it has not

made many licenses and in my opinion it is not a great image, but also in my opinion it

is an important image illustrating to end of the Soviet Union and the Yelstin years.

 

Again in my opinion, when photographing events or news it is important to think about

how a person or event will fit into history.  It is unfortunate that in 2018 it seems more

important to get the images uploaded and out on the web before perspective can be

added to the captions and selection of images.

 

In the 1990's I had promised to not cover any more demonstrations and now in the the

U.S. I can not sit by and not make images of what is happening in my area, New England.

I must add that I've been impressed with Alamy's licensing of the demonstrations photos

I've uploaded to Live News, BUT I am more concerned about how images I make for NEWS

fit into a long term narrative about the United States during Donald.

 

I've been a "Photojournalist" (PJ) for decades, not really working as a PJ now.  In my opinion

it is vitally important if you are working as a PJ to think about the image, the  caption and how

the image fits into "HISTORY".  It is not about sales, it is about the opportunity to show the world

something important, something that can change the direction of a government or people.

My friend Eddy Adams did that and I know how much that cost him.  He was not in Viet Nam

thinking about stock sales or how much he would make per images, but he made one of the

most important images of the pervious century, it amazes me how a 250th of a second

can make such an impact. 

 

In closing I will say that after ten years staying home to raise children I am back working

as a photographer, doing $2000+ per day corporate work and any time I am working on "stock"

images or photographing events for Alamy, it is because I love it.  I really wish I could make the

time to scan and caption the images that I did when I helped move a Salvadorian family to Seattle

in the 1980's.

 

FYI: on my third bottle of "2 Buck Chuck"  Ah the cost of the business....

Thanks for that comment, Chuck! And a lot of powerful images on your site, fantastic work to look through.  I wish more of the togs out there would still take the 'it's not about sales, it's about how the image fits into history' approach, although to be fair, the sales focus is now often one forced by the sheer need to survice in an era where print journalism and image pay peanuts. I very much admire those who still shoot and, more importantly, select to publish their images of choice, rather than just their images of lowest common commercial denominator. Those are the PJs I grew up admiring, and they seem far and few between now. 

[John Mitchell]

8 hours ago, imageplotter said:

Thanks for that comment, Chuck! And a lot of powerful images on your site, fantastic work to look through.  I wish more of the togs out there would still take the 'it's not about sales, it's about how the image fits into history' approach, although to be fair, the sales focus is now often one forced by the sheer need to survice in an era where print journalism and image pay peanuts. I very much admire those who still shoot and, more importantly, select to publish their images of choice, rather than just their images of lowest common commercial denominator. Those are the PJs I grew up admiring, and they seem far and few between now. 

 

I agree, Chuck has some important images. There will be lessons to be learned from this chaotic period in American history, and an image can still be worth a lot of words (especially these days).

[Chuck Nacke]

My thanks to both of the above for your kind words.

 

Chuck

 

[IanDavidson]

I too agree with Chuck.  However, at least in the UK, there is an issue with reportage.  Most of my local papers no longer employ photographers and many local events do not get coverage.  As an example, I recently covered a local ceremony – a flag raising for Armed Forces Day.  One of those speaking was a ninety year old veteran who, I was informed, was attending his last “parade”.  I doubt if the image will sell, but to me it was important to record that event.  Likewise I cover the local holocaust memorial event when we have someone who survived the holocaust as a speaker – but these people are sadly dying out (the speakers at the two previous events have sadly both died and at least in once case my photographs were used in the obituary) so I hope my photographs make some very small contribution to the story.

 

Some people have, understandably, criticised the fact that I have put myself at risk covering the disorder following the world cup games.  But I believe it is important (particularly if England win!!!!)  In the last couple of events there has been one other, different photographer.  In both cases they gave up after ten minutes due to crowd hostility.  If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound…..?

 

I have been re-reading, for about the tenth time Harold Evans (former Editor of the Times etc) book on photojournalism, Pictures on a Page, and although even the second edition is old (1997), (and difficult to find a copy) he has some trenchant comments on the nature of photojournalism truth and history.  With particular reference to Chuck’s comments; on the recording of history from the great and the good to events at the local school.  Although my journalism training was brief and too many years ago to relate, I do understand the context of journalism and in particular photojournalism (and Evans makes excellent points on this issue)   

 

I wish I was a better photojournalist, but have some consolation in that I enjoy the learning process and constant striving to improve, even after a few years, and the fact that I am recording events that otherwise would go unrecorded.

[MizBrown]

On 7/6/2018 at 13:02, John Mitchell said:

 

Ten cuidado. Things can turn very dark very quickly in Latin America, especially if the police or army suddenly show up. I've taken a few images at political demonstrations in LAM, but only at peaceful ones and from a respectful distance. I also never linger afterwards.

 

I live here and walk by what I've photographed almost every day.  My neighbors decided to not defend the local barricade, which means that it gets kicked over or dismantled from time to time, but no shots are fired when the turbas decide to go out at night and attack barricades.   Whole thing is surreal -- the turbas (Ortega's ad hoc forces) spend the day on certain blocks in town and then go out at night.   The army has told Ortega that it's going to protect buildings and facilities but will not attack demonstrators.  The cops are basically outnumbered without bringing in the turbas. 

 

I didn't go out at first, but when my neighbors were building barricades, I did.  It's not as showy or as bloody as what's going on in Managua and Masaya, but it's part of the political situation here. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by MizBrown
A few additional comments.

[MizBrown]

On 7/6/2018 at 13:02, John Mitchell said:

 

Ten cuidado. Things can turn very dark very quickly in Latin America, especially if the police or army suddenly show up. I've taken a few images at political demonstrations in LAM, but only at peaceful ones and from a respectful distance. I also never linger afterwards.

 

I live here and walk by what I've photographed almost every day.  My neighbors decided to not defend the local barricade, which means that it gets kicked over or dismantled, but no shots are fired when the turbas decide to go out at night and attack barricades.   Whole thing is surreal -- the turbas (Ortega's ad hoc forces) spend the day on certain blocks in town and then go out at night.   The army has told Ortega that it's going to protect buildings and facilities but will not attack demonstrators.  The cops are basically outnumbered without bringing in the turbas. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by MizBrown
Dublicate

[sb photos]

An interesting thread. So far I have only shot Live News for Alamy. Whenever an event could turn violent  you have to way up if it is viable to continue shooting. If you went prepared and already knew what to expect shoot away but don't leave it too late deciding when to withdraw. This hasn't happened to me since the 70/80's when photographing clashes between the ANL and NF here in the UK. More recently when I've clipped a helmet to my bag expecting the worse, all was peaceful. We shall see what happens in London next Saturday, although this time the police are are likely to be prepared.

 

MizBrown, it's great being able to document the upheavals going on, but I would be concerned that as this appears to be very local to you your address would be known. A quick look at your uploads don't show any conflict, so perhaps not so much of a concern.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by sb photos

[MizBrown]

I live in a town where everyone gossips about the foreigners and people I don't know complement me on my weight loss.  I don't go out when there's shouting and mortar fire, much less gunfire.   Being stuck in a couple of blocks I know well and not going out with the cameras has been tedious.   I've got photos of all my orchids at this point, several of my cat and dog.   I explained to my neighbors what I was using the photos for, didn't explain to the FSLN folks, but I suspect that anyone who wants to know can ask the Post Office employees who've watched my photo gear come in from the US and the government bank where I have Alamy deposit any earnings. 

 

I know people who are pro-Ortega as well as those against.   First set of photos, my adrenaline was very high.  Set of the Ortega supporters was actually pretty calm.  

 

Other parts of Nicaragua are having far nastier times of it.

[John Mitchell]

3 hours ago, MizBrown said:

I live in a town where everyone gossips about the foreigners and people I don't know complement me on my weight loss.  I don't go out when there's shouting and mortar fire, much less gunfire.   Being stuck in a couple of blocks I know well and not going out with the cameras has been tedious.   I've got photos of all my orchids at this point, several of my cat and dog.   I explained to my neighbors what I was using the photos for, didn't explain to the FSLN folks, but I suspect that anyone who wants to know can ask the Post Office employees who've watched my photo gear come in from the US and the government bank where I have Alamy deposit any earnings. 

 

I know people who are pro-Ortega as well as those against.   First set of photos, my adrenaline was very high.  Set of the Ortega supporters was actually pretty calm.  

 

Other parts of Nicaragua are having far nastier times of it.

 

Lucky you're not in the thick of it.

 

Daniel Ortega sure has been around for a long time. I snapped this in a poor district of Managua in 1998. It didn't look like Daniel had done much for this unfortunate guy who had drowned his troubles in drink.

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by John Mitchell

[Colblimp]

On 7/7/2018 at 23:10, IanDavidson said:

I too agree with Chuck.  However, at least in the UK, there is an issue with reportage.  Most of my local papers no longer employ photographers and many local events do not get coverage.  As an example, I recently covered a local ceremony – a flag raising for Armed Forces Day.  One of those speaking was a ninety year old veteran who, I was informed, was attending his last “parade”.  I doubt if the image will sell, but to me it was important to record that event.  Likewise I cover the local holocaust memorial event when we have someone who survived the holocaust as a speaker – but these people are sadly dying out (the speakers at the two previous events have sadly both died and at least in once case my photographs were used in the obituary) so I hope my photographs make some very small contribution to the story.

 

Some people have, understandably, criticised the fact that I have put myself at risk covering the disorder following the world cup games.  But I believe it is important (particularly if England win!!!!)  In the last couple of events there has been one other, different photographer.  In both cases they gave up after ten minutes due to crowd hostility.  If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound…..?

 

I have been re-reading, for about the tenth time Harold Evans (former Editor of the Times etc) book on photojournalism, Pictures on a Page, and although even the second edition is old (1997), (and difficult to find a copy) he has some trenchant comments on the nature of photojournalism truth and history.  With particular reference to Chuck’s comments; on the recording of history from the great and the good to events at the local school.  Although my journalism training was brief and too many years ago to relate, I do understand the context of journalism and in particular photojournalism (and Evans makes excellent points on this issue)   

 

I wish I was a better photojournalist, but have some consolation in that I enjoy the learning process and constant striving to improve, even after a few years, and the fact that I am recording events that otherwise would go unrecorded.

 

Your pics are very good, Ian, you tell the story very well with your images. I'm looking forward to seeing more and remember, should England do the unthinkable (hope so), you've recorded history!

[imageplotter]

On 08/07/2018 at 08:33, sb photos said:

 We shall see what happens in London next Saturday, although this time the police are are likely to be prepared.

 

I'd have to agree on that re. Saturday - I'll probably go and will take a decision there and then, on the last one I binned most of my shots, because I felt myself so much resenting what was happening that my 'documenting' became very one sided. Plus images going to the wrong outlets might be used to support the cause I so much resented. Being freelance means you can walk away/not file if it just doesn't feel right as per personal choice (I wasn't worried about safety). The big agency staffers will have those rushed shots out much faster anyway, I'm aware of my total insignificance in the bigger picture of news gathering.  

[MizBrown]

On 7/8/2018 at 17:13, John Mitchell said:

 

Lucky you're not in the thick of it.

 

Daniel Ortega sure has been around for a long time. I snapped this in a poor district of Managua in 1998. It didn't look like Daniel had done much for this unfortunate guy who had drowned his troubles in drink.

 

 

It's an interesting problem.  Ortega and his supporters see this as an attempted coup by newspaper and media.  Roughly 30 percent of the population still supports him; 60% don't, but that group is very divided between very conservative to far left.  10% figures the quicker the fuss is over, the quicker things will get back to growing the economy at the recent quite high rate.  Things have gotten markedly better economically since I moved here in 2010.  How much of that was due to the FSLN's mixed economy and patronage of public works and how much just having a longer than usual period of relative peace here, I dunno.  The original issue was a change in the local social security system, but the conservatives have never been supporters of the public programs.   Poverty reduction has been real -- and before this mess, Nicaragua was third poorest country in the western hemisphere after Haiti and Honduras.

 

Some cities have had it much worse.   In Jinotega, we're back to regular garbage pickups after something like four dead in defending barricades to keep the pro FSLN irregulars out of neighborhoods.  

[John Mitchell]

4 hours ago, MizBrown said:

 

It's an interesting problem.  Ortega and his supporters see this as an attempted coup by newspaper and media.  Roughly 30 percent of the population still supports him; 60% don't, but that group is very divided between very conservative to far left.  10% figures the quicker the fuss is over, the quicker things will get back to growing the economy at the recent quite high rate.  Things have gotten markedly better economically since I moved here in 2010.  How much of that was due to the FSLN's mixed economy and patronage of public works and how much just having a longer than usual period of relative peace here, I dunno.  The original issue was a change in the local social security system, but the conservatives have never been supporters of the public programs.   Poverty reduction has been real -- and before this mess, Nicaragua was third poorest country in the western hemisphere after Haiti and Honduras.

 

Some cities have had it much worse.   In Jinotega, we're back to regular garbage pickups after something like four dead in defending barricades to keep the pro FSLN irregulars out of neighborhoods.  

 

I like Nicaragua, and have never felt threatened there. The chaotic politics is beyond me. However, Nicas always manage to keep a sense of humour about the whole thing. Stay safe.

[Penelope B]

Resurrecting this topic, and taking it slightly off topic, but still relevant.  In the new year my intentions are to move out further from London and cover some events in Brussels and Paris. Of course it seems that there is an increased risk of personal injury here, so, what are the recommendations for a helmet? would a cycling helmet be fine, or something more specialized?

These look reasonable ? 

https://www.military1st.co.uk/16662202-mil-tec-us-combat-m-i-c-h-2001-railed-helmet-black.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdNRq3IwsW3vsiKoBGUvLqO1p4F75A0B28PhA03eztnwYPpGEdcWeBcaAuXOEALw_wcB

Edited December 28, 2019 by Penelope B

[Avpics]

17 minutes ago, Penelope B said:

..... would a cycling helmet be fine....

Not an answer, but that reminds me of that time that the DFLA kicked-off in London. I hadn't noticed at the time, but demonstrating how thin the thin blue line had become was the inclusion of parks police cyclists in the cordons. That was a little fruity!

 

 

[MizBrown]

2 hours ago, Penelope B said:

Resurrecting this topic, and taking it slightly off topic, but still relevant.  In the new year my intentions are to move out further from London and cover some events in Brussels and Paris. Of course it seems that there is an increased risk of personal injury here, so, what are the recommendations for a helmet? would a cycling helmet be fine, or something more specialized?

These look reasonable ? 

https://www.military1st.co.uk/16662202-mil-tec-us-combat-m-i-c-h-2001-railed-helmet-black.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdNRq3IwsW3vsiKoBGUvLqO1p4F75A0B28PhA03eztnwYPpGEdcWeBcaAuXOEALw_wcB

A. Make sure you can understand the language, especially words for things like, "oh, shit," "gun fire," "tear gas," "danger," and "take care."   If you don't have that level of understanding of French, then hire an interpreter/minder.  Take a camera you can afford to lose.

 

B.  You want to know what the police have been doing.   In NYC where the police assigned to marches and rallies had excellent training in mob control, people who threw rocks at buildings got a very targeted whack on their throwing arm elbows, no cracked heads.  When some demonstrators jumped subway turnstiles and started chasing transit police at a transit police change of shift, they ended up with bloody heads because they had scared the police who weren't trained in riot control.   I was one of the demonstrators with a bruised elbow.

 

C.  If you look like a cop or the military or a US or British equivalent, you may have problems from the demonstrators.   If you can be grabbed, you can lose your helmet and get your head kicked in, by either cops or demonstrators, depending on who's most pissed off or who thinks you're a spy.  In any of these events, here or in the US and Europe, all sides infiltrate each other pretty impressively.  You don't want to be mistaken for one of those.

 

In my case in 2018, I'd been living here for a while, knew the neighbors, met some of the FSLN, probably had a cane toad thrown into my courtyard for hiring as a part-time cleaner a woman who worked as a clerk for the local Policia National office.   I know the Spanish for all those words listed above, and I didn't wear a helmet  and I didn't wade into the street fighting.   I photographed demonstrations from my house window.

From what I've read, combat photographers who are covering live fire events have helmet marked press and Kevlar vests with ceramic heart plates.   If you have a Press vest on (watch BBC World for examples of what press people wear in different situations), make sure you have appropriate press credentials.

 

[sb photos]

Pen, I had a quick look at the helmets, there's no spec for them, hard to tell what protection they would offer, wether they would protect you against a lobbed water bottle, rubble or a CRS baton. A while back I chose a Bern Watts helmet, the hard hat version. I gather these are used by skateboarders and by off road cyclists. It feels quite substantial, but I've never had anything smash into it to test it. Hope all goes well.

[meanderingemu]

6 hours ago, MizBrown said:

A. Make sure you can understand the language, especially words for things like, "oh, shit," "gun fire," "tear gas," "danger," and "take care."   If you don't have that level of understanding of French, then hire an interpreter/minder.  Take a camera you can afford to lose.

 

 

 

"merde", "coup de feu", "gaz lacrymogène", "danger" et "attention"

[Penelope B]

12 hours ago, sb photos said:

Pen, I had a quick look at the helmets, there's no spec for them, hard to tell what protection they would offer, wether they would protect you against a lobbed water bottle, rubble or a CRS baton. A while back I chose a Bern Watts helmet, the hard hat version. I gather these are used by skateboarders and by off road cyclists. It feels quite substantial, but I've never had anything smash into it to test it. Hope all goes well.

Thanks Steve, I have been looking at on line cycle shops. Just want something that can deflect, rather than take a full on blow from a batten. Those Bern Watts style look good for what I am looking for. 

Also big thanks for the language tip. 

[Ed Rooney]

If you're looking for a calm life and a safe world, maybe photojournalism is not the best path to choose. 

[sb photos]

17 minutes ago, Ed Rooney said:

If you're looking for a calm life and a safe world, maybe photojournalism is not the best path to choose. 

 

Ed, Pen is an experienced photojournalist who I very much doubt isn’t looking for a calm life. She was simply asking for advice for additional protection, which is logical if covering some French protests.