Re-Keywording....is it worth the effort. Will it pay off?

[geoff s]

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

[NYCat]

A search for "hooded crane" still shows many, many incorrect images in spite of the fact that the photographer has been told more than once that he is using that term for birds that are not that bird. Perhaps he could at least remove "hooded" and just leave "crane" if he's not willing to take our word about what kind of crane the birds are...  Gnashing of teeth. I do worry what sort of impression this gives to buyers. Perhaps I should leave him alone so I don't have to compete with his images??? Apparently I am bothered by this. Taking a deeeeeep breath.

 

Paulette

[Joseph Clemson]

 

"How stupid must Alamy look if a customer is searching for "geology" "erosion" "ecosysstem" and the OP's picture of a pile of colourful sombrerospops up How many more examples do you want?

B.t.w. while browsing through the search results the picture below showed already halfway (page 26 of 46)"

 

But maybe Alamy don't mind looking stupid as they have done little or nothing to address this problem or that of RF with people and no release. Or maybe they don't feel it really matters in the greater scheme or that indeed the systems they have in place are adequate.

 

Now if droves of customers were complaining then----

 

With more than 10,000 files if i had pics with lots of keywords (which i don't) then I would not think it worthwhile to rekeyword unless there was a very easy way of doing it- it simply aint worth it-just let then settle at the bottom of the pile until Alamy show some interest in doing something.

 

Regen

Joseph Clemson: "What astonishes me, as much as the dubious keywording which needs a massive amount of work to bring it up to scratch, is the fact that numerous images containing both people and private property are set as RF, contrary to Alamy's rules. This is compounded by the vast number of images where one is set as RM and a near identical image as RF."

 

Well, if nothing is done about it, why don't I just offer my whole RM collection once more on a harddrive .......... but as RF this time. Hardly any trouble, really. Could easily double my income, betting on two horses, wouldn't it? Hey, if it's allowed for some, it should for everyone. No?

 

Cheers,

Philippe (don't worry, Alamy. I won't Maybe I'm a little rough around the edges, but at least I'm honest and do the trouble reading your submission requirements )

 

 

Interestingly, many of the RF images in the OP's portfolio seem to have magically become RM. I see very few RF images in there now and some which I am pretty sure were RF yesterday are now showing as RM. 

[Reimar]

Thanks to all who invested valuable time to offer serious suggestions.  They are truly appreciated.

 

Because of what has been noted here and other boards and because of further serious research on other successful Alamy shooters I have come to the conclusion that minimal keywording more than any other single factor is the most important tool for our success.

 

I am reminded that Getty only allows 5 keywords in total when I submit to them.  I checked and I sell between 75- 100 images there on average each month on a collection of less than 3,500 images.  This helped served as a wake up call for me as Getty boasts of more than 90 million images.  I know Alamy is no Getty but the process of selling is much the same.  Someone has to search via keywords and who know what my ranking might be at Getty or why my images get in front of a buyer.

 

In my research at Alamy I am finding that a couple of successful shooters are using several pseudonyms and all appear on page one of my search.  Their keywording isn't anything spectacular but it is minimal to a great extent.  I am not sure what to make of this.  Others only use one name ......period.  I am scratching my head as to the course to take forward.

 

I do know that I will wait until the next Manage Images is due out "hopefully by the end of summer (according to MS)".  Until then I could start the deletion process and use a temporary pseudo to hold them until I figure out what to do.

 

**Wim** yes, the early days of keyword spamming was rewarded to the extent that it put me into the top 10 individual money makers at Alamy.  Recently though I am finding the fall every bit as fast as the rise.  I suspect it is totally do to inadequate keywording and a search system that punishes poor keywording.  It will take an enormous amount of time and effort to edit and re-keyword the entire collection.  In order to do it right it will take 6-12 months to do the necessary work.  It's work that both my wife and I see and absolutely necessary.  We will only shoot minimally new material for stock.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

dennis 

You're welcome Dennis.

I would not wait for a shiny new manage images.  Your work will be labour intensive anyway.  I still suggest some new pseudos.  One for problematic images to be deleted or changed.  Definitely one for properly keyworded/ re-keyworded images.  As others have said, and my example above shows, not only are wrong keywords included, but some basic ones are missing (shop, store, market....)  A new pseudo will start mid field in rank and you will be able to determine if it can stay there or rise as you add select/re-keyworded images.  Even if re-doing your whole collection would not be worth it, starting a select group pseudo would be (in my opinion).

[John Mitchell]

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

[Allan Bell]

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

 

Or even Donald Trump.

 

Allan

[Ed Rooney]

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

 

Are you refering to his VP pick, John? 

[John Mitchell]

 

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

 

Are you refering to his VP pick, John? 

 

 

No, but no doubt Mr. T.'s lawyers will tell the "lucky" gentlemen that he will have to sign a model release (perhaps even a "pre-nup") if he wants to run as VP.

 

Sorry, I'm veering way off topic. Back to reality...

[losdemas]

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

Seems very simple to me (but then I am very simple): any property, no matter how humble, belongs to someone and therefore merits a property release for commercial usage .  The only difference being that DT (or the NT) are far more likely to pursue you after the event.

[John Mitchell]

 

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

Seems very simple to me (but then I am very simple): any property, no matter how humble, belongs to someone and therefore merits a property release for commercial usage . 

 

Old conversation, I know, but wouldn't that include just about everything man-made?

[losdemas]

 

 

 

 re RF / RM and releases......

I hold my hand up and say that I'm still a little confused about the word 'property' in relation to releases.

I understand the concept of intellectual property and trade marks etc but I'm not sure how far the concept travels in the other direction ie into physical property.

So for example, using buildings as an example and using a scale from a world famous, landmark building (let's say the CST railway station in Mumbai) at one end  to a few ordinary houses in a landscape at the other, what are the release 

requirements here ? 

Is there some resource that gives a whole load of real world examples ? 

Thanks, and apologies if this is a dim witted question

 

Not a dimwitted question at all IMO. I've raised my hand many times and still don't totally understand the notion of "property that needs a release." 

 

For instance, is the humble house on a hill any less "property" and deserving of a release than one of Donald Trump's towering monstrosities?

 

 

Seems very simple to me (but then I am very simple): any property, no matter how humble, belongs to someone and therefore merits a property release for commercial usage . 

 

Old conversation, I know, but wouldn't that include just about everything man-made?

 

 

Yup! Just about everything has an 'owner' in this world.

[focal point]

You're welcome Dennis.

I would not wait for a shiny new manage images.  Your work will be labour intensive anyway.  I still suggest some new pseudos.  One for problematic images to be deleted or changed.  Definitely one for properly keyworded/ re-keyworded images.  As others have said, and my example above shows, not only are wrong keywords included, but some basic ones are missing (shop, store, market....)  A new pseudo will start mid field in rank and you will be able to determine if it can stay there or rise as you add select/re-keyworded images.  Even if re-doing your whole collection would not be worth it, starting a select group pseudo would be (in my opinion).

 

 

Reimar,

 

This might make the most sense at this point.  I could set up a sort of trash bin sort of pseudo and start culling into that.  Establishing another pseudo for finely tuned re-keyworded images might do the trick.  It would seem a good place to start.

 

Would you suggest that starting with my best selling images be the first to go into the new pseudo?  Would their rank establishing power go with them?  I am not certain which to place in their first.  While I may not be at the top of the rankings now I am not as far down the list as some would like to believe.  I still see at least three of the top sellers with a sizable collection using only one pseudo.  A couple of them told me they can't be bothered with messing with the pseudo concept and don't need to waste the extra brain matter in trying to figure it all out.  I am seriously considering in keeping pseudos to an absolute minimum.  If I am to do a major overhaul I may as well do it all at one time.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[ReeRay]

As I understand it, a new pseudo will be initially placed mid-table for ranking. The sales history of images placed here does not go with them. As such, it would be better to keep your better images in your current pseudo and transfer others out.

[Pearl]

As I understand it, a new pseudo will be initially placed mid-table for ranking. The sales history of images placed here does not go with them. As such, it would be better to keep your better images in your current pseudo and transfer others out.

Sales history DOES go with the images but it won't show until the next rerank. In other words a new pseudo containing only best selling images will initially have a middle rank but should improve significantly after a rerank. Timing will be important.

 

Pearl

[ReeRay]

Interesting. Thanks for the correction Pearl.

[geoff s]

I think I'll start a new topic about this 'property' question as it seems there are different opinions.

[Reimar]

 

You're welcome Dennis.

I would not wait for a shiny new manage images.  Your work will be labour intensive anyway.  I still suggest some new pseudos.  One for problematic images to be deleted or changed.  Definitely one for properly keyworded/ re-keyworded images.  As others have said, and my example above shows, not only are wrong keywords included, but some basic ones are missing (shop, store, market....)  A new pseudo will start mid field in rank and you will be able to determine if it can stay there or rise as you add select/re-keyworded images.  Even if re-doing your whole collection would not be worth it, starting a select group pseudo would be (in my opinion).

 

 

Reimar,

 

This might make the most sense at this point.  I could set up a sort of trash bin sort of pseudo and start culling into that.  Establishing another pseudo for finely tuned re-keyworded images might do the trick.  It would seem a good place to start.

 

Would you suggest that starting with my best selling images be the first to go into the new pseudo?  Would their rank establishing power go with them?  I am not certain which to place in their first.  While I may not be at the top of the rankings now I am not as far down the list as some would like to believe.  I still see at least three of the top sellers with a sizable collection using only one pseudo.  A couple of them told me they can't be bothered with messing with the pseudo concept and don't need to waste the extra brain matter in trying to figure it all out.  I am seriously considering in keeping pseudos to an absolute minimum.  If I am to do a major overhaul I may as well do it all at one time.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Definitely.  Make sure you review the keywording for these best selling images and add it to your "A" images pseudo.  Add more as time permits.  Watch your rank and views for this pseudo surpass the rest.  My top ranked pseudo has four times the views of my other mid-field pseudo, and more than 10 times the views of my low ranked pseudo.

I would suggest marking one RM image in each pseudo with "BHZ" only in the "essential" field to monitor your ranking progress over time, but hey - that's just me.

[John Mitchell]

 

I cut my down to a small number of "product groups" i.e. based on subject matter. Sport in one pseudo, illustrations in another etc.

 

It seems to be working.

 

 

How so? If you don't mind my asking. I'm thinking of doing something similar.

[John Mitchell]

 

 

 

I cut my down to a small number of "product groups" i.e. based on subject matter. Sport in one pseudo, illustrations in another etc.

 

It seems to be working.

 

 

How so? If you don't mind my asking. I'm thinking of doing something similar.

 

 

 

How is it working, do you mean? 

 

One is on time saved. I dont know how often you look at your measures but if you just give it a quick once over, that quick once over takes longer the more pseudo's you have. Further managing images is easier if you can just batch process the pseudo in one go. I am not faffing around thinking this should go here, or that should go there, but doing more productive faffing. When I cut down the number of pseudos I made a whole load of other changes, for example pre-keywording all my images in Lightroom, but the net result is that I am spending a lot less time to achieve my Alamy income than I was previously.

 

However, I have a fairly eclectic collection and the market for x is not the same market as y. For example my sales of professional sport are relatively infrequent so keeping that in the same pseudo as my travel images or  digital illustrations could have a detrimental effect. I am however tempted to go back the one single pseudo in the interests of efficiency.

 

There is another element in choosing pseudo names. Alamy's SEO is better than mine, when people search my name on a search engine, I'd rather they find my images on my site. Them finding them on Alamy is better than not at all, but the optimalisaton is now so optimal that I am finding that other peoples images on Alamy are now trumping mine in Google returns when using my name as search term.

 

 

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I only have two pseudos -- one for travel-related images (which comprise most of my sales) and another one for everything else. This arrangement has worked fairly well so far, but I'm thinking that I will need to make some organizational changes soon.  

[Charles Stirling]

If a lot of photos were put up some time ago Alamy didn't have the questions of number of people, etc. They were then not as concerned about this just as they advised putting in as may keywords as possible. Yes, times have changed. I know I have early ones that need attention, just need to get around to it.