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The Neon Mystery


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I used to shoot with Nikon DSLR's. A few years ago I switched to Sony. I now use Sony NEX, an RX10, and a RX100 Mk3. 

 

Being older now, and long retired from assignment work, I'm happy with this change to smaller, lighter gear. I'm also happy with the results I get for stock. Mostly that is. But Sony does a poor job capturing neon signs, not anywhere as good as my Nikons did. The neon with my Sonys is always weak and washed out. With the Nikons it was good, exposures and colors. 

 

I shoot RAW and I do my PP in LR, CS5, with sometimes a stop in NX2. And I know to sometimes bracket when shooting. Since I'm pretty sure that Sony made most of the sensors in my Nikons. what's going on here?

 

What is causing my neon problems? 

 

Thanks, Edo

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It's probably the profile of your RAW converter. Usually there's a whole list one can choose from.

I'm wrestling with an RX10 m2 this weekend. No neon though.

No RAW in CS6 either; not even DNG when on Vista.

 

wim

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For small signs, like those in cafe windows, I think one reason for the effect is that the lights are now no longer Neon, they are now Light Emitting Diodes aka LEDs;.

 

Neon signs are gas discharge tubes.  Glass tubes bent to the required shape and filled with an inert gas.  Electrical connections at each end cause the gas to glow continuously along the length.  Pure neon gives an orange discharge, but mixing other gasses can give other colours.

 

The LED lights are not continuous, but are a line of small individual lights.

 

I think that while the two types look similar to the eye, the LEDs with gaps in between give a reduced saturation compared with the old neon tubes.

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Hmmm... interesting, I don't remember ever having neon problems with any of my Sony cameras. This one was shot with the NEX-3. I find that AWB does a surprisingly good job with neon.

 

Believe it or not, Vancouver was once considered the "neon capital of north america," but not any longer. Sadly, most of the signs are now gone.

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Thank you for your information, gentlemen.

 

I am aware that there are LED signs and neon signs and possibly other lighting options as well. However, my complaint was that my Sonys are not doing as well capturing these various types of signs as my Nikons did. Am I sure of that? Maybe not. 

 

Here I am in NYC surrounded by bright, colorful signs . . . I can't avoid them . . . and I have sold some of these images . . . but they are too often unpredictable to capture, the colors and the exposures both. 

 

 

massage-therapy-neon-sign-in-chinatown-i neon-sign-for-brooklyn-beer-in-a-window-

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Thank you for your information, gentlemen.

 

I am aware that there are LED signs and neon signs and possibly other lighting options as well. However, my complaint was that my Sonys are not doing as well capturing these various types of signs as my Nikons did. Am I sure of that? Maybe not. 

 

Here I am in NYC surrounded by bright, colorful signs . . . I can't avoid them . . . and I have sold some of these images . . . but they are too often unpredictable to capture, the colors and the exposures both. 

 

 

massage-therapy-neon-sign-in-chinatown-i neon-sign-for-brooklyn-beer-in-a-window-

 

These two look good to me, Ed, but I'm no neon expert.

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did you change something else since you went from Nikon to Sony? 

For example your display or computer - maybe it is not the Sony but something else. 

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Could this be a result of too short shutter speeds.

I have had trouble with LED destination signs on trams & trains.

I have found that anything shorter than a 250th results in only part of the display showing!

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I am with Edo on this one. Have shot a few neon signs with my Sony RX100 mkI, the only one I have. Certainly have washed out appearance. Believe I corrected them in LR or PSE but do not remember how.

 

Use my Nikon D750 most of the time now, despite weight, and I am around Edo's age too.

 

Looking forward to the Nikon DL's coming onto the shelves soon to have a play with and if successful re IQ for Alamy will be getting one or two. Iknow they probably have the Sony sensor BUT Nikon may have tamed it with their firmware.

 

Will hang on to my D750 though.

 

Allan

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John, your right -- the two images I posted above are fine, examples of successful neon shooting -- in fact they've both sold. The "rub pic" was shot with a Sony, the "Brooklyn beer" with a Nikon.

 

I don't have any negative examples because I don't submit them . . . and it would be pointless to show any here in the forum, since you guys would have to be able the see the live subjects as well as my capture to form an opinion. "Curiouser and curiouser." 

 

Wim's suggestion about the RAW converter and David's observation of shutter speeds are worth looking into. But I don't think either is my problem. Could certain colors be a factor? And what about the comparative brightness of the sign? "It is a puzzlement."  :unsure:

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I would guess, as Wim says, that is simply down to the camera profile but it seems that the number of camera profiles available in LR or ACR for Sony cameras is limited (not based on experience - just hearsay and could be wrong but seems to be what Wim is saying as well). Profiles are great as they give a basis from which to work from but they are not essential as there are workarounds.

 

So how do the same images look if you were to shoot JPEG - not something I would generally suggest being an absolute raw advocate but it might be worth a shot or two. Alternatively use the vibrance and HSL controls in LR to boost saturation and balance colours the way you like and then save as a preset or make it a LR default for that camera.

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I would guess, as Wim says, that is simply down to the camera profile but it seems that the number of camera profiles available in LR or ACR for Sony cameras is limited (not based on experience - just hearsay and could be wrong but seems to be what Wim is saying as well). Profiles are great as they give a basis from which to work from but they are not essential as there are workarounds.

 

So how do the same images look if you were to shoot JPEG - not something I would generally suggest being an absolute raw advocate but it might be worth a shot or two. Alternatively use the vibrance and HSL controls in LR to boost saturation and balance colours the way you like and then save as a preset or make it a LR default for that camera.

 

 

I've tried going with jpegs twice, and it didn't work out. It didn't save me any PP time at all, because most of my Post time is spent cleaning up the streets of NYC. I'd rather do that on a tiff in CS5.

 

Wim is a much more savvy tech person than I am, and I don't always have the basic knowledge to follow his advice. The fact -- the detail -- that's interesting here is that my neon images of colored lights captured on my Sonys is only sometimes a problem. Sometimes everything works just fine. 

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Use my Nikon D750 most of the time now, despite weight, and I am around Edo's age too.

 

Looking forward to the Nikon DL's coming onto the shelves soon to have a play with and if successful re IQ for Alamy will be getting one or two. Iknow they probably have the Sony sensor BUT Nikon may have tamed it with their firmware.

 

Allan

Latest I've seen says these will now be available at the end of the year. My interest in one of these is waning and I'm looking at the new panasonic GX85, which seems to have overcome the shutter shock issue with it's newly designed shutter. Twin lens kit with 12-32 and 35-100 lenses is currently quoted as £729, which will innevitably drop.

David

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I would guess, as Wim says, that is simply down to the camera profile but it seems that the number of camera profiles available in LR or ACR for Sony cameras is limited (not based on experience - just hearsay and could be wrong but seems to be what Wim is saying as well). Profiles are great as they give a basis from which to work from but they are not essential as there are workarounds.

 

So how do the same images look if you were to shoot JPEG - not something I would generally suggest being an absolute raw advocate but it might be worth a shot or two. Alternatively use the vibrance and HSL controls in LR to boost saturation and balance colours the way you like and then save as a preset or make it a LR default for that camera.

 

 

I've tried going with jpegs twice, and it didn't work out. It didn't save me any PP time at all, because most of my Post time is spent cleaning up the streets of NYC. I'd rather do that on a tiff in CS5.

 

Wim is a much more savvy tech person than I am, and I don't always have the basic knowledge to follow his advice. The fact -- the detail -- that's interesting here is that my neon images of colored lights captured on my Sonys is only sometimes a problem. Sometimes everything works just fine. 

 

I don't really have any neon- I've just scanned some old Vegas chromes and they were fine, of course- but I've just tried changing the LR profile in Camera Calibration from Adobe Standard to Vivid and it's like turning the colour up to 11. It's available for each colour. You could try that on the troublesome pix.

Vivid Red makes pale lager look like the amberest ale you'd want to drink.

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Use my Nikon D750 most of the time now, despite weight, and I am around Edo's age too.

 

Looking forward to the Nikon DL's coming onto the shelves soon to have a play with and if successful re IQ for Alamy will be getting one or two. Iknow they probably have the Sony sensor BUT Nikon may have tamed it with their firmware.

 

Allan

Latest I've seen says these will now be available at the end of the year. My interest in one of these is waning and I'm looking at the new panasonic GX85, which seems to have overcome the shutter shock issue with it's newly designed shutter. Twin lens kit with 12-32 and 35-100 lenses is currently quoted as £729, which will innevitably drop.

David

 

 

 

Thanks David but I do not like 4/3rd sensors. Tried them with Olympus some time ago. Not a happy experience.

 

Also I am not looking at another interchangeable lens outfit. Basically a high end point and shoot with decent zoom and 1" sensor.

 

Allan

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I would guess, as Wim says, that is simply down to the camera profile but it seems that the number of camera profiles available in LR or ACR for Sony cameras is limited (not based on experience - just hearsay and could be wrong but seems to be what Wim is saying as well). Profiles are great as they give a basis from which to work from but they are not essential as there are workarounds.

 

So how do the same images look if you were to shoot JPEG - not something I would generally suggest being an absolute raw advocate but it might be worth a shot or two. Alternatively use the vibrance and HSL controls in LR to boost saturation and balance colours the way you like and then save as a preset or make it a LR default for that camera.

 

 

I've tried going with jpegs twice, and it didn't work out. It didn't save me any PP time at all, because most of my Post time is spent cleaning up the streets of NYC. I'd rather do that on a tiff in CS5.

 

Wim is a much more savvy tech person than I am, and I don't always have the basic knowledge to follow his advice. The fact -- the detail -- that's interesting here is that my neon images of colored lights captured on my Sonys is only sometimes a problem. Sometimes everything works just fine. 

 

 

The best analogy for camera profiles is using a range of different films but, unlike with film, you can decide which to use after you shoot as long as you shoot raw. As spacecadet has discovered, Camera Vivid is like Velvia on steroids but there are other options. I don't know what profiles are availabale for your Sony cameras but it really is worth having a go - it is very simple - not high tech at all - one click in LR and you're away. In the Develop module, scroll down to the bottom right - Camera Calibration and select a profile from the list. The default is Adobe Standard but there should be others available. It is also easy to change the default on a camera by camera basis or you can just change on a shot by shot basis.

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Thanks for your advice and encouragement, MDM. I have looked at that section of LR5.7, and I confess to being a little afraid to monkey with it; it seems like changing a couple of ingredients in my special pasta sauce.  

 

In looking at the many colored lights images in my collection, I'm mostly happy with the results. I wouldn't want to change my basic setup. Once in a while, a subject just won't work. 

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Ed, are you sure one of the colour channels isn't clipping, even just a tiny bit, on the problem images? Failing that, maybe something to do with the presence or lack of aa filter. I read somewhere that the the D800 (with aa filter) has marginally better colour fidelity than the D810 ( without filter).

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Unlike the pasta sauce you can take the extra garlic back out again and try a bit more basil. Worth a try- I'm pleased to have been told how to use calibration.

 

Great stuff. Now for the next step: you can actually edit the generic profiles if you want using the FREE, yes absolutely FREE, DNG Profile Editor from Adobe and save these profiles so that you have them available in LR. The DNG Profile Editor is a little opaque initially but definitely worth a look. You can, for example, save a less saturated version with the emphasis on accurate skin tones for portraiture (like Adobe provide with their Camera Portrait profile). The idea is you are producing profiles for your specific camera and needs.

 

Take it a step further (involves  spending money) and you can buy a 24-patch Color Checker from which you can create your own profiles for your own camera or camera-lens combos even better. This is really simple to do and it gives you near-total control over your colours. Total control comes when you buy a hardware calibrator. :)

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