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dustydingo

Sorry, we don't have a budget for photos . . .

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It's an interesting world . . .

 

I recently photographed Gunner's Day march/commemoration. Local non-profit veterans' association asked if they could see my images, and my price-list, with a view to purchasing some to show in their quarterly (non-profit) magazine. The very same day, contacted by local for-profit newspaper, asking if they could use some of my images . . . but they don't have a budget for images, so they would like them for free.

 

I immediately offered the non-profit the one-off use of images for their magazine for no fee.

 

I immediately informed the for-profit newspaper there would be a fee (not sure what yet, but a fee there will be).

 

Curmudgeonly? Unashamedly.

 

So, my question is, what fee would you ask of the newspaper?

 

dd

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During the St Jude Storm, I tweeted that I had some pictures and I was contacted by my local paid-for newspaper. They wanted to use the pictures for "a credit". I politely declined and pointed them to the pictures on Alamy.

 

I don't know about Australian local papers. The only 'local' papers that I have read when I have been out there are the state / city papers. 

 

What fee would you ask of a local newspaper? What fee do you think you would get? 

 

In the UK, I would expect you would get £40 ish from a local paper (if you were lucky). The day rate for the local papers around me is only £100 or so.

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Every time I shoot editorial images of a newsworthy event (and sometimes not so newsworthy), I tweet what I have with a hashtag and with reference to interested parties.  That also gets posted to my Facebook page (Facebook is also searchable by hashtag these days).  The tweet has a link to the images to my Photoshelter website with two price lists attached - one for image licensing usages and another for prints.  Very frequently, I will get comments back in the form of a response to my tweet about the images.  If they are going to be licensed, it is clear that I have set the prices up front and that's what the images are set to be licensed at.  I'm using a discounted percentage from FotoQuote software (as integrated via Photoshelter).

 

I stopped playing games with these non-profits a few years ago.  The local "literacy foundation" director asked me to drive 4 hours round trip per day, spend 8 - 10 hours per day, to document a 3 day event so that I could provide the organization "with all usage rights in a royalty free manner" and demanded that I agree that if I licensed any of the images that I would provide 30% of the net revenue back to their organization.  I was rather pointed in my response, and I didn't hold back.  I haven't been bothered since.

 

I don't care if it's a for profit or a not-for-profit magazine, if they don't have a budget for photos, then they better darn well sell more advertising space in that magazine to give their viewers something to look at (your photos) or they will no longer be in business.  Selling advertising space in the magazine to fund stories and photos IS THEIR BUSINESS.  It's not your job to support them for free.

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Every time I shoot editorial images of a newsworthy event (and sometimes not so newsworthy), I tweet what I have with a hashtag and with reference to interested parties.  That also gets posted to my Facebook page (Facebook is also searchable by hashtag these days).  The tweet has a link to the images to my Photoshelter website with two price lists attached - one for image licensing usages and another for prints.  Very frequently, I will get comments back in the form of a response to my tweet about the images.  If they are going to be licensed, it is clear that I have set the prices up front and that's what the images are set to be licensed at.  I'm using a discounted percentage from FotoQuote software (as integrated via Photoshelter).

 

I stopped playing games with these non-profits a few years ago.  The local "literacy foundation" director asked me to drive 4 hours round trip per day, spend 8 - 10 hours per day, to document a 3 day event so that I could provide the organization "with all usage rights in a royalty free manner" and demanded that I agree that if I licensed any of the images that I would provide 30% of the net revenue back to their organization.  I was rather pointed in my response, and I didn't hold back.  I haven't been bothered since.

 

I don't care if it's a for profit or a not-for-profit magazine, if they don't have a budget for photos, then they better darn well sell more advertising space in that magazine to give their viewers something to look at (your photos) or they will no longer be in business.  Selling advertising space in the magazine to fund stories and photos IS THEIR BUSINESS.  It's not your job to support them for free.

Ed, in my case the non-profit WAS willing to pay. It was the for-profit that didn't have a budget for images.

 

dd

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I've done my bit for both charities and local newspapers (with no budget for pictures) over the years. My answer now is always the same, you want to use my pictures? 25 quid, take it or leave it sunshine!

 

You might be a registered charity, but I'm not!

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I've done my bit for both charities and local newspapers (with no budget for pictures) over the years. My answer now is always the same, you want to use my pictures? 25 quid, take it or leave it sunshine!

 

You might be a registered charity, but I'm not!

 

I have asked the newspaper for $25 per image.

 

The non-profit veterans' association, WHO RIGHT FROM THE WORD GO OFFERED TO PAY, I have offered one-off use, print only, gratis.

 

I'm comfortable with that.

 

dd

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I managed to get pictures of a crash on the M8 motorway in Glasgow that held everyone up for half the day. I tweeted about it, and STV asked if I could send them the pics. I sent them a link to the pics on Alamy News and they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

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I managed to get pictures of a crash on the M8 motorway in Glasgow that held everyone up for half the day. I tweeted about it, and STV asked if I could send them the pics. I sent them a link to the pics on Alamy News and they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

I had a very similar experience with one of the "bargain of the day" websites . . . they said they were used to getting their images for $5 a pop from one of the micros . . . I said that wasn't a problem, if they could get images they wanted from the micros cheaper than I was charging, then it made good business sense for them that they should do so . . . never heard from them again, not a problem, no harm done. The pic by the way was a pretty cool indoor-cricket action shot, not the sort of thing you can get on the micros (well, not then, don't know/care about now), so it was obvious they settled for something perhaps "good enough". In my opinion, never let that be a reason for you to recoil from your standards, and never let anyone make you feel guilty about charging for your work.

 

Having said all that, the number of buyers who have contacted me and agreed to a "good" price far outnumber those seeking freebies, although that may be an effect of me not doing a lot of "news" and thereby not attracting lots of approaches from newspapers "without budgets for images".

 

dd

Edited by dustydingo

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 they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

 

You were there, anyone was not.

 

Allan

 

PS Have been reading your other thread. Don't become downhearted and good luck with your future submissions.

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I managed to get pictures of a crash on the M8 motorway in Glasgow that held everyone up for half the day. I tweeted about it, and STV asked if I could send them the pics. I sent them a link to the pics on Alamy News and they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

Paul, I would offer one bit of advice, for what it's worth--when turning down requests for freebies, I make a point of doing so professionally and respectfully. Always. Remember, the "no budget for images" just might one day be altered just a tad, and it would be poor business practise to do anything to remove you and your work (and your prices) from the field should that happen.

 

And it does happen . . .

 

dd

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they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

 

Presumably, then, they don't pay their journalists, since anyone could have written a few words, and they don't pay their presenters since anyone could stand in front of a camera and speak.

 

And if an answer came back that suggested that these were viewed as skilled professions, they would get a 7-letter reply from me with a space after the 4th letter.

 

Alan

Edited by Inchiquin
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I managed to get pictures of a crash on the M8 motorway in Glasgow that held everyone up for half the day. I tweeted about it, and STV asked if I could send them the pics. I sent them a link to the pics on Alamy News and they sent back a really immature reply about me wanting paid for pictures anyone could have got.

 

I've been paid by STV in the past but unfortuntely they try and crowdsource everything nowadays, especially since they and the BBC have their 'local' interweb sites to fill with news/pics/videos.

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I got pictures of the local air ambulance landing in the centre of town for an emergency, bringing the traffic to a standstill for two hours. Big local story. I sent the local paper - part of a huge group with a massive annual turnover - a link to the photos. Same story - yes, we'd like to use them. Pay? Oh, we don't pay. I sent them for free to the Air Ambulance - a registered charity.

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Cambridge news tell me they do not pay for photos. So I refuse to send any now. I e mailed them saying that the the paper boy who delivers my paper gets paid. Why not a photographer? Got no reply. It's crazy.

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dd, the individuals themselves may wish to buy prints.

Aah, retail, what fond memories of being paid in advance by people who say 'thankyou.'

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Next time someone asks to use one of your images for nothing, you might want to take a leaf out of this musician's book....

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A holiday home company wanted to use some of my stuff in their brochures and pamphlets, and very kindly they offered to give me a credit. They went quiet when I said "They are not free." I was tempted to say "I saw you holiday home and was tempted to stay for a week. If you let me I'll put a link on my site."

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Next time someone asks to use one of your images for nothing, you might want to take a leaf out of this musician's book....

 

Well he won't be on the shortlist when they do have some money for music.

Edited by spacecadet

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Next time someone asks to use one of your images for nothing, you might want to take a leaf out of this musician's book....

Well he won't be on the shortlist when they do have some money for music.

 

Very likely not, but the way that e-mail has gone viral, he'll likely have interest from other sources.

 

All this sort of thing kind of reminds me of the start of Punk...when all the record companies went from ignoring the 'yoof' to suddenly finding millions for any Tom, Dick or Harry.

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DD...my position is the same whether they are non-profit or for-profit.  Think of it this way, how many travel images have you seen on CNN, on a news website, or on a travel website that are credited "courtesy of xxxxxxxx Chamber of Commerce" or "courtesy Town of xxxxx"?

 

Those Chambers of Commerce or Towns or whatever agency are usually non-profits....and I seriously doubt that it was one of THEIR HIRED PHOTOGRAPHERS that took those images that they are passing out for free to the news or travel website.  That's money coming out of our pockets and it's why I've learned to be bitter about the whole thing.

 

Science fiction writer Harlan Ellison (not appropriate for work) expresses my position clearly in the documentary about his life called "Dreams With Sharp Teeth" 

 

http://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE

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This local paper bunkum started in the UK in the 1970's with a number of groups 'sacking' long serving local freelances and asking organizations to send in their own pictures for free use - it spread from the weeklies to the evening provincials and it is rare indeed that  a provincial paper pays - TV is now following and to make matters worse they ask the contributor to grant them the rights to syndicate the still/footage to other stations.

 

It is with great delight that I can reveal that one evening local used one of my old pictures that they took from their library without paying - but pay they did in the end when my License Compliance people made contact.

 

Can't agree with you on this one Ed - I do give away a lot to good causes when they take the trouble to ask - but financially sound newspaper groups just boosting their profits - NO !

 

DD $25 is a little low, but you know what the going rate is down there - here it would be about the same in pounds sterling.....

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In the 80s the local paper printed the odd picture from a society I was involved with. Naturally being a professional photographer I invoiced, and naturally they paid, commission or not. But there wasn't the oversupply then and enprints from Boots couldn't compete.

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Our national broadcaster tried that on with me awhile back but I pointed out to her that the ABC had a budget for her salary, her producer's salary and the web developer's fee so why did they think that photographers were expected to donate their work gratis? Got no response!

 

Sheila

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Can't agree with you on this one Ed - I do give away a lot to good causes when they take the trouble to ask - but financially sound newspaper groups just boosting their profits - NO !

 

David, I am not against giving to charities - in fact through some good fortune, I was able to donate about $6,000 to a charity just last month.  I received a receipt, and I do have the ability to write that amount off on my U.S. taxes this year....but I am not going to devalue my work and my efforts, as well as undermine the efforts of other photographers, by giving away rights to my images, and then allowing them to re-distribute those images to news agencies or travel companies to use as they please.

 

All parties involved get a better benefit from a straight donation of cash - and with that donation, maybe next time they'll be able to afford to license an image appropriately - if not from me, then from another photographer.

Edited by Ed Endicott

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Ed, you may note I said "one-off use in their magazine" . . . not "giving away the rights to my images". I do not agree that allowing pro bono work for selected targets is in any way undermining the right of other photographers (in the absence of your introduced "giving away the rights to my images" concept which up until now was not part of my discussion) . . .


 

This bloody "quote" function does strange things to my posts sometimes . . . I'm responding to Ed Endicott's comments below:


 

"David, I am not against giving to charities - in fact through some good fortune, I was able to donate about $6,000 to a charity just last month.  I received a receipt, and I do have the ability to write that amount off on my U.S. taxes this year....but I am not going to devalue my work and my efforts, as well as undermine the efforts of other photographers, by giving away rights to my images, and then allowing them to re-distribute those images to news agencies or travel companies to use as they please.

 

All parties involved get a better benefit from a straight donation of cash - and with that donation, maybe next time they'll be able to afford to license an image appropriately - if not from me, then from another photographer."

 

 

dd

Edited by dustydingo
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