Have just cancelled adobe lightroom .....

[Russell Watkins]

9 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Surely the unique selling point of Lightroom is that it is a very powerful database, there is nothing like it and never has been*...

 

Nope. Lightroom was (and still is) a poor imitation of the app that started it all, Apple's Aperture. That Apple let Aperture wither on the vine is a real shame.

[Harry Harrison]

51 minutes ago, Russell Watkins said:

That Apple let Aperture wither on the vine is a real shame.

Good point, I didn't have Macs at that time so didn't have a chance to use it. IView Media Pro had a lot of fans as well but Capture One bought it and then failed to do anything with it. Pity, they were in a very good position to do so.  Actually I don't think database features help to sell mainstream software because they are quite difficult to sell to the uninitiated. Adobe do a very poor job of explaining it on their website and concentrate solely on its image processing capabilities. It doesn't help that there are now two different version of Lightroom either, 'Lightroom' and 'Lightroom Classic', totally different from each other.

 

Unfortunately It is also difficult to migrate from one database system to another without losing much of what made that system valuable to you.

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Harry Harrison said:

Surely the unique selling point of Lightroom is that it is a very powerful database, there is nothing like it and never has been*, so comparing it with other programs that just do image processing is like comparing apples with oranges, but fair enough if you only want apples I suppose.

 

The keywording and captioning side is very comprehensive and can be enhanced with inexpensive plugins. All image processing is non-destructive as the edits are also stored in the database, alternative edits are stored virtually so do not take up any room on your hard drive. The Print module is excellent, again different layouts, templates and paper setups can be stored virtually, printing from Photoshop is like going back to the Dark Ages. You can search your entire archive quickly using a huge array of different parameters, keywords and captions of course, but also by lens used, camera used, date shot, aperture, shutter speed, ISO etc. etc.  'Smart' collections can easily be created to bring certain types of images to your attention and you can also create your own Collections and Collection Sets to do the same thing.

 

 

 

The other unique selling point is its very close integration with Photoshop. Lightroom (Classic) is in a class of its own for the database facilities as well as the other positives Harry mentions. In addition, there is the ease of use of the development module in comparison to using ACR with Bridge. But one will only appreciate the power of Lightroom if one actually explores it in full. Other apps may work and even work well but there is no combination that provides the ease of use, data management, excellent raw converter (with world class noise reduction), integrated color management and the absolute power of Photoshop for editing for those who wish to avail of that power. 

 

[Russell Watkins]

4 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

Good point, I didn't have Macs at that time so didn't have a chance to use it. IView Media Pro had a lot of fans as well but Capture One bought it and then failed to do anything with it. Pity, they were in a very good position to do so.  Actually I don't think database features help to sell mainstream software because they are quite difficult to sell to the uninitiated. Adobe do a very poor job of explaining it on their website and concentrate solely on its image processing capabilities. It doesn't help that there are now two different version of Lightroom either, 'Lightroom' and 'Lightroom Classic', totally different from each other.

 

Unfortunately It is also difficult to migrate from one database system to another without losing much of what made that system valuable to you.

 

I'm always surprised at how few people see the advantages of an image database, especially amongst stock photographers.

 

[Allan Bell]

9 hours ago, sb photos said:

 

Hope the Prolost software works for you Allan. I use the ACR Dehaze fairly infrequently, but it's essential to reduce OTT smoke from an on stage smoke machine, to reduce the effect of smoke from flares, and more recently to cut through or reduce early morning fog/mist. You have to be careful not to push the slider too far over as it increases noise.

 

Thank you Steve.  I have been using the Dehaze tool in LRC for a while now and use it quite a bit. When used in moderation it is good for increasing mid-tone contrast for some images from the Sony lenses I use which are short on contrast in some cases. Usually about 8 to 12 max on the slider.  Of course I would not use it in the case of news images.

 

Allan

 

[Allan Bell]

4 hours ago, MDM said:

 

The other unique selling point is its very close integration with Photoshop. Lightroom (Classic) is in a class of its own for the database facilities as well as the other positives Harry mentions. In addition, there is the ease of use of the development module in comparison to using ACR with Bridge. But one will only appreciate the power of Lightroom if one actually explores it in full. Other apps may work and even work well but there is no combination that provides the ease of use, data management, excellent raw converter (with world class noise reduction), integrated color management and the absolute power of Photoshop for editing for those who wish to avail of that power. 

 

 

I still wish Adobe would licence LRC on it's own without the other stuff.  I would stay with it for £5 a month just for LRC.

 

Allan

 

[Sally]

5 hours ago, MDM said:

 

The other unique selling point is its very close integration with Photoshop. Lightroom (Classic) is in a class of its own for the database facilities as well as the other positives Harry mentions. In addition, there is the ease of use of the development module in comparison to using ACR with Bridge. But one will only appreciate the power of Lightroom if one actually explores it in full. Other apps may work and even work well but there is no combination that provides the ease of use, data management, excellent raw converter (with world class noise reduction), integrated color management and the absolute power of Photoshop for editing for those who wish to avail of that power. 

 

Agree, totally. I couldn’t live without it.

[AM Chang]

Just in case,

digiKam, an open source "pro" photo management with EXIF, IPTC and XMP metadata editor.
https://www.digikam.org

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Jansos]

I am just about to buy a new version of Lightroom to go with a new Mac Mini (M2 chip) and would be curious to know what version of Lightroom you folk are using? My instinct is to go with Lightroom Classic but perhaps not so useful when travelling? Poll here: https://take.quiz-maker.com/poll4931834x504cC93D-152

[Rebecca Ore]

41 minutes ago, Jansos said:

I am just about to buy a new version of Lightroom to go with a new Mac Mini (M2 chip) and would be curious to know what version of Lightroom you folk are using? My instinct is to go with Lightroom Classic but perhaps not so useful when travelling? Poll here: https://take.quiz-maker.com/poll4931834x504cC93D-152

 

Are you planning to travel with the Mini?   You can synchronize your LR Classic with the Adobe servers, either some or all of your files, and use an iPad, iPhone, or laptop in the field and LR Classic at home on the Mini.   Lightroom in the cloud may not have all LR Classic's features, but check.   You can set LR (cloud) put to make local copies, too.   If you're doing news, having instant transmission matters.   If not, just take plenty of memory cards or a portable storage drive, and do the editing back on the machine at home with perhaps a better monitor setup.

 

I took hundred of shots in Mexico and didn't process them until I came back home.  Didn't have a good connection at the hotel for uploading anyway.  Friend who was traveling in Chile and Nicaragua said he didn't have a good connection at a Chilean resort hotel.   Mine and a local Jinotega hotel's were better.  So, where you travel is another consideration for working from the cloud. Another possible consideration is how happy will other people you might be traveling with be if you spend the day focused on taking pictures and then the evenings on processing them.   The iPads are useful for doing sorts.   I use mine for photos I've taken with phones and tablets.  They can be had cheap if you don't go for the pro versions.

 

Whole different set of considerations for news, but copying to a phone or tablet can be set up, and would be easier than traveling with a monitor, Mini, keyboard, and mouse.  If you did new a lot, a small laptop would  be useful. 

[NYCat]

I use Lightroom Classic.

 

Paulette

[Marianne]

@Jansos

I don't think you can beat the combo of LR Classic and Photoshop for ease of organization & speed of processing. And it processes RAW files nearly as well (or better in the case of Olympus) than any of the other admittedly excellent but much more time consuming software out there (IMHO).

 

I used to use the Nikon Nik software when I started and it was better at processing RAW files, but a much slower workflow, so I eventually decided to do everything in the Adobe software. These days I still use the Nik filter plugins for certain images, but that base software is long gone. 

 

I also tried Capture One when I got my first Sony A7rii (I also have the A7riv) and it was slightly better at processing RAW files, but so much slower and it seemed to make additional copies of my images, plus its organization wasn't good at all.

 

The best thing about Lightroom, besides its speed, the new masks, and its easy integration with Photoshop and myriad plugins from other companies, is that you can search for photos that aren't even on your computer nor on a connected disk but if they are in your catalog, you can locate what disk they are on and see your entire library - even if it's over 150,000 images - in one place without the need to be connected to a huge backup drive. My 2TB Mackbook Pro hard drive can't even hold all of my new images given their size, so for me, the organizational capacity of LR Classic is essential. And making virtual copies when I'm playing with colors and filters in my fine art work or looking at different crops for art and/or stock is another big advantage. 

 

I have found that LR is slower with my 62MP Sony RAW files and I may need to upgrade my computer, despite a fast processor and 32GB RAM, to one with the new M2 chip, but you won't have that issue. 

 

Are they raising the price? I've gotten LR/PS free for the past 4 or so years due to making the target # of sales on their stock site, but I don't think they're continuing with that program, so I'll have to pay for it sometime next year, but I guess it's like paying for cell phone service or other utilities - it's essential to my work and an incredibly robust program. 

[StokeCreative]

On 04/09/2022 at 19:04, vpics said:

I never got my head around Lightroom. I edit everything in Adobe RAW and then save in Photoshop. As Lightroom is included in the about 10 quid subscription, I don't bother going anywhere else.

Me too, ACR in Photoshop does everything LR does (except for the cataloguing AFAIK)

[Thomas Kyhn]

On 05/09/2022 at 09:17, Harry Harrison said:

Capture One and Photo Mechanic Plus claim to offer a database function but they can't really be compared.

 

I switched from Lightroom to Capture One a few years ago and stayed with it because of its editing functions, and in spite of its poor database/catalogue function and lack of optimization for Apple Silicon. And Photo Mechanic Plus is no help, as (for one thing) its unable to show variants/virtual copies.

[Harry Harrison]

2 hours ago, Thomas Kyhn said:

I switched from Lightroom to Capture One a few years ago and stayed with it because of its editing functions, and in spite of its poor database/catalogue function and lack of optimization for Apple Silicon. And Photo Mechanic Plus is no help, as (for one thing) its unable to show variants/virtual copies.

Thanks, that's interesting to know, I didn't know that. I think I'd be with Capture One as well (I believe it's good with Fuji RAW files and the last time I looked you didn't have to go for the subscription model) but I really like the database function in Lightroom so I guess I'm stuck with it as there really does seem to be no alternative if you want it to work on both PC & Mac as I do. I don't get the impression that they have improved the database functionality at all and really they don't even seem to promote it very much to prospective buyers. It's quite hard to explain unless you've used it so I suppose people just don't know what they're missing.

 

Edit: Just looked at the (old) thread to see that I'm repeating myself here, not for the first time.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Harry Harrison

[Thomas Kyhn]

25 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Thanks, that's interesting to know, I didn't know that. I think I'd be with Capture One as well (I believe it's good with Fuji RAW files and the last time I looked you didn't have to go for the subscription model) but I really like the database function in Lightroom so I guess I'm stuck with it as there really does seem to be no alternative if you want it to work on both PC & Mac as I do. I don't get the impression that they have improved the database functionality at all and really they don't even seem to promote it very much to prospective buyers. It's quite hard to explain unless you've used it so I suppose people just don't know what they're missing.

 

One major difference between between Lightroom and Capture One, in my experience, is speed/responsiveness with larger catalogues. Whereas Lightroom brings up search results almost instantly, Capture One always becomes unresponsive for a while before bringing up the results, and the more images you have in a catalogue, the longer it's unresponsive. So far this part of the software has had very little priority, and there's no indication that it will be improved any time soon.

[Harry Harrison]

In danger of repeating myself even more but no wonder Jansos is perplexed.

 

If you google 'Lightroom' you're going to end up here under the heading "Adobe Lightroom - Photo Editing For All Levels"

 

No mention of Lightroom Classic at all but you can "Take quiz" to see what plan is best for you. Again none of the 5 questions mention Lightroom Classic but if you decide that you are an 'Advanced' user then the final decision is presented as a choice between how much Cloud Storage you want, a pathetic 20GB or 1TB and above.

 

If you are in the know and have actually heard that Adobe make something called 'Lightroom Classic' then you might find this page where you are at least told that you can "Easily organise all your photos on your desktop" though that doesn't really suggest that there might be powerful professional database functionality. At the bottom of the page you are linked back to the cloud-based version. I don't get the impression that their marketing team know anything about Lightroom Classic, to them it would be like choosing a Morris Minor over a Tesla.

 

Edit: For anyone who doesn't know what a Morris Minor looks like you can find images on Alamy - but make sure you're logged in!

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Harry Harrison

[Harry Harrison]

1 minute ago, Thomas Kyhn said:

So far this part of the software has had very little priority, and there's no indication that it will be improved any time soon.

It's just a difficult 'sell' I think. I suppose realistically investing in it isn't going to produce enough returns, again because it's so difficult to explain.

[Allan Bell]

I simply went for the whole package at the time it was offered when Adobe decided to stop updating LR16.

 

The package was, and still is, £9.98/month for LrC (classic) and PS and Lr and cloud storage 20GB. I do not use Cloud as I have my own storage system.

 

Only used LrC for processing, titling and keywording. Recently downloaded PS but not keen on it so will stick with LrC. It does everything I need or want.

 

I still have the option to download and use Lr on my iPad if I wish at no extra cost.

 

Allan

 

If anyone takes the subscription package up then decides to cancel soon after beware you will be charged for a full year of use. The monthly subscription is a yearly contract with Adobe and will charge for the full year.

 

ITMA

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Allan Bell

[DDoug]

I have Photoshop and Lightroom, but for raw processing I prefer Silkypix. It has HDR, Dehaze, Clarity, etc., and in my opinion does a better job with controling noise than ACR. The current version, #11, is under $150 and the outdated Silkypic Developer Studio Pro 10 is under $35. They also offer brand-specific versions for cheap, so that's what I use for my Fujifilm files. For older digital files and scanned images, I use Silkypix 10.

https://shop.isl.co.jp/?lang=en

[Russell Watkins]

22 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

It's just a difficult 'sell' I think. I suppose realistically investing in it isn't going to produce enough returns, again because it's so difficult to explain.

 

Phase One have a different market, I think. They are targeting photographers who connect their camera direct to computer and shoot in what they call "Sessions", so there's no ingestion needed.

 

Then when the photographer wants to find an image, they'll look for, say, the folder from June 2023 containing headshots for Joe Bloggs PLC (that will likely be called 2306-JoeBloggsHeadshots or similar) and the shot will be there in that session folder from the shoot. They're not really going for the "woman eating ice cream in front of the Eiffel Tower" crowd which is what Lightroom and Photo Mechanic and to some extent, Bridge and the now-defunct Aperture et al excel(led) at. 

 

And as has been said many times in this thread, there are many who don't realise that this type of granular search function is the prime feature of a DAM like Lightroom.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Russell Watkins

[Thomas Kyhn]

On 16/09/2023 at 09:50, Russell Watkins said:

Phase One have a different market, I think. They are targeting photographers who connect their camera direct to computer and shoot in what they call "Sessions", so there's no ingestion needed.

 

Then when the photographer wants to find an image, they'll look for, say, the folder from June 2023 containing headshots for Joe Bloggs PLC (that will likely be called 2306-JoeBloggsHeadshots or similar) and the shot will be there in that session folder from the shoot. They're not really going for the "woman eating ice cream in front of the Eiffel Tower" crowd which is what Lightroom and Photo Mechanic and to some extent, Bridge and the now-defunct Aperture et al excel(led) at. 

 

Capture One was split off from Phase One in 2019. And it has both sessions and catalogues; I think initially it only had sessions. As for tethering, they appear to have expanded their focus considerably beyond this usage. Many Capture One users don't use tethering at all, and if you look at their tutorials and live sessions, they're often about photography/editing that doesn't involve tethering.

[Gervais Montacute]

I'm about to switch from LR5 to Photolab DxO 6.

[Russell Watkins]

22 hours ago, Thomas Kyhn said:

 

Capture One was split off from Phase One in 2019. And it has both sessions and catalogues; I think initially it only had sessions. As for tethering, they appear to have expanded their focus considerably beyond this usage. Many Capture One users don't use tethering at all, and if you look at their tutorials and live sessions, they're often about photography/editing that doesn't involve tethering.

 

I know that now that it has both sessions and catalogs. I used Capture One up until v20. My point was that it was developed (pun intended) in a different way to LR and Aperture.

 

Phase One bolted on catalogs to Capture One as an afterthought after they bought Media Pro (which was Microsoft's Expression Media DAM software) and saw which way the wind was blowing. AFAICT, in spite of that, for some reason, Capture One have paid scant attention to the catalog side of the code but concentrated on the raw development aspect. 

[Russell Watkins]

Further to my post above, and prompted by @Thomas Kyhn's, I wonder if there's something inherently difficult about adding a database to something? Aperture and then LR were developed (and so started out) as databases that happened to be able to do some image processing too. Aperture's database was the best I've used but LR was no slouch. I'd still be using Aperture today if Apple had not binned it. I liked LR too but, y'know, Adobe and subs...

 

On the other hand, Capture One have seemingly had/have difficulties getting their database to play ball. And Photo Mechanic promised database functionality for years before they finally released it; it was a brilliant metadata handler when I used it without a database. Perhaps getting databases talking to other code has unintended consequences.

 

(Yes, I have been very promiscuous when it comes to DAMs).