What is reasonable?

[ribeiroantonio]

Is it reasonable to buy something from a shop (any type of shop) and return it, say, three years later and ask for a refund? Do you know anyone in this world who would accept that? I don’t. At least until today.

 

As far as I know, Alamy is the only “shop” in the world who accepts that practice. I have had returns with other stock agencies but never within a three year time frame. Two or three months yes, but three years never. Imagine the shop owner agreeing to accept back and refund something that has been bought and left the store three years ago. It would be a situation truly laughable. 

 

That is exactly what happened to me on 22 December 2021:

 

	G7FY1H	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XI	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99
	G7GWM4	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XIV	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99

 

I just wrote a complain to Alamy and I’m waiting for there answer. 

 

What do you think about it? Is it right? Is it in our contract with Alamy? 

[Joseph Clemson]

I can see no way that a refund after such a length of time can be seen as justifiable or right.

 

The contributor contract make no reference to how refunds are handled nor that refunds are limited to any length of time. It merely infers that the possibility exists.

 

The RM buyer licence (I don't know about the RF licence) specifies that content which has not been downloaded can be refunded within 14 days on request. After download has taken place there should be even less of a chance of refund, according to the licence agreement

 

'11.2  Once you download a purchased item of Content, you agree that you have no right to a refund, unless expressly stated otherwise in the Agreement.'

 

Yet these refunds keep turning up, sometimes after many years. Unjustifiable morally and contractually, in ,my view.

 

I can understand that Alamy want to keep good business relations with longstanding and profitable customers where licences purchased have not actually been used, but that ought to be their business expense, not at the expense of the contributor. I made my one and only $$$ sale some five years ago and if it were refunded it would wipe out all my earnings in the succeeding years and probably all my future earnings until death. Yet, I can't rule out the possibility it might happen! Good grief, this is madness, no basis for any kind of legitimate business planning and would be greatly detrimental to my mental health if I were to allow the possibility to prey on my mind.

 

If Alamy feel their business model requires the option of customer refunds, it should be strictly time limited, set down contractually for both contributor and customer and abided by with no exceptions. Then we all know where we stand and we won't live in permanent fear that a significant chunk of our income can be whisked away without so much as a by-your-leave.

 

I look forward to hearing what Alamy have to say to your query, though based on what I know Alamy to be like nowadays, I hold out little hope of a generous response.

[M.Chapman]

15 hours ago, ribeiroantonio said:

 

Is it reasonable to buy something from a shop (any type of shop) and return it, say, three years later and ask for a refund? Do you know anyone in this world who would accept that? I don’t. At least until today.

 

As far as I know, Alamy is the only “shop” in the world who accepts that practice. I have had returns with other stock agencies but never within a three year time frame. Two or three months yes, but three years never. Imagine the shop owner agreeing to accept back and refund something that has been bought and left the store three years ago. It would be a situation truly laughable. 

 

That is exactly what happened to me on 22 December 2021:

 

	G7FY1H	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XI	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99
	G7GWM4	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XIV	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99

 

I just wrote a complain to Alamy and I’m waiting for there answer. 

 

What do you think about it? Is it right? Is it in our contract with Alamy? 

Noting the $19.99 fee, was the original licence for personal use? Even more ridiculous if it was....

 

Mark

[wiskerke]

There have been some exceptional re-funds over time:  a couple of defaults/bankruptcies (the Brazil distributor was pretty big) and a some credit card frauds. PU's are usually paid by cc.

Some very late re-funds have been book projects or calendars that got cancelled. Calendars therefore can take very long before they have to be reported by the client. I have seen complete calendars offered online with all images (including some of mine) that later turned out never to have made it into print: not enough takers.

Now with Covid/Corona I can imagine lots of scenarios like that including the most definite default of them all.

 

wim

[Phil]

There's usually always a case for customer refunds - within reason.  3 years is not, 

 

Other image licensing platforms also offer refunds  - one I know of is within 24 hrs after purchase.  That's reasonable.

[geogphotos]

Perhaps the images were never downloaded.

 

Maybe best to wait for the response from Alamy.

[Phil Robinson]

On 01/01/2022 at 02:02, ribeiroantonio said:

 

Is it reasonable to buy something from a shop (any type of shop) and return it, say, three years later and ask for a refund? Do you know anyone in this world who would accept that? I don’t. At least until today.

 

As far as I know, Alamy is the only “shop” in the world who accepts that practice. I have had returns with other stock agencies but never within a three year time frame. Two or three months yes, but three years never. Imagine the shop owner agreeing to accept back and refund something that has been bought and left the store three years ago. It would be a situation truly laughable. 

 

That is exactly what happened to me on 22 December 2021:

 

	G7FY1H	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XI	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99
	G7GWM4	Oeiras Palacio do Marques XIV	downunder	(22 December 2021)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (12 January 2019)	$ -19.99

 

I just wrote a complain to Alamy and I’m waiting for there answer. 

 

What do you think about it? Is it right? Is it in our contract with Alamy? 

I had a refund last week - also $19.99 "personal use", also from 12th Jan 2019.

Mine was of an artwork on the ceiling of a church in Salzburg - B070A7 - remarkably similar to your two.

 

Anyone else?

 

This really does require an explanation.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Phil Robinson

[Allan Bell]

I have not had a refund from that long ago or for that type of subject so I am neutral in that respect.

 

Me acting as shop steward.

 

Come on Alamy give us an explanation in respect of the above grievances from the members.

 

Allan

 

[Alamy]

Hi all, 

 

We're just catching up with the backlog of emails from the Christmas break, so if you've emailed the team you should recieve a response this week. In this case,  unfortunately our credit control team have been unable to obtain payment from the customer after chasing for 3 years and the sale has been written off. 

 

All the best

Corin 

[Martyn]

57 minutes ago, Alamy said:

In this case,  unfortunately our credit control team have been unable to obtain payment from the customer after chasing for 3 years and the sale has been written off. 

 

All the best

Corin 

 

Could you elaborate on that please ? As far as I am aware, payment is not paid to us the contributors until the client has paid you ... ? If the client hasn't paid you, then you wouldn't have paid the contributor so there wouldn't be any refund ?

[Joseph Clemson]

So it looks like the OP's sale never cleared and was eventually refunded when it became clear that payment was not going to be received. Not a happy situation but it is understandable that the sale should be cancelled under those circumstances.

 

My initial response to the OP was based on a misunderstanding, I thought that the sale had been cleared and funds paid to the contributor and I thought a such refund after three years was unacceptable. This was my mistake.

 

However, I am sure I've seen reports on this forum of other cases where contributors have had sales refunded after the sale had cleared and funds had been paid to the contributor. It would be a good opportunity now for Alamy to provide clarity on whether this kind of refund can occur, weeks, months or even years after cleared funds have been paid. If so, why should it be possible and should not a strict time limit on such refunds be set?

[meanderingemu]

15 minutes ago, Joseph Clemson said:

So it looks like the OP's sale never cleared and was eventually refunded when it became clear that payment was not going to be received. Not a happy situation but it is understandable that the sale should be cancelled under those circumstances.

 

My initial response to the OP was based on a misunderstanding, I thought that the sale had been cleared and funds paid to the contributor and I thought a such refund after three years was unacceptable. This was my mistake.

 

However, I am sure I've seen reports on this forum of other cases where contributors have had sales refunded after the sale had cleared and funds had been paid to the contributor. It would be a good opportunity now for Alamy to provide clarity on whether this kind of refund can occur, weeks, months or even years after cleared funds have been paid. If so, why should it be possible and should not a strict time limit on such refunds be set?

 

 

The only item i don't understand, is the fact the price was 19.99.  Since i have been here, the only licences i have had for these amounts were one time non regular clients.  Wouldn't these have required Credit Card payments?  If it did why is there a need to "chase payment"?

[Allan Bell]

1 hour ago, Martyn said:

 

Could you elaborate on that please ? As far as I am aware, payment is not paid to us the contributors until the client has paid you ... ? If the client hasn't paid you, then you wouldn't have paid the contributor so there wouldn't be any refund ?

 

Accounts refund only. Not cash as non was forthcoming.

 

Allan

 

[M.Chapman]

Aren't PU sales paid for at the time of download?

 

Mark

[meanderingemu]

2 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

Aren't PU sales paid for at the time of download?

 

Mark

 

we never got confirmation from OP that it was PU, we mainly inferred it from the price, but if it is yes.

 

but of course the CC charges could have been cancelled after, or be fraudulent usage. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by meanderingemu

[wiskerke]

1 hour ago, meanderingemu said:

but of course the CC charges could have been cancelled after, or be fraudulent usage. 

 

This has happened before.

 

wim

[Phil Robinson]

5 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

 

we never got confirmation from OP that it was PU, we mainly inferred it from the price, but if it is yes.

 

but of course the CC charges could have been cancelled after, or be fraudulent usage. 

Mine was PU and the OP's two were all the same details and almost identical subjects.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Phil Robinson

[Hasilyus]

That is exactly what happened to me for 160$ also on 11 January 2022:

 

 

 

	2B1G5GY	HHA_9841	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (16 April 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FX3T	HHA_9663	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (16 April 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FX6J	HHA_9665	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (16 April 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1G5TB	HHA_9848	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (16 June 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FTM7	HHA_9634	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (03 October 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FRGN	HHA_9596	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (03 October 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FTM7	HHA_9634	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (03 October 2020)	$ -19.99
	2B1FRGN	HHA_9596	Hasan Hüseyin Albayrak	(11 January 2022)	Royalty-free	Sale refunded - Original sale date (03 October 2020)	$ -19.99

Summary for 01 January 2022 to 16 January 2022 ( 8 item(s) totalling $-159.92 )     I wrote to Alamy and I’m waiting for there answer. But I'm hopeless about situation because its completely odd. If the answer will be odd same as a situation then I will stop to upload on Alamy.   Regards.

[meanderingemu]

i looks like Alamy decided to do a full write off of outstanding sales, still weird to have so many Personal Use that didn't use immediate pay,  

 

You would think Alamy would have communicated ahead if this is what was happening.

[Marianne]

I've had cleared licenses refunded months later. 

 

 

Re: PU sales - I get letting established clients pay net 60 days for periodicals, and longer for books and calendars, as that has traditionally been how the industry works, but with PU sales from unknown entities, not requiring immediate payment seems like a poor business practice. 

... As does allowing refunds after several months, let alone years. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Marianne

[spacecadet]

On 18/01/2022 at 20:44, Marianne said:

with PU sales from unknown entities, not requiring immediate payment

They're paid for with a credit card. Perhaps this was a chargeback and Alamy pursued payment by another method.