Need a new iMac

[Betty LaRue]

3 hours ago, spacecadet said:

I'm not in the market- I haven't bought a new computer since 1981- but fiddling round the back to plug in a USB drive doesn't sound too attractive. And you'd scratch that lovely finish.

Very easy to do, Mark. I do it from time to time, and if I say it’s easy, you can bank on it. says the non-technical gal

Edited to add:

Although I realize that depends on room. My computer is in the middle of a quite large desk, so I can easily stick my head around to see what I’m doing. If it were squeezed into tight quarters, yeah, that wouldn’t be fun.

Point taken. If doing it blind...ergo...scratches.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Betty LaRue

[M.Chapman]

23 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

That's why I’m getting the mid-2020 Intel iMac. It comes with 8GB RAM but I’ve ordered two 16 GB to insert in it.

 

Sorry if I missed this, out of interest how much internal SSD storage did you go for? 256GB or 512GB?

 

Mark

[Betty LaRue]

1 minute ago, M.Chapman said:

 

Sorry if I missed this, out of interest how much internal SSD storage did you go for? 256GB or 512GB?

 

Mark

1 TB, Mark. I tend to have way more folders of “work in Progress” on my desktop, along with Texture folders for my artwork and  some apps and software. I’m one person sleeping in a Queen size bed, and I like my computer roomy, also. It doesn’t get bogged down.

[MDM]

4 hours ago, Allan Bell said:

 

Yeh! A fun look for me too but I won't be buying one. I am not keen on the idea of having everything on one integrated chip. No upgrades are possible as far as I can see.

 

Allan

 

 

Aside from the RAM which is user-upgradeable, there is very little difference between the Intel and M1 iMacs in this regard. in fact the 21" iMacs can't be upgraded at all and only the RAM can be upgraded on the 27" models. The new M1 Macs are all primarily consumer machines - the prosumer and pro machines will probably offer more choice if not direct upgradeability. The best bet is always to go for more than you think you need in terms of RAM and GPU. 

[M.Chapman]

32 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

1 TB, Mark. I tend to have way more folders of “work in Progress” on my desktop, along with Texture folders for my artwork and  some apps and software. I’m one person sleeping in a Queen size bed, and I like my computer roomy, also. It doesn’t get bogged down.

Excellent. 

 

[Colin Woods]

1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

Apple often prioritise aesthetics above ergonomics.

You bet - It drives me nuts. My magic mouse and apple keyboard are down in the basement somewhere. I have a cheapie keyboard with proper size keys and its backlit, not like the gorgeous but horrible-to-use Apple one. Same for the mouse, I have a Logitech mouse that fits nicely in my hand, unlike my wafer thin Apple one.

[MDM]

4 minutes ago, Colin Woods said:

You bet - It drives me nuts. My magic mouse and apple keyboard are down in the basement somewhere. I have a cheapie keyboard with proper size keys and its backlit, not like the gorgeous but horrible-to-use Apple one. Same for the mouse, I have a Logitech mouse that fits nicely in my hand, unlike my wafer thin Apple one.

 

I am very happy with the Apple Magic Mice (the later ones with the in-built battery). You use them like a trackpad, scrolling fingers over them, a light click to select.  You don't need to hold them so much and you are not bending your hand as movement is from scrolling and flicking.  Bending the hand a lot can cause real problems with hand cramps and worse It takes a bit of practice but I would never want to use a a traditional scroll wheel mouse again. 

 

[Betty LaRue]

1 hour ago, MDM said:

 

Aside from the RAM which is user-upgradeable, there is very little difference between the Intel and M1 iMacs in this regard. in fact the 21" iMacs can't be upgraded at all and only the RAM can be upgraded on the 27" models. The new M1 Macs are all primarily consumer machines - the prosumer and pro machines will probably offer more choice if not direct upgradeability. The best bet is always to go for more than you think you need in terms of RAM and GPU. 

I’m extremely comfortable with my decision. I’ll have a machine way better than what I’m using now, and the one I’m using now does the job. The only thing I’d noticed happening with it before I had it cleaned was when I’d save a Tiff, the save bar crept, and if I tried to close the file, I’d get a message it was still saving. Up until recently, it never behaved like that.  Before, I could save and close out immediately. 
You know I’m not technical, but what I think may have caused that is that I had so many folders on my desktop, it may have been taxing my RAM. 
Before I took it to be cleaned, I moved those folders (for safety) to my desktop HDs.

Whatever, the Tiffs are closing out instantly now. Whether that’s due to the internal dust removal or getting the folders tucked away elsewhere, I don’t know.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Betty LaRue

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Betty LaRue said:

I’m extremely comfortable with my decision. I’ll have a machine way better than what I’m using now, and the one I’m using now does the job. The only thing I’d noticed happening with it before I had it cleaned was when I’d save a Tiff, the save bar crept, and if I tried to close the file, I’d get a message it was still saving. Up until recently, it never behaved like that.  Before, I could save and close out immediately. 
You know I’m not technical, but what I think may have caused that is that I had so many folders on my desktop, it may have been taxing my RAM. 
Before I took it to be cleaned, I moved those folders (for safety) to my desktop HDs.

Whatever, the Tiffs are closing out instantly now. Whether that’s due to the internal dust removal or getting the folders tucked away elsewhere, I don’t know.

 

Yes I think so too especially getting the high end GPU and lots of RAM. Your other option would have been to wait until they bring out higher spec iMacs but that could be quite a while. 

 

I suspect your drive may have been too full rather than anything physical (dust) causing slow saving of files. Also Photoshop sometimes needs to use the hard drive as scratch disk if it runs out of actual RAM (happens if you have a lot of files open or are working on large layered images. This could slow things down as well. You can allocate extra RAM to Photoshop in the Prefs. 

 

Here's a tip for the future which you can ignore and I will not be insulted or attempt to coerce you 😀 but why not save as Photoshop PSD files rather than TIFF files? PSD files are quite a bit faster for saving especially if working on layers. There is no advantage to using TIFFs except for someone who might stop using Photoshop down the line and is worried about compatibility but I think you delete the TIFFs anyway after finishing with them so there is actually no advantage at all.

 

EDIT: I meant to say that dust might cause overheating if the fan inlets and outlets get clogged which may well cause a hardware crash. I guess there is a cut-off thermostat, similar to the SB-900 flashgun issues discussed elsewhere?

Edited April 22, 2021 by MDM

[Colin Woods]

2 hours ago, MDM said:

Bending the hand a lot can cause real problems with hand cramps

Mine used ordinary AA batteries and hand cramps is exactly what I had. My mouse-hand was painful all day, which is when I decided it had to go. Maybe when I replace my computer I will try one again, but for now my Logitech scroll wheel mouse works for me. I will be following these M1 iMacs with interest, though my current machine works at the same speed as when I got it in 2013 so my money is safe for now.

[Betty LaRue]

5 hours ago, MDM said:

 

Yes I think so too especially getting the high end GPU and lots of RAM. Your other option would have been to wait until they bring out higher spec iMacs but that could be quite a while. 

 

I suspect your drive may have been too full rather than anything physical (dust) causing slow saving of files. Also Photoshop sometimes needs to use the hard drive as scratch disk if it runs out of actual RAM (happens if you have a lot of files open or are working on large layered images. This could slow things down as well. You can allocate extra RAM to Photoshop in the Prefs. 

 

Here's a tip for the future which you can ignore and I will not be insulted or attempt to coerce you 😀 but why not save as Photoshop PSD files rather than TIFF files? PSD files are quite a bit faster for saving especially if working on layers. There is no advantage to using TIFFs except for someone who might stop using Photoshop down the line and is worried about compatibility but I think you delete the TIFFs anyway after finishing with them so there is actually no advantage at all.

 

EDIT: I meant to say that dust might cause overheating if the fan inlets and outlets get clogged which may well cause a hardware crash. I guess there is a cut-off thermostat, similar to the SB-900 flashgun issues discussed elsewhere?

When you say the drive may have been too full, what drive are you speaking of? The hard drive? I have 3 TB on my old Mac. I had 2 plus free. Now I have 2 1/2 TB free!  😄
Now the RAM...see I don’t fully understand what it does. I know it’s important for PS & LR, working on photos, layers, etc. What I’m not sure of is when I have a lot of folders full of images on my desktop, does the RAM load those behind the scenes? Does having those folders there slow up the RAM operation in PS/LR? Sometimes I have PS, Bridge, LR and the Internet (for research) open at once.

And yes, I save as an 8 bit Tiff until I tag in Bridge, then save the jpeg to an upload folder and another jpeg back to the RAW folder.Then I delete the Tiff. The reason I save the Tiff, however temporarily, is that sometimes when I go back to tag it, I decide it’s a touch dark and use the Brightness adjustment in PS. I don’t want to do that on a jpeg. It doesn’t seem to hurt it enough for me to notice in an 8 bit instead of 16 bit Tiff. So Tiff it is until I know I’m totally happy with it.

Often, when I develop an image then don’t look at it until later when I’m ready to start tagging, I see it with fresh eyes and might make a change here and there.

I do think the blackouts (crashes?) were caused from overheating, and the tech guy who cleaned it thought so, too. But that's just a guess and why I went ahead and placed an order. So far, since the cleaning, everything is back to normal.
I’m just not sure what all of the duties of Mr. RAM is.
Let’s not discuss PSD. 😂 or I might get PTSD.

[M.Chapman]

9 hours ago, Colin Woods said:

You bet - It drives me nuts. My magic mouse and apple keyboard are down in the basement somewhere. I have a cheapie keyboard with proper size keys and its backlit, not like the gorgeous but horrible-to-use Apple one. Same for the mouse, I have a Logitech mouse that fits nicely in my hand, unlike my wafer thin Apple one.

 

I like my wireless Apple keyboard, but my Magic mice (I and II) gave me RSI, so I sold them. As another example of aesthetics overuling ergonomics, who decided it was best to have to turn the Magic Mouse II upside down to charge it, making it unusable whilst charging? I use an old Dell Bluetooth mouse that doesn't need a USB receiver. The only problem with that is that it doesn't connect if I boot my Mac in Recovery Mode, so I have to keep a mouse with USB receiver or cable around.

 

Mark

Edited April 23, 2021 by M.Chapman

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

Now the RAM...see I don’t fully understand what it does. I know it’s important for PS & LR, working on photos, layers, etc. What I’m not sure of is when I have a lot of folders full of images on my desktop, does the RAM load those behind the scenes? Does having those folders there slow up the RAM operation in PS/LR? Sometimes I have PS, Bridge, LR and the Internet (for research) open at once

RAM is high speed "temporary or volatile" silicon chip memory. (It needs constant power, or it forgets what's stored in it)

SSD is slower speed "non-volatile" silicon chip memory that can remember stuff without needing constant power

HDD is much slower speed "non-volatile" magnetic storage on a spinning disk. It can also remember stuff without needing constant power

 

In crude terms, LR or PS load the image(s) you are working on into RAM so it can access/process the pixels really quickly. If you open more and more images in PS (or create more and more layers), it may run out of space in RAM and then it temporarily offloads (swaps) some of what's in RAM to HDD or SDD (depending on what you have available). This slows editing up signiificantly, especially if it has to use a HDD.

 

Mark 

Edited April 23, 2021 by M.Chapman

[MDM]

4 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

When you say the drive may have been too full, what drive are you speaking of? The hard drive? I have 3 TB on my old Mac. I had 2 plus free. Now I have 2 1/2 TB free!  😄
Now the RAM...see I don’t fully understand what it does. I know it’s important for PS & LR, working on photos, layers, etc. What I’m not sure of is when I have a lot of folders full of images on my desktop, does the RAM load those behind the scenes? Does having those folders there slow up the RAM operation in PS/LR? Sometimes I have PS, Bridge, LR and the Internet (for research) open at once.

And yes, I save as an 8 bit Tiff until I tag in Bridge, then save the jpeg to an upload folder and another jpeg back to the RAW folder.Then I delete the Tiff. The reason I save the Tiff, however temporarily, is that sometimes when I go back to tag it, I decide it’s a touch dark and use the Brightness adjustment in PS. I don’t want to do that on a jpeg. It doesn’t seem to hurt it enough for me to notice in an 8 bit instead of 16 bit Tiff. So Tiff it is until I know I’m totally happy with it.

Often, when I develop an image then don’t look at it until later when I’m ready to start tagging, I see it with fresh eyes and might make a change here and there.

I do think the blackouts (crashes?) were caused from overheating, and the tech guy who cleaned it thought so, too. But that's just a guess and why I went ahead and placed an order. So far, since the cleaning, everything is back to normal.
I’m just not sure what all of the duties of Mr. RAM is.
Let’s not discuss PSD. 😂 or I might get PTSD.

 

 

I was referring to the internal hard drive on your Mac but I think it is better to move forward than trying to figure out what was wrong with something that is fixed unless it happens again which is unlikely. 

 

In addition to what Mark says, it can be easier to understand what RAM is by analogy and there are loads of analogies about RAM. My favourite which should be understandable to anyone with a digital camera is that RAM is very like the buffer in your camera. If you shoot a sequence of images, the buffer fills up and you have to wait until it writes the files off to the memory card (equivalent to a solid state hard drive) before you can take any more shots. If you never shoot a burst of images then try it and you will see what I mean. Hard drives (SSDs and HDDs) are for long term storage whereas RAM is used for temporary storage of data while you are working on it. Michael Ventura posted a cookery analogy.

 

Sidebar: I wasn't suggesting a major change to your workflow. The reason I mentioned PSD files is that they are faster than TIFFs to work with in Photoshop and you were having problems saving TIFFs although this has been resolved it seems. I meant that instead of using TIFFs then save the files as PSD instead.  Wherever the word TIFF occurs in your workflow then replace with PSD. Like lossless TIFFs, PSD files are completely lossless so don't cause any loss of data when working on them and then resaving. it is the native Photoshop file format. Now erase that information lest it cause PtSD and lead to a TIFF.

 

Enjoy your new computer when it arrives. 😀

 

[M.Chapman]

9 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

I save as an 8 bit Tiff until I tag in Bridge,

 

Even if you don't swap to a PSD file, I suggest changing to using 16 bits. Especially because;

 

1) You say you delete them later anway, so the extra space consumed isn't an issue

2) On a new iMac with SSD the loading and saving time of 16 bit files will still be really fast

3) You say you sometimes go back to a TIFF and alter levels/exposure/etc.. Saving in 8 bit and then adjusting levels (highlights and shadows in particular) risks banding in skies or extra noise in shadows.

 

PS. I'm assuming you're processing RAW files so you have more than 8 bit fidelity in the image data you're starting with.

 

Mark

Edited April 23, 2021 by M.Chapman

[Betty LaRue]

Thanks, guys. I understand more. But neither of you clearly answered my question do the folders on my desktop directly affect the RAM? Are those folders, even though they aren’t open, using RAM? Or is the RAM only being engaged by what I actually have open, such as Internet, PS, Bridge and LR? 
I await enlightenment.

[MDM]

 

11 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

Thanks, guys. I understand more. But neither of you clearly answered my question do the folders on my desktop directly affect the RAM? Are those folders, even though they aren’t open, using RAM? Or is the RAM only being engaged by what I actually have open, such as Internet, PS, Bridge and LR? 
I await enlightenment.

 

No they don't affect the RAM unless they are open in a program. RAM is only used by programs that are actually running such as Photoshop etc. With Photoshop the more files you have open the more RAM is being used.

 

With my camera analogy, images that are already on the card (like images on your desktop or anywhere else on the hard drive) don't affect the buffer (the RAM)

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by MDM

[Betty LaRue]

Just now, MDM said:

 

 

No they don't unless they are open in a program. As you say RAM is only used by programs that are actually running such as Photoshop etc. With Photoshop the more files you have open the more RAM is being used.

 

With my camera analogy, images that are already on the card (like images on your desktop or anywhere else on the hard drive) don't affect the buffer (the RAM)

 

 

Ahhh, thank you. I can put that niggling concern aside now, once and for all.

[CAROL SAUNDERS]

7 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

 

I like my wireless Apple keyboard, but my Magic mice (I and II) gave me RSI, so I sold them. As another example of aesthetics overuling ergonomics, who decided it was best to have to turn the Magic Mouse II upside down to charge it, making it unusable whilst charging? I use an old Dell Bluetooth mouse that doesn't need a USB receiver. The only problem with that is that it doesn't connect if I boot my Mac in Recovery Mode, so I have to keep a mouse with USB receiver or cable around.

 

Mark

Just catching up on this thread, I love my wireless keyboard and Magic Mouse but do agree with it not being great turning the mouse upside down to charge it.  However, I find it very rarely needs a good charge or could be me forgetting to do it.  So much better than the battery mouse, that one used to drive me nuts, somehow or other the cover always used to slip off so for me this it's brilliant, but yes the charging port would have been better on the side maybe😉

 

Carol

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

Or is the RAM only being engaged by what I actually have open, such as Internet, PS, Bridge and LR? 

Predominantly yes. But the MacOS also uses quite a bit. If you want to get some insight then run the system app called Activity Monitor.app, click on the memory tab and then click on the memory column title to sort into order. More info is here https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/activity-monitor/actmntr1004/mac

There's even a graph that shows memory uasge. I wouldn't suggest using this app routinely as it can be quite confusing. But, if you experience sudden slowdowns it can often give an insight into why. It's often because free RAM has run out. Activity monitor allows you to spot which Apps maybe hogging memory. I find PS is sometimes slow to release memory when images are closed and it can be useful to occasionally quit PS and then reopen.

 

Mark

 

[MDM]

9 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

Predominantly yes. But the MacOS also uses quite a bit. If you want to get some insight then run the system app called Activity Monitor.app, click on the memory tab and then click on the memory column title to sort into order. More info is here https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/activity-monitor/actmntr1004/mac

There's even a graph that shows memory uasge. I wouldn't suggest using this app routinely as it can be quite confusing. But, if you experience sudden slowdowns it can often give an insight into why. It's often because free RAM has run out. Activity monitor allows you to spot which Apps maybe hogging memory. I find PS is sometimes slow to release memory when images are closed and it can be useful to occasionally quit PS and then reopen.

 

Mark

 

 

I was waiting for someone to say that but I think that is making it way too complicated. Betty wants a simple answer to her question: do the folders on my desktop directly affect the RAM? Are those folders, even though they aren’t open, using RAM? 

 

The amount of system memory used by having unopened image files on the desktop is negligible.  In any case, with 32 GB of RAM she is very unlikely to need to use a system memory monitor. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by MDM

[MDM]

(BAIT warning) Mark - you could always spend a nice evening testing out whether having image folders on your desktop uses system memory. (/ BAIT warning)

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, MDM said:

(BAIT warning) Mark - you could always spend a nice evening testing out whether having image folders on your desktop uses system memory. (/ BAIT warning)

Mmmm tastes interesting... chomp chomp.

 

On 18-02-2021 MacWorld said the following here https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/speed-up-slow-mac-3636548/

 

Every file on your desktop is a window with an image in it - either an icon or a preview of the file. Each of those windows and their contents is stored in RAM so that when you switch to the Desktop or use QuickLook, your Mac can show you what's in the window.

In other words, the more files you have on your desktop, the more data is stored in RAM. That could result in your Mac running more slowly, especially if your Mac's memory is already under pressure.

 

But I'm not sure I believe that. I often leave all sorts of junk (including big PSD files) on my desktop and have never seen a problem. So I agree with you the effect is pretty negligible and I won't be investigating further.

 

Mmmm... maybe the bait is just not tasty enough this time. 🙂

 

With respect to running out of resources - A Photoshop mistake I've made more than once, that brings my 32GB system to a screaming halt, is to forget I've left resize units set to centimetres instead of pixels and then hit resize to 3000 x 2000 with resample on. Ouch! Not sure if its RAM or the Processor that gets maxed out. But it's pretty catastophic.

 

Mark

Edited April 23, 2021 by M.Chapman

[spacecadet]

I don't think folders per se take up much RAM. Opened images, much.

I find LR takes up a lot when rendering previews and processing and is loath to give it up when it's finished. But then I still have LR5.7  and 6 GB.

 

[Colin Woods]

32 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

I've left resize units set to centimetres instead of pixels and then hit resize to 3000 x 2400

But you do get a nice big print when its done!