kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I shoot and submit all of my images to Alamy in color. Recently I've been processing some of those same color images into grayscale. I can't find anything in the submission guidelines about submitting both a color version and a grayscale version of the same image. Is there a submission rule about this? Is this something the buyer would do if they bought a color image and actually wanted something black and white - would they just buy the color image and then re-process it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Ashmore Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I occasionally (more frequently) submit a black and white copy of an image alongside a colour version. My understanding is that generally speaking, black and white images don't sell as well as colour images but I kinda figured 'what the helll'. Sometimes the black and white image just looks better though. And an image has to look good enough as a thumbnail for the buyer to want to pick it out, zoom it and hopefully buy it. So it's a bit of an experiment on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 If I think an image looks particularly good in black and white, I will sometimes upload both the colour and B&W versions. There is no rule against it. I imagine that some buyers would just reprocess the colour version if they wanted to run it in B&W. However, others probably don't know how to do this or can't be bothered. Recently, someone zoomed both the colour and B&W versions of one of my images. That said, I've never licensed a B&W shot on Alamy. The fairly new personal use and POD wall print options (or whatever it's called) might open some doors for B&W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK, so I wouldn't be damaging my reputation with Alamy if I did this. (I hate getting yelled at I took a bunch of photos last fall at the ghost town of Bodie and some of them just look good or better in black and white. I've already uploaded the colored ones. I don't imagine they would sell well, but it's nice to have the option. When I studied photography, back in the analog days, I only shot in black and white. I kinda miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bell Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Uploading both a colour and black & white version may harm your click through rate, if that's even relevant any more (I don't know if it is or isn't). Maybe having a separate pseudonym for just black & white images would be an idea? Just a suggestion. Geoff. And leave that pseudo open to PU purchases. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thank you - didn't even consider a Pseudo for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks for the thought, GS- that pseudo is going to have a killer CTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 I haven't been able to create a pseudonym. Can't find instructions on how to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 I will try that! (And, Yep!) Yes - that worked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Uploading both a colour and black & white version may harm your click through rate, if that's even relevant any more (I don't know if it is or isn't). Maybe having a separate pseudonym for just black & white images would be an idea? Just a suggestion. Geoff. Not sure if creating a separate pseudo for b&w is a good idea because it would probably cause the colour and b&w versions to show up on different pages of search results. This might be a disadvantage if the buyer wants to compare the two versions (colour and b&w). Also, having the same image credited to two different names might be confusing to buyers. Just a couple of random thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK, one more question! In Photoshop I have a choice of turning my color images into grayscale (which leaves some color in the image although to the naked eye is looks B&W) or eliminating the color from the image altogether. Are both of those option considered to be B&W? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Ashmore Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Uploading both a colour and black & white version may harm your click through rate, if that's even relevant any more (I don't know if it is or isn't). Maybe having a separate pseudonym for just black & white images would be an idea? Just a suggestion. Geoff. Not sure if creating a separate pseudo for b&w is a good idea because it would probably cause the colour and b&w versions to show up on different pages of search results. I'm willing to bet that they probably do anyway... rarely do my images show up net to each other. I've created a new B&W pseudo for my handful of B&W images. i hadn't thought of this so thank you for the suggestion guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks Geoff! I'm in Photoshop and when in RAW editing mode there is an option to tick a box marked grayscale. I just noticed that the color sliders don't go all the way down to the left, they go about three quarters to the left, leaving a little bit of each color. I just didn't know if a grayscale image would qualify as a B&W image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Uploading both a colour and black & white version may harm your click through rate, if that's even relevant any more (I don't know if it is or isn't). Maybe having a separate pseudonym for just black & white images would be an idea? Just a suggestion. Geoff. Not sure if creating a separate pseudo for b&w is a good idea because it would probably cause the colour and b&w versions to show up on different pages of search results. I'm willing to bet that they probably do anyway... rarely do my images show up net to each other. I've created a new B&W pseudo for my handful of B&W images. i hadn't thought of this so thank you for the suggestion guys. Usually not side-by-side, but I find that the colour and b&w versions (same pseudo) often show up on the same page of search results. I'm not sure that this would happen if the pseudos were different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDM Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks Geoff! I'm in Photoshop and when in RAW editing mode there is an option to tick a box marked grayscale. I just noticed that the color sliders don't go all the way down to the left, they go about three quarters to the left, leaving a little bit of each color. I just didn't know if a grayscale image would qualify as a B&W image. You mean in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) - I was confused reading that. There is no colour left in the image when you open it - these sliders determine how the conversion to monochrome occurs. For example, if you have blue sky in the colour version, you can get really dark skies by pulling the blue to the left. In ye olde days, one used to have to use a red filter to darken blue skies like this. Or you can get infrared type effects by lightening yellow and green. Always do the conversion in 16-bit for mono, especially for images with blue sky and add some noise reduction. Actually there are loads of ways to do mono conversions. I prefer to do them at the raw stage like you are doing. However, if you are working on a colour and mono version, then it is often best to open into Photoshop (16-bit), do the work such as spotting and then as the last stage add a BW adjustment layer and slide your sliders to taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty LaRue Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I've done B&W in Nik Color Efex 4 (free by the way) and there is a B&W conversion that gives about 4 options. And you can tweak the one you choose. I like the Nik conversion better than anything I can do. Betty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Ugh. Lightroom is a PITA. Photoshop is so easy to use. I also know that's a can of worms. People usually like whichever one they learned first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks MDM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Ugh. Lightroom is a PITA. Photoshop is so easy to use. I also know that's a can of worms. People usually like whichever one they learned first. Lightroom is different, and at first I couldn't work it out. There's no save button? Crazy! Where's the open option? How do I "save as" to create jpgs? Yep, it's a different way of working than most of us are used to. I love it now though. It just takes getting used to but it doesn't take long and once you've worked it out, it's very fast and easy to use, and saves a lot of time. All IMHO of course! Geoff. Yes, those are my exact issues! When I tried to use it all I could say was, "WTF?" For a long time I literally didn't have the time to learn a new processing software - maybe I'll have more time now after I process these fall and winter images I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDM Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Ugh. Lightroom is a PITA. Photoshop is so easy to use. I also know that's a can of worms. People usually like whichever one they learned first. Actually I disagree . I used ACR with Bridge and Photoshop for years but then I tried Lightroom and Photoshop and that is way better for many reasons that one might only really understand by trying that combo. The raw converter in Lightroom is identical to that in ACR but the user interface is much better in Lighthroom. And that is only one part of Lightroom. Well worth investgating I think. But I still need Photoshop too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I use Nik Silver Effex for black and white, have done for years. It's a filter for both LR and PS. It's been available free from Google for a few years. Really great control, you can emulate your favorite films from analog days, gorgeous results. I often use Analog Pro as well - it's a bit of a gamble but each change starts a new layer, so it's easy to undo. I love my digital darkroom. Get it! https://www.google.com/nikcollection/ I show (and sell) my black and white fine art images in galleries so certainly won't put those on Alamy for PU, but I might upload some more prosaic black and whites that sell for me on that unnamed art site. I get much more there, but Alamy has a different audience, so it may be worthwhile. Still a bit reluctant to let someone make a print for only $20. Hate to compete with myself. Something to think about. For those of you who sell prints on that unnamed site, what are your thoughts? Wish PU was $50, still low but since they're making their own prints, I could live with that. Hope I'm not hijacking the thread by asking this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK. I may have done myself in on this one. This is something I always forget to check before submitting images, but for some reason I was paying attention today. In looking at the image size of the B&W images I'm making, by stripping out all of the color, they are way under Alamy's lowest size of 17m. My greyscale conversions are coming out to be only 7m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crellin Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK. I may have done myself in on this one. This is something I always forget to check before submitting images, but for some reason I was paying attention today. In looking at the image size of the B&W images I'm making, by stripping out all of the color, they are way under Alamy's lowest size of 17m. My greyscale conversions are coming out to be only 7m. Going by memory I think Alamy guidelines specify all images must be submitted as 8 bit colour - not actually "grayscale" files. So, for instance in Photoshop for my occasional B&W submissions I select "grayscale" mode discarding the colour then convert back to "RGB color" for Alamy submission - which restores the file size. John Crellin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimba Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK. I may have done myself in on this one. This is something I always forget to check before submitting images, but for some reason I was paying attention today. In looking at the image size of the B&W images I'm making, by stripping out all of the color, they are way under Alamy's lowest size of 17m. My greyscale conversions are coming out to be only 7m. Going by memory I think Alamy guidelines specify all images must be submitted as 8 bit colour - not actually "grayscale" files. So, for instance in Photoshop for my occasional B&W submissions I select "grayscale" mode discarding the colour then convert back to "RGB color" for Alamy submission - which restores the file size. John Crellin Omg! So easy! It was a final step that I missed/forgot about/didn't know! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDM Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 OK. I may have done myself in on this one. This is something I always forget to check before submitting images, but for some reason I was paying attention today. In looking at the image size of the B&W images I'm making, by stripping out all of the color, they are way under Alamy's lowest size of 17m. My greyscale conversions are coming out to be only 7m. Going by memory I think Alamy guidelines specify all images must be submitted as 8 bit colour - not actually "grayscale" files. So, for instance in Photoshop for my occasional B&W submissions I select "grayscale" mode discarding the colour then convert back to "RGB color" for Alamy submission - which restores the file size. John Crellin Omg! So easy! It was a final step that I missed/forgot about/didn't know! Thank you! STOP. LISTEN. EMERGENCY. Forgive my bluntness but you are doing this all wrong. You are throwing away most of your data in ACR when you are converting to grayscale in ACR and opening as a single channel grayscale file in Photoshop. You are obviously opening it into a Gray Gamma Color Space. This is the default in ACR when you hit the Convert to Grayscale tickbox. Effectively you are throwing away a huge amount of data and then adding back three identical channels at the end if you do what John says. This is not good practice at all. What you should be doing is opening the file into an RGB color space - AdobeRGB is a good one. You do this in ACR by clicking on the link at the bottom of the screen which will probably say something like Gray Gamma 2.2 16 bit bla bla. Click on this and then in the dialog box that opens up, choose AdobeRGB for your color space. You should also choose 16 bit for your conversion. Do all your Photoshop work and then at the end convert it to 8 bit if you want to save disk space. I tend to save mine as PSDs with any layers and then export the JPEGS from Lightroom. The important thing is to keep the file as RGB the whole time. You would see this clearly if you used any of the split toning in ACR. It has to be RGB as it is a coloured monochrome. If you used Lightroom, this wouldn't happen as you automatically open in an RGB color space if editing in Photoshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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