please help find SoLD area(s) of this image

[M.Chapman]

59 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

OP image vs. redo OP image below (rubbery face vs. enough detail now or not?)

Manual NR lowered from 90-50-0 to 70-40-0-40-40-40

& added grain-size-roughness 5-50-50

if willing to advise:

a. no significant change, will fail QC

b. moderate change, will still fail QC because:

c. could pass QC because:

I'd say b. The new image has a better balance between noise reduction whilst retaining detail. But… I’d still be very wary that it would fail Alamy QC because it’s still noisy and lacks a bit of detail. Downsizing to 3000 x 2000 helps some more and, if and only if it was a unique and highly saleable image, I might risk submitting to QC, but I’d still be nervous of a fail.

 

Would you be prepared to upload the RAW version so some kind could could use Adobe Denoise on it and post the result?

 

Mark

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

14 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

I'd say b.

Thanks, mate!  Improvement is what I seek!

Maybe a portion of DNG at some point...?
 

"it is really pointless making generalisations..."

on specific slider numbers, probably;

on which sliders & slider directions, not IMO;

see my OP & OP redo images;

criticisms about OP image included "lack of hair detail";

LOOK AT OP REDO !!
dramatic increase in hair detail of 2 close-by women;

how? discovered (1) secret sauce...

secret sauce is a recipe

I just found one ingredient !!

significant reduction in Contrast sliders (for DNG & for TIF)

I MAY BE...

ON.

MY.

WAY ??!

[M.Chapman]

52 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

Thanks, mate!  Improvement is what I seek!

Maybe a portion of DNG at some point...?
 

"it is really pointless making generalisations..."

on specific slider numbers, probably;

on which sliders & slider directions, not IMO;

see my OP & OP redo images;

criticisms about OP image included "lack of hair detail";

LOOK AT OP REDO !!
dramatic increase in hair detail of 2 close-by women;

how? discovered (1) secret sauce...

secret sauce is a recipe

I just found one ingredient !!

significant reduction in Contrast sliders (for DNG & for TIF)

I MAY BE...

ON.

MY.

WAY ??!

Why not post the RAW file and then others can see what they can achieve with standard ACR sliders (not the New Denoise) and post their preferred settings? They could also post the Adobe Denoise result so the difference (if any) is clear.

 

Mark

 

Mark

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

5 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

Would you be prepared to upload the RAW version

as requested, DNG crop;

note: as a time compromise

I don't mask or paint images;

I use sliders & a few tools...

cropped DNG has my latest settings;

I may need to change manual NR

to 80-40-0-40-40-40 as way to get

(from 70-40-0-40-40-40)

rid of 2-tone blotches on walls...

 

https://photosphotos.net/MX231124029crop.DNG

 

thanks in advance, regards jg

[M.Chapman]

Adobe Denoise gives a ‘unknown error’ when I try to process the cropped DNG on my old Intel Macbook Air (I’m travelling ATM). Hopefully others will have more success, I’ll try just using ‘normal' sliders this evening.

 

Mark 

Edited March 21 by M.Chapman

[spacecadet]

13 hours ago, MDM said:

 

My hit rate handheld at those shutter speeds is very low when I've tested it out with IBIS on but it depends a lot on the camera used. 

My stabilisation packed up years ago, reason unknown. Just for once I hadn't dropped it😉 So it's jamming myself up a handy pillar or a coat on top of a bollard for me.

If it helps OP, on high ISO images I usually abandon all the usual adjustments, except NR. Then I might drop the shadows a bit if they're still grainy noisy.

My high ISO shadows are usually a bit magenta but I don't bother with curves; buyers don't seem to mind.

Edited March 21 by spacecadet

[MDM]

13 hours ago, spacecadet said:

My stabilisation packed up years ago, reason unknown. Just for once I hadn't dropped it😉 So it's jamming myself up a handy pillar or a coat on top of a bollard for me.

If it helps OP, on high ISO images I usually abandon all the usual adjustments, except NR. Then I might drop the shadows a bit if they're still grainy noisy.

My high ISO shadows are usually a bit magenta but I don't bother with curves; buyers don't seem to mind.

 

My stabilisation is still working (I think) and so is my camera's.

 

I woke up in the middle of the night, had a look in the forum and saw Jeff's new avatar. I couldn't unsee it and it took me ages to get back to sleep. I never want to see that again in fact.  I'm going to leave this thread now, perhaps never to return. 😎

 

14 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

Adobe Denoise gives a ‘unknown error’ when I try to process the cropped DNG on my old Intel Macbook Air (I’m travelling ATM). Hopefully others will have more success, I’ll try just using ‘normal' sliders this evening.

 

Mark 

 

It's a waste of time. I've not bothered dowloading and won't be doing so. Denoise will only work on the original raw images from camera (or so I thought apparently incorrectly).

Edited March 21 by MDM

[Ognyan Yosifov]

4 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

My stabilisation is still working (I think) and so is my camera's.

 

I woke up in the middle of the night, had a look in the forum and saw Jeff's new avatar. I couldn't unsee it and it took me ages to get back to sleep. I never want to see that again in fact.  I'm going to leave this thread now, perhaps never to return. 😎

 

 

It's a waste of time. I've not bothered dowloading and won't be doing so. Denoise will only work on the original raw images from camera.

I've taken advantage of the option of ignoring some stuff on the forum...Useful!

Edited March 21 by Ognyan Yosifov

[M.Chapman]

34 minutes ago, MDM said:

It’s a waste of time. I've not bothered dowloading and won't be doing so. Denoise will only work on the original raw images from camera.

It does try, preview looks OK, then after waiting a few mins to process it fails. Could just be my old steam powered MacBook Air.

 

Mark

Edited March 21 by M.Chapman

[Rebecca Ore]

9 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

as requested, DNG crop;

note: as a time compromise

I don't mask or paint images;

I use sliders & a few tools...

cropped DNG has my latest settings;

I may need to change manual NR

to 80-40-0-40-40-40 as way to get

(from 70-40-0-40-40-40)

rid of 2-tone blotches on walls...

 

https://photosphotos.net/MX231124029crop.DNG

 

thanks in advance, regards jg

 

3 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

Adobe Denoise gives a ‘unknown error’ when I try to process the cropped DNG on my old Intel Macbook Air (I’m travelling ATM). Hopefully others will have more success, I’ll try just using ‘normal' sliders this evening.

 

Mark 

 

It was noisy at 100%.   The only way to save noisy high iso photos  in my admittedly limited experience is to run Denoise  in Lightroom Classic., as opposed to Troll Classic 

 

When the solution to my noisy photos has been Denoise in Lightroom Classic, I'm not going to bother proving it by Denoising someone else's problem for free.   It's the answers others have given.   Some of us may not have  over 100,000 photos up on Alamy,  but have had job experience with computers, graphics programs, and having to update computers to match current programs or find open source work a-rounds for older computers (Net BSD kept an older Sparc running).

 

Competence in one area doesn't mean competence in another area even if that area provides your tools. 

[wiskerke]

2 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

It does try, preview looks OK, then after waiting a few mins to process it fails. Could just be my old steam powered MacBook Air.

 

Mark

Try going back to default settings first.

For me this worked. It reverts to full size as well.

Everybody is right, the new Denoise is incredible in this case. I used it at 50%.

However I did have to make more tweaks than usual to Optics and had to paint out some very persistent fringes in the end. But that is because of this specific lens and it's baked in profile.

I also set the color profile to Adobe Color and dialed the saturation and vibrance back 4 points. I set the color by hand too. In the end I used the healing brush to eliminate some flaws that could have been (or seen as) artifacts from the De-noise AI.

As always with files from these tiny sensors it's not a 5 minute job, let alone a batch process one-size-fits-all. Not for Alamy or any other client anyway. But that Denoise AI shaves off half an hour masking sharpening and whatnot.

 

Sorry no pic - I seem to have lost the ability to share full size files from Dropbox or Flickr without inviting the rest of the world.

 

wim

[KitJames]

I feel the only options to save the image from the noise is using a newer computer and optionally with different denoise software. Or on a slightly extreme note, a larger sensor camera for environments that aren't so brightly lit, so the workflow wouldn't be affected much. But then again both are costly fixes.

 

When I had Photolab on my older system, DeepPRIME wasn't enabled, so I ended up with a newer computer (second hand) that had the bare minimum to use it. Using DeepPRIMEXD actually improved majority of my images, removing noise and aiding the lens imperfections, but only via RAW not JPEG/DNG.

 

I tried your DNG in Affinity Photo, but it wasn't worth showing what I ended up with after an attempted rescue.

[geogphotos]

As Jeff commented - but it seems to have been lost in the hubbub - his 'other place' will accept files such as this for Editorial ( and much 'worse' than this) . Photographers upload editorial images direct from the camera and that is how they are offered to willing buyers, faults and all.

 

It does seem that Alamy has created this post-processing mindset that every image has to be tweaked to near perfection. I also contribute to this other place and have never ever been picked up for CA, SOLD, or the other QC sins that we have been taught to live by here. All that the editing concentrates on is whether the subject matter is saleable.

 

And when somebody asks for help it really is not a great deal of use to just reply that the person needs a new computer, new camera, better software. They are asking for help now with what they have right now. 

 

There is no obligation to answer questions that irritate you.

 

Sometimes I feel that some replies are largely performative. 

Edited March 21 by geogphotos

[M.Chapman]

6 hours ago, MDM said:

Denoise will only work on the original raw images from camera.

 

3 hours ago, wiskerke said:

Try going back to default settings first.

For me this worked. It reverts to full size as well.

Thanks Wim. OK that worked. I reset the settings to default, applied Adobe Denoise at 50% and cropped to match JG's crop. Result is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L2hyfHZNLxVamZI9DP_ApL6bq2Y1MXfM/view?usp=share_link

Pretty impressive.

 

Mark

Edited March 21 by M.Chapman

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

20 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

can't delay AI Denoise forever but IMO during this "infancy" period,

new laptop GPU offerings in Fall 2024 may be worth wait...?

For example, this announced today:
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/21/24107513/microsoft-ai-pc-surface-pro-10-laptop-6-specs-release-date-price

can it handle PS AI Denoise?  is it now one of the best PCs offered?

[MDM]

 

3 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

For example, this announced today:
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/21/24107513/microsoft-ai-pc-surface-pro-10-laptop-6-specs-release-date-price

can it handle PS AI Denoise?  is it now one of the best PCs offered?

 

I can't help with Windows computers but that looks like an announcement for the year rather than anything specific. I think you really would be best to get advice on a forum where people are really knowledgeable about what is required for a modern Windows machine to run modern Adobe software. The Adobe Forum might be your best bet or maybe DPReview. If you get an answer here, it is most likely to be of the my favourite brand type rather than a specific machine. I could of course tell you all about Macs, almost all of which will run what you need, but you have made it clear you are not interested in Macs. 

 

For what it's worth, for those who appear to be of the opinion that Jeff was being pushed to buy a new computer, he was actually asking about new computers versus upgrading graphics cards with Adobe Denoise in mind as far back as last September. The conclusion then as now was don't upgrade, buy new.

 

Fact 1: Adobe Denoise is vastly superior to any manual noise reduction

Fact 2: If one wants to use Adobe Denoise, one needs the hardware 

 

Why would anyone suggest to keep plugging away with manual noise reduction when the benefits of Denoise are so great, moreover when the person being advised actually has an Adobe subscription? 

 

A couple of links below backing this up should anyone doubt it. And there are more threads as well. 

 

https://discussion.alamy.com/topic/17077-photoshop-2024-incompatible-graphics-processor-solution/

https://discussion.alamy.com/topic/17107-how-fast-the-new-photoshop-denoise/

Edited March 21 by MDM

[Alexander Hogg]

This is what I use and it's a Windows 11 version  

Omen 15eK0xxx

Device name    LAPTOP-RQV50KG1
Processor    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10750H CPU @ 2.60GHz   2.59 GHz
Installed RAM    16.0 GB (15.8 GB usable)
Device ID    6D704188-09BB-4C4E-9201-E7127BBAAC68
Product ID    00325-81807-36025-AAOEM
System type    64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch    No pen or touch input is available for this display

 

Edition    Windows 11 Home
Version    23H2
Installed on    ‎12/‎12/‎2022
OS build    22631.3296
Experience    Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22687.1000.0
Edit It is a good machine but probably a newer machine will be faster than what I have now 

Edited March 21 by Alexander Hogg
Extra info

[KitJames]

3 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

can it handle PS AI Denoise?  is it now one of the best PCs offered?

I looked into the graphics those Surface Pros use, and discovered posts on other community boards about Intel ARC graphics cards struggling with the AI Denoise, stripping colour to RAWs and the exposure dropping, but was patched in a later driver. So, it means it could, but reliability with Intel ARC graphics might be a problem.

 

From a reliability standpoint I don't feel it's the best choice those Surface Pros. When you do photos and all, reliability's a must here. My current laptop has a Quadro RTX 3000, from 2019 and technically compatible with Lightroom AI Denoise and is quite reliable.

 

I'm not sure if it is worth investigating, but B&H Photo Video seems to have an Asus Vivobook 16X which is almost up to date and has an RTX 4060 that's guaranteed to work for photo processing with better graphics acceleration.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rebecca Ore]

1 hour ago, Alexander Hogg said:

This is what I use and it's a Windows 11 version  

Omen 15eK0xxx

Device name    LAPTOP-RQV50KG1
Processor    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10750H CPU @ 2.60GHz   2.59 GHz
Installed RAM    16.0 GB (15.8 GB usable)
Device ID    6D704188-09BB-4C4E-9201-E7127BBAAC68
Product ID    00325-81807-36025-AAOEM
System type    64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch    No pen or touch input is available for this display

 

Edition    Windows 11 Home
Version    23H2
Installed on    ‎12/‎12/‎2022
OS build    22631.3296
Experience    Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22687.1000.0
Edit It is a good machine but probably a newer machine will be faster than what I have now 

 

Similar to mine which has a slower CPU, but does have a separate graphic card with 4 GB Vram.  

 

The Denoise in Adobe is truly amazing.  One of their other enhance features, not so much. 

 

For those who can't afford the newest and greatest, a used machine that meets the minimum specs will work but might take minutes rather than seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

9 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

Result is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L2hyfHZNLxVamZI9DP_ApL6bq2Y1MXfM/view?usp=share_link

thanks for posting Photoshop Auto Denoise

so I could compare to my Photoshop Manual Denoise

(both are AI, both make decisions, right...?)

can you, or anyone, if willing & possible

point out a clear improvement vs my OP redo?
I zoomed into speaker's chin & neck & saw ?same?
grayish noise in both; the OOF face of woman

immediately to right of microphone seems same?

I looked at room wall & saw same "solidness"

I realize I gave you crop so challenge in finding

difference between images may be limited;

anyone -- please advise...

 

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

7 hours ago, MDM said:

A couple of links below backing this up should anyone doubt it.

For the record, there is no doubt, your advice has been invaluable;

at some point I will act on it eg, I shopped Lenovo today;

all your comments read & appreciated;

 

about Auto (AI) Denoise saving time:

time spent adjusting sliders per ISO batch minimal

when using my Manual (AI) Denoise;

in both cases I still burn, dodge, levels, color balance,

& all other manual ACR tweaks...

Manual Denoise uses AI aka program to make

pixel by pixel decisions, right?
There are other Auto AI possibilities:
Auto color-contrast-curve-whatever

I use none of them...

[M.Chapman]

6 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

thanks for posting Photoshop Auto Denoise

so I could compare to my Photoshop Manual Denoise

(both are AI, both make decisions, right...?)

can you, or anyone, if willing & possible

point out a clear improvement vs my OP redo?
I zoomed into speaker's chin & neck & saw ?same?
grayish noise in both; the OOF face of woman

immediately to right of microphone seems same?

I looked at room wall & saw same "solidness"

I realize I gave you crop so challenge in finding

difference between images may be limited;

anyone -- please advise...

 

It concerns me if you can’t see the difference between your

 

On 21/03/2024 at 02:15, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

https://photosphotos.net/MX231124029crop.DNG

 

and the Adobe Denoise version 

16 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L2hyfHZNLxVamZI9DP_ApL6bq2Y1MXfM/view?usp=share_link

To my eyes, on my screen the difference is huge. Ignoring the colour rendering and shadow highlight adjustments you made I’m just looking at how detail is rendered and noise is controlled. Take a look at the speaker’s hair above her brow at 100% size. In the Adobe denoise you can see the individual hairs, in your version they are blurry and much less distinct. Note also how much better controlled the noise is on the wall behind her head.

 

If you can’t see the difference then maybe we should check a couple of things.

 

1) Download this image https://drive.google.com/file/d/15HJIV5OqAZhoMDEX9zZaARKYnjlYm3d3/view?usp=share_link and open in PS and view at 100% from your normal screen viewing distance, with glasses if you use them. Do you see two uniform grey squares? Or do you see the left square is made of vertical stripes and the right square is made of horizontal stripes? If you can’t see the stripes, zoom in to 200% or 400% to reveal them. If the stripes are not visible to you at 100% (or 200% if using a retina display) then there’s a problem, either with your setup or your eyesight.

 

2) A good way to compare the de-noised images is by loading both as aligned layers in PS and then toggling the top layer on and off. I’m not sure if you know how to do this, so I saved my Photoshop psd file with the layers already loaded and aligned. You can download it here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1epTndPFQEuycgNOQW8dVCG92q0OvVRTq/view?usp=share_link and open in PS at 100%. Turn on the layers pallet (Top menu - Window>Layers tick or try pressing f7 key). Now you should see two layers named in the pallet. Your denoise version is the top layer, Adobe’s is underneath. To swap between them (by turning top layer visibility on and off) left click the little eye symbol next to the layer.

 

Finally you mention that your “AI” and Adobe’s AI are both AI right? Not in this case. In your “AI" you are simply adjusting the sliders, but in Adobe’s Denoise AI it’s something totally different, more like digital reconstructive surgery. For example Adobe's AI model has been trained to know what hair looks like and what hair with noise looks like. When it finds hair with noise it can recognise what is noise and what is hair and can remove the noise and/or “reconstruct” the hair. It’s been trained on millions of images with and without noise so it can apply the unique “corrections" based on what it recognises in each area of the image. That’s why it needs such a large amount of processing power. You’ll never get the same result using “global sliders”. 

 

Mark  

 

 

Edited March 22 by M.Chapman

[Steve F]

17 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

For example, this announced today:
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/21/24107513/microsoft-ai-pc-surface-pro-10-laptop-6-specs-release-date-price

can it handle PS AI Denoise?  is it now one of the best PCs offered?

 

Hi Jeff, best Windows laptops for photo editing, there's various comparison websites, e.g.: 

https://www.rtings.com/laptop/reviews/best/by-usage/photo-editing

 

I personally recommend the Dell XPS15 (on my 2nd one, very happy with it). They are quite customisable, so if you do go Dell, probably worth asking for some advice on the forum, as well as doing your own research.

Edited March 22 by Steve F

[MDM]

8 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

thanks for posting Photoshop Auto Denoise

so I could compare to my Photoshop Manual Denoise

(both are AI, both make decisions, right...?)

can you, or anyone, if willing & possible

point out a clear improvement vs my OP redo?
I zoomed into speaker's chin & neck & saw ?same?
grayish noise in both; the OOF face of woman

immediately to right of microphone seems same?

I looked at room wall & saw same "solidness"

I realize I gave you crop so challenge in finding

difference between images may be limited;

anyone -- please advise...

 

 

As Mark says, the differences are enormous. I think you must be looking at something different to what Mark is looking at. Even without my reading glasses on a small laptop screen, the differences are clearly evident between the original (seen by simply resetting the DNG crop version to default), your JPEG version at the top of this post and the Denoise version. You can't be looking at the same thing. Look at the PSD that Mark has posted and click on and off between the layers. Another way is to open all versions in Photoshop and hit Window - Arrange - Tile All Vertically so you can see them side by side. 

 

The Denoise version is not perfect as there is still some noise but downsizing to 3000x2000 would probably allow it to pass QC. 

 

[spacecadet]

A spectacular difference. Pun possibly intended. I got new specs some years ago shortly after going RAW after a bad QC spell. Both helped.

I would probably be able to go to 6400 if I could use Denoise.

Edited March 22 by spacecadet