rethinking / going from extreme tagging to moderate

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

if tagging was on scale from 1 to 10

1 being primary obvious tags, 10 being primary-secondary-tertiary & beyond;

the latter types nurse their collection, thinking weeding & replanting tags reaps rewards;

the former stick with obvious & get on with adding new variety...

as a volume shooter that finds tagging to be time-consumption bottleneck,

am contemplating backing off the "tertiary" & beyond keywords so new images

go to work quicker -- its a balancing act regardless...

 

comments appreciated,

(other than: me don't understand whoo whoo too complicated waah waah)

💤__ 💤__ 💤

Edited June 25, 2023 by Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg

[geogphotos]

The same dilemma and no easy answer. 

 

It would help to answer the question if we knew more about the power of captions and if there was no real need to add the same and more keywords below.

 

For me I think most times the searcher just wants to know the place/subject rather than + something specific in that place and only that place. 

 

LIke you I am thinking that I spend too much effort on this but also find it hard not to add keywords below the line if I can think of them.

 

My natural inclination is to think in terms of places but clearly a lot of searchers don't care less about locations and want the subject/object.

 

In your case with your pictures of people maybe it is the human emotions that only really matter and the location not so much?

Edited June 25, 2023 by geogphotos

[Rebecca Ore]

Captions, then enough keywords to get the orange bar, then think about it and add what seems appropriate. 

[Brian Yarvin]

10 hours ago, geogphotos said:

My natural inclination is to think in terms of places but clearly a lot of searchers don't care less about locations and want the subject/object.

 

In your case with your pictures of people maybe it is the human emotions that only really matter and the location not so much?

 

Ian and Jeff, I see this place business as the biggest mistake most stock photographers make. It's all about everything. That beautiful photo of a pasture in Cornwall could be used to illustrate Cornwall, but it can also be agriculture, grasses, livestock feeding, rural issues, or even something more broad "pasture use in the UK" or even just "pasture."

 

The opposite is true too. My photos of foods - mostly shot in my kitchens in New York, New Jersey, or Pennsylvania. (over the years as I moved from one place to another, not all at once.) have been used to illustrate cultures and countries on every continent. 

[Steve F]

My keywording on a recent shot of terraced housing which licensed. Pretty sure it didn't sell for the location.

 

England housing, housing market, mortgage market, mortgage affordability, mortgage rates, property prices, rental market, terraced housing, mortgage deals, buy to let, UK mortgages, Worting Road, basingstoke, rate rise, remortgaging, uk, Victorian terracing, interest rate, house prices rising, house prices falling

[geogphotos]

Brian, But where does it end? There are many types of pasture, different varieties of pasture grasses, many types of cattle, and different forms of cattle farming. To you and me it might look just like 'cows grazing in a field in Cornwall' but to a  farmer, researcher for farming book,  there is much more than that to say. 

 

This is the issue. How much research and time can be justified straying into areas beyond our own knowledge?

 

For your image even without any research it could easily be:

 

"Uk, United Kingdom, Britain, British, England, English, Cornwall, Cornish, West Country, field, fields, cattle, cow, cows, herd, dairy, heifer, heifers, calf, calves, pasture, pastures, graze, grazing, rye grass, grass, farm, farming, farmland, livestock, animal, animals, husbandry, agriculture, agricultural, land, land use, land-use, valley, flat land, hillside, undulating, landscape, scenery, scenic, pastoral, summer, sunshine, sunny, sunny weather, picturesque, blue sky, tree, trees, stream, no people, nobody, country, countryside, rural, rural area, food, feed, fodder, food production, intensive, green, fresh, outdoor, outdoors, outside, etc etc"

 

Or just keep it brief and have time to do more pics....?

Edited June 26, 2023 by geogphotos

[gvallee]

26 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

Brian, But where does it end? There are many types of pasture, different varieties of pasture grasses, many types of cattle, and different forms of cattle farming. To you and me it might look just like 'cows grazing in a field in Cornwall' but to a  farmer, researcher for farming book,  there is much more than that to say. 

 

This is the issue. How much research and time can be justified straying into areas beyond our own knowledge?

 

For your image even without any research it could easily be:

 

"Uk, United Kingdom, Britain, British, England, English, Cornwall, Cornish, West Country, field, fields, cattle, cow, cows, herd, dairy, heifer, heifers, calf, calves, pasture, pastures, graze, grazing, rye grass, grass, farm, farming, farmland, livestock, animal, animals, husbandry, agriculture, agricultural, land, land use, land-use, valley, flat land, hillside, undulating, landscape, scenery, scenic, pastoral, summer, sunshine, sunny, sunny weather, picturesque, blue sky, tree, trees, stream, no people, nobody, country, countryside, rural, rural area, food, feed, fodder, food production, intensive, green, fresh, outdoor, outdoors, outside, etc etc"

 

Or just keep it brief and have time to do more pics....?

 

As discussed before, 'no people' is a no go. Searches for 'people' will pick up 'no people'. Consensus is to use 'nobody'.

 

[geogphotos]

11 minutes ago, gvallee said:

 

As discussed before, 'no people' is a no go. Searches for 'people' will pick up 'no people'. Consensus is to use 'nobody'.

 

 

Fair enough. I don't tend to use either. The above was just an example. 

 

Just to see I did a search of 'no people' and it does produce pictures without people.

Edited June 26, 2023 by geogphotos

[Brian Yarvin]

The more I look at keywords, the more they seem like poems about photos. 

 

Where does it end? Hopefully with keywords that tell a story similar to the story the photo itself tells.

[geogphotos]

5 minutes ago, Brian Yarvin said:

The more I look at keywords, the more they seem like poems about photos. 

 

Where does it end? Hopefully with keywords that tell a story similar to the story the photo itself tells.

 

 

I keep having the intention of slimming down keywords but that is easier said than done 🤔

[Steve F]

2 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

 

I keep having the intention of slimming down keywords but that is easier said than done 🤔

 

Is it affecting your CTR?

yes I know it's difficult to know 🙈

[geogphotos]

42 minutes ago, Steve F said:

 

Is it affecting your CTR?

yes I know it's difficult to know 🙈

 

 

I don't really monitor CTR.  Too complicated, so many variables. I just do the captions and kewords to the best of my ability and hope for the best.

[Michael Ventura]

27 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

 

I don't really monitor CTR.  Too complicated, so many variables. I just do the captions and kewords to the best of my ability and hope for the best.

 

Same.  I just put in all relevant keywords, be it few or many.  That has seemed to serve me well over the years

[geogphotos]

56 minutes ago, Michael Ventura said:

 

Same.  I just put in all relevant keywords, be it few or many.  That has seemed to serve me well over the years

 

 

I think that is what Jeff is considering. The balance. There are the obvious and essential keywords and then ones that are less so and you as you keep going it can get towards those which are more obscure and less likely to be actually used.

 

There is clearly no overall answer and as you say we just have to make the best judgement we can as we go along. Having said that I am facing 500 or so pics all processed and ready to go. I would like to be able to get through them quickly and efficiently rather than put in a super-human effort to cover every single possible keyword variation. 

 

Slimmed down keywording might on one hand mean some loss of sales but equally cut out a lot of false negatives and produce higher ranking/more sales. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by geogphotos

[Betty LaRue]

Ed uses sparse tags & seems to do well.
🏆 to you, Ed.

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

8 hours ago, Brian Yarvin said:

it can also be agriculture, grasses, livestock feeding, rural issues...

don't know specific photo being commented

but this grass need is what you just imagined

but what is real?  how often?

vs. simply "Cornwall pasture scene"

non-scientific grass searchers

could search pasture-pastures which IMO

could be primary tag in scene...

 

IMO the "greater number of tags" fever is

indirectly proportional to one's number of

images in one's collection; those with under,

say, 20K images don't know what its like

handling over 100K varied images...

 

remember, if volume-variety shooters find

extra time on their hands with no new images

to process, they can always add tags to

existing images...

 

it is actually my other agency which is influencing

decision to back down on extreme tagging,

they DON'T extreme tag & processing of my

selections by them was slowing...

Edited June 26, 2023 by Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg

[Brian Yarvin]

Jeff, for most people, the problem isn't to many or too few, it's that they're putting up the wrong words. The obsession with the label "travel" is throwing them off.

[John Mitchell]

5 hours ago, Michael Ventura said:

 

Same.  I just put in all relevant keywords, be it few or many.  That has seemed to serve me well over the years

 

 I also try to think of how the image might be used and by whom when adding keywords. I actually enjoy the tagging game (well, most of the time), plus I'm not in a rush, no fantasies about getting rich either. If I can maintain my current income level -- it pays a couple of bills every month -- for a few more years in this wacky business, I'll be OK with that.

[geogphotos]

On 25/06/2023 at 21:53, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

if tagging was on scale from 1 to 10

1 being primary obvious tags, 10 being primary-secondary-tertiary & beyond;

the latter types nurse their collection, thinking weeding & replanting tags reaps rewards;

the former stick with obvious & get on with adding new variety...

as a volume shooter that finds tagging to be time-consumption bottleneck,

am contemplating backing off the "tertiary" & beyond keywords so new images

go to work quicker -- its a balancing act regardless...

 

comments appreciated,

(other than: me don't understand whoo whoo too complicated waah waah)

💤__ 💤__ 💤

 

 

I wonder if it would be a good opportunity to completely rethink your approach to metadata and try something new - especially as you state that you are having some issues or delays submitting at the 'other place'.

 

I'm not suggesting that I have it all under control but I do find the batch key-wording system offered by Photoshelter incredibly useful. I then can send direct agencies to from my Photoshelter account.

 

I create batch folders for the same sort of images - so, for example, you could drag all your restaurant interiors into a folder and add all the relevant keywords at once, then split that batch into location folders and add those details to what you have already done. It is a bit hard to explain but with a little practice works relatively smoothly. 

 

Maybe it would be worth a free trial using some of your new images? 

Edited June 27, 2023 by geogphotos

[M.Chapman]

I must admit I find tagging, captioning and categorising using AIM to be much more tedious than at other sites I submit to. The precision clicking required to select supertags and to complete the otional tab items really takes time. The current importance of using phrases on Alamy adds another layer of complexity. If I was starting all over again today, I'd probably submit fewer images by being more ruthless during editing and concentrate on using phrases even more. Quantity without quality is very inefficient. However, if Alamy swap to an AI based search engine, the ground rules might change completely.

 

Mark

[Betty LaRue]

On 27/06/2023 at 07:09, geogphotos said:

 

 

I wonder if it would be a good opportunity to completely rethink your approach to metadata and try something new - especially as you state that you are having some issues or delays submitting at the 'other place'.

 

I'm not suggesting that I have it all under control but I do find the batch key-wording system offered by Photoshelter incredibly useful. I then can send direct agencies to from my Photoshelter account.

 

I create batch folders for the same sort of images - so, for example, you could drag all your restaurant interiors into a folder and add all the relevant keywords at once, then split that batch into location folders and add those details to what you have already done. It is a bit hard to explain but with a little practice works relatively smoothly. 

 

Maybe it would be worth a free trial using some of your new images? 

I basically do the same in Bridge by making templates. Highlight all photos of a particular subject & apply the template. Then quickly add ones individual to that image, delete any that don’t apply.

[zxzoomy]

Sometimes, as an extra, I use chatgpt to suggest 50 tags and use the few which seem good. My brain gets weary and chatgpt can think at a tangent. The danger with too many is a lower ctr, I think. I recall advice from here not to put the dictionary in.

[PatsyCollins]

I focus (ha ha) on the specifics first and add enough to get the picture on sale and then, when I have time, go back and add more general keywords. But then I mainly photograph flowers. There are millions of flower photos on this site, so words like flower, bloom, plant etc are extremely unlikely to bring up my photos. On the other hand there are some where if you enter the full species and variety name, mine are on the first page, or even the only example. If someone happens to make that search, I have a good chance of a sale.

[geogphotos]

15 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

I must admit I find tagging, captioning and categorising using AIM to be much more tedious than at other sites I submit to. The precision clicking required to select supertags and to complete the otional tab items really takes time. The current importance of using phrases on Alamy adds another layer of complexity. If I was starting all over again today, I'd probably submit fewer images by being more ruthless during editing and concentrate on using phrases even more. Quantity without quality is very inefficient. However, if Alamy swap to an AI based search engine, the ground rules might change completely.

 

Mark

 

 

Mark, Could you please explain what you mean by 'the current importance of using phrases on Alamy'?

 

Thanks

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, geogphotos said:

 

 

Mark, Could you please explain what you mean by 'the current importance of using phrases on Alamy'?

 

Thanks

Previous testing has shown that if a customer search uses 2 words, images with those 2 words in single tag (i.e. a phrase) appear higher in search results than those with the each word in a separate tags. The effect can be dramatic. I should perhaps be careful about using the word "current" as Alamy can and do change the search algorithm from time to time. But it's easy to test.

 

So, with 350 Million images in competition the "game" is trying to think of 2 word (or even 3 word) phases the customer might use, so that my image appears on Page 1, (but AoA can help with that). Is it really worth the time and effort versus uploading more images instead? Who knows? But then that's the topic of this thread... 

 

Mark

Edited June 30, 2023 by M.Chapman