KODAKovic Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 ..again, i'm sorry! I apologise for debating this again and again but i was looking at your ports, people who confirm daily in "slow month" or "post your positive results" or "which is your <month>---something" they're good sellers. For the following categories i've noticed some of you use RM, some RF (maybe Editorial) and i really couldn't find a reason to stay relaxed on that or to say to my mind "now i' see the light!!!" - Food - Landscapes without people or brands - Wildlife / Animals - Not branded objects How could you explain the RM vs RF usage then? Technically and legally speaking, each of the above category pictures could go in the RF market, but.... many uses RM (as i do). Which are your thoughts? Thanks in advance to share these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Hi Kodak, I took this from another thread: I wrote the following which I'll stick to with, in my opinion, 1-4 having an equal weight of 25% each. Quote I believe that RM should be reserved for only the most premium of images, with the more generic images being RF. What is 'premium", in my opinion?: 1. Images which took considerable expense or time to capture and/or post-process; 2. Unique lighting condition; 3. Unique editorial of a 'story' which isn't sufficiently covered by other contributors; 4. Niche images (medical, science, biology, chemistry); 5. Model and property released images to me are automatically considered 'premium' Hope that helps, it was highly debated at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, Brasilnut said: Hi Kodak, I took this from another thread: I wrote the following which I'll stick to with, in my opinion, 1-4 having an equal weight of 25% each. Hope that helps, it was highly debated at the time Love "KODAK" alias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 All my RF sales, of which there aren't many, tend to be for peanuts so I'm not encouraged to go down that route unless I have several similar and very generic images which are nothing special. Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 hours ago, Pearl said: All my RF sales, of which there aren't many, tend to be for peanuts so I'm not encouraged to go down that route unless I have several similar and very generic images which are nothing special. Pearl +1 2.1% of my images are RF at the moment - I dont intend to change that anytime soon Kumar (the Doc one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Quote As I pointed out to Brazilnut it would take considerable time and expense for me to produce pics of Brazil but it wouldn't if I lived there! I would qualify that statement to mean images which include but are not limited to the following: - High altitude expeditions (think Andes, Himalayas) - Deep desert - North or South pole expeditions - Extreme jungle - Deep caves - Underwater tropical - Interstellar Of the above I've only really done 2 which would qualify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 I think many here uses RF when: - there are no licensed people - there are no visible brands - subject is not location-based (like generic food, not "italian typical food" for i.e.) - subject is a detail and is generic (see the point above). A knife for i.e. or a glass of water on a beach In the example above (glass of water on a beach) if i blur the background it will be RF, while if i use a small aperture (F8) and on the background i see a Brasil typical beach it will be RM, right? Am i wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MircoV Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 minute ago, KODAKovic said: I think many here uses RF when: - there are no licensed people - there are no visible brands - subject is not location-based (like generic food, not "italian typical food" for i.e.) - subject is a detail and is generic (see the point above). A knife for i.e. or a glass of water on a beach Am i wrong? Hi, You are not wrong... here on Alamy i think most indeed use, if RF, then for that however RF can be also used for unreleased editorial images with logos and people. It is a difficult question to answer. I have several RF sales for 150+ dollars. You could always test it yourself and place a group of photos as RF (commercial and editorial) and see how it goes with zooms and sales. Mirco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 RF editorial is only a few months old on here and I guess most people are still getting used to it. Nevertheless, Alamy seems to have made things rather confusing by mixing up RM/RF with commercial/editorial. Put RM and no need to mention its editorial usage when there's identifiable people/places? They need to sort out this mess they've created or explain it in a clearer way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 12 minutes ago, MircoV said: I have several RF sales for 150+ dollars. Welcome back Mirco Do you mean on the old port or new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MircoV Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 minute ago, KODAKovic said: Welcome back Mirco Do you mean on the old port or new one? I guess for the next period i will only talk about my old port . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Brasilnut said: I would qualify that statement to mean images which include but are not limited to the following: - High altitude expeditions (think Andes, Himalayas) - Deep desert - North or South pole expeditions - Extreme jungle - Deep caves - Underwater tropical - Interstellar Of the above I've only really done 2 which would qualify I agree with the fact the more difficult an image is to be captured the more RM it should be. This is in-line with what Geog said about "one-time" use of RM images. I believe in their mind the thinking was: "anyone could produce a tomato shot in white background, let's call it RF (micro pricing dropping for this kind of shots), while in the opposite a few could go to a nordic vulcano or in deep jungles and sell these images because they're much more specific than the tomato shots and much less on demand by buyers so allow what's-so-call-RM to be high prices-one shot". Basically, Alamy can't sell a tomato shot for 100$ (or a glass of water on a generic beach) : it's simply out of the market. But it can sell a deep jungle shot for 250$. The good news for us is we are all sorrounded by "difficult" subjects. For i.e. i'd like to publish a beautiful romanian church just 15km from my house which is completely NOT covered on any site. In this example, for me it's not difficult to take this shot but this subject is very specific and not much photographers are thinking to it...result....i'd put it RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Lewis Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 13 hours ago, KODAKovic said: ..again, i'm sorry! I apologise for debating this again and again but i was looking at your ports, people who confirm daily in "slow month" or "post your positive results" or "which is your <month>---something" they're good sellers. For the following categories i've noticed some of you use RM, some RF (maybe Editorial) and i really couldn't find a reason to stay relaxed on that or to say to my mind "now i' see the light!!!" - Food - Landscapes without people or brands - Wildlife / Animals - Not branded objects How could you explain the RM vs RF usage then? Technically and legally speaking, each of the above category pictures could go in the RF market, but.... many uses RM (as i do). Which are your thoughts? Thanks in advance to share these. I'll add my 2¢ worth here. Back when I had my photography business everything I licensed was for a defined period, defined size, or defined production run (publications etc), in other words I licensed my images as "rights managed". Now, if someone wanted unlimited exclusive use, the fee was very, very high. I never licensed an image for unlimited exclusive use though. Most clients understood they would probably not want to use the image past a certain time frame or for other unspecified uses. Wikipedia defines it thus: " Rights Managed, or RM, in photography and the stock photo industry, refers to a copyright license which, if purchased by a user, allows the one-time use of the photo as specified by the license. If the user wants to use the photo for other uses an additional license needs to be purchased." My understanding of royalty free is; unlimited use in any media or all media for a flat fee. The fact that an image may be licensed for editorial use only, in my mind, really doesn't factor into this. One can license a royalty free image for editorial use only. To me, all of this is rather moot. One of my sales this year was sold thus: Country: WorldwideUsage: EditorialMedia: Television (editorial)Print run: Unlimited transmissionsPlacement: Use within body of showStart: 20 September 2017Duration: In perpetuity All rights, all media in context, in perpetuity including in context promos It sold for $125. Now, I have several different image licensing programs and one of the best quotes over $1,200 for a one year license. So, in essence the buyer received a royalty free license, (unlimited use, worldwide, in perpetuity, all media). For a single fee, on my own, I probably would have charged a couple thousand dollars, in a good market, but alas, I fear those times are lost. My point, to me it really doesn't matter what you choose, but for principle, I choose RM. ;-) Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rick Lewis said: I'll add my 2¢ worth here. Back when I had my photography business everything I licensed was for a defined period, defined size, or defined production run (publications etc), in other words I licensed my images as "rights managed". Now, if someone wanted unlimited exclusive use, the fee was very, very high. I never licensed an image for unlimited exclusive use though. Most clients understood they would probably not want to use the image past a certain time frame or for other unspecified uses. Wikipedia defines it thus: " Rights Managed, or RM, in photography and the stock photo industry, refers to a copyright license which, if purchased by a user, allows the one-time use of the photo as specified by the license. If the user wants to use the photo for other uses an additional license needs to be purchased." My understanding of royalty free is; unlimited use in any media or all media for a flat fee. The fact that an image may be licensed for editorial use only, in my mind, really doesn't factor into this. One can license a royalty free image for editorial use only. To me, all of this is rather moot. One of my sales this year was sold thus: Country: WorldwideUsage: EditorialMedia: Television (editorial)Print run: Unlimited transmissionsPlacement: Use within body of showStart: 20 September 2017Duration: In perpetuity All rights, all media in context, in perpetuity including in context promos It sold for $125. Now, I have several different image licensing programs and one of the best quotes over $1,200 for a one year license. So, in essence the buyer received a royalty free license, (unlimited use, worldwide, in perpetuity, all media). For a single fee, on my own, I probably would have charged a couple thousand dollars, in a good market, but alas, I fear those times are lost. My point, to me it really doesn't matter what you choose, but for principle, I choose RM. ;-) Rick Alamy says that their clients prefer RF. Evidence of that is tough to come by, though. I'm sticking with RM for the most part. At least we get some usage details. Also, I have yet to license an RF image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Lewis Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, John Mitchell said: Alamy says that their clients prefer RF. Evidence of that is tough to come by, though. I'm sticking with RM for the most part. At least we get some usage details. Also, I have yet to license an RF image. I think Alamy is right. Most buyers, of course would want to license RF. I think @Bill Brooks covered that brilliantly in a previous post. If I were a buyer I would want to purchase RF as well. To be honest, how can you blame them. It certainly is to their advantage. I'm just glad Alamy is still around. I think they are doing a very good job in an extremely challenging business. My hope is the industry comes to its senses and sees the benefit of rewarding good photography and good photographers. Probably fleeting dream though. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 hours ago, Rick Lewis said: I'll add my 2¢ worth here. Back when I had my photography business everything I licensed was for a defined period, defined size, or defined production run (publications etc), in other words I licensed my images as "rights managed". Now, if someone wanted unlimited exclusive use, the fee was very, very high. I never licensed an image for unlimited exclusive use though. Most clients understood they would probably not want to use the image past a certain time frame or for other unspecified uses. Wikipedia defines it thus: " Rights Managed, or RM, in photography and the stock photo industry, refers to a copyright license which, if purchased by a user, allows the one-time use of the photo as specified by the license. If the user wants to use the photo for other uses an additional license needs to be purchased." My understanding of royalty free is; unlimited use in any media or all media for a flat fee. The fact that an image may be licensed for editorial use only, in my mind, really doesn't factor into this. One can license a royalty free image for editorial use only. To me, all of this is rather moot. One of my sales this year was sold thus: Country: WorldwideUsage: EditorialMedia: Television (editorial)Print run: Unlimited transmissionsPlacement: Use within body of showStart: 20 September 2017Duration: In perpetuity All rights, all media in context, in perpetuity including in context promos It sold for $125. Now, I have several different image licensing programs and one of the best quotes over $1,200 for a one year license. So, in essence the buyer received a royalty free license, (unlimited use, worldwide, in perpetuity, all media). For a single fee, on my own, I probably would have charged a couple thousand dollars, in a good market, but alas, I fear those times are lost. My point, to me it really doesn't matter what you choose, but for principle, I choose RM. ;-) Rick Rick, this is EXACTLY my thought. I can make an exception with some studio shots which can be easily done by others, not for Editorial shots. The problem i'm facing now is video started from the beginning with RF-style fees, but this is out of this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 12 hours ago, geogphotos said: I dislike these sort of statements from Brasilnut that basically God has decided that everything except miracles must be RF. If that is what Brasilnut said, I think Brasilnut is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty LaRue Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/18/2017 at 14:20, KODAKovic said: Welcome back Mirco Do you mean on the old port or new one? Like one RF I just licensed, IQ $250. The highest of 8 sales. RM $11.74 RF $50.72 RM $80 RM $12.62 RM $119 RF $250 RM 50 RM $44.91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 6 hours ago, Betty LaRue said: Like one RF I just licensed, IQ $250. The highest of 8 sales. RM $11.74 RF $50.72 RM $80 RM $12.62 RM $119 RF $250 RM 50 RM $44.91 RF Editorial Betty or plain RF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Quote There is nothing as devout as a recent convert who has found the faith and true cause. I'm a born again stock photographer - hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilnut Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Quote I thought that you had been converted to RM editorial for Alamy and leaving RF micro behind. I guess you have lapsed a little Yes, 95% of my editorials will go on here and not duplicated on micros. About 50% of them will be RF or RM. Some are quite generic and don't merit RM imo but respect those who choose to only license RM. Frustrating though, since I haven't had any sales this month after an encouraging Sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 10 hours ago, Betty LaRue said: Like one RF I just licensed, IQ $250. The highest of 8 sales. RM $11.74 RF $50.72 RM $80 RM $12.62 RM $119 RF $250 RM 50 RM $44.91 Betty, just a question about your RF sales: do you think they could sell for cents on micro? I'm asking 'cause at the beginning of my Alamy experience i doubled my port on Alamy and some other micro agencies and i noticed some images have been downloaded for .25$ there and for 50$ here. I simply struggle nowadays with this customers behaviour: how is it possible to pay the same image 100 times more ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 What I really don't like about RF, apart from the unlimited use issues, is the £255.00 ceiling for the maximum size download. I have sold RM images for 4 figures which weren't particularly special or unique so why would I want to put a ceiling on potential sales? If a buyer wants an exclusive license, which may bring in a high fee, they would not choose RF. Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Pearl said: What I really don't like about RF, apart from the unlimited use issues, is the £255.00 ceiling for the maximum size download. I have sold RM images for 4 figures which weren't particularly special or unique so why would I want to put a ceiling on potential sales? If a buyer wants an exclusive license, which may bring in a high fee, they would not choose RF. Pearl I agree with you Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KODAKovic Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 26 minutes ago, Brasilnut said: Yes, 95% of my editorials will go on here and not duplicated on micros. About 50% of them will be RF or RM. Some are quite generic and don't merit RM imo but respect those who choose to only license RM. Frustrating though, since I haven't had any sales this month after an encouraging Sept. Feeling the same Nut, but have 2 zooms today... finger crossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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