Cryptoprocta Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 OK, the removal of many images at the behest of Network Rail has thrown this issue to the forefront. I'd like to know how other photographers get permission to photograph at places or events which are open to the public (with or without a ticket) but not on 'public property'. For example, there's an event I'm going to (and went to last year) which is indoors and outdoors, on private property not overlooked by any public streets etc. There is nothing on the tickets which forbids photography, and certainly I wandered around last year taking pics with my dSLR, and no-one batted an eyelid, and nothing forbidding selling photos, but I thought I probably shouldn't supply them to Alamy. So this year, I emailled the media office, as their online form had space where you had to specify which publication you were working for. I emailled thus: Hi, XXX ~I will be attending (event and dates)I am a freelance stock photographer with Alamy.This is my Alamy portfolio: .....I am not requesting any particular access or facilities, but I would likeconfirmation that I can sell photos taken at the event as secondaryeditorial.Thanks you for your assistance.... but have had no reply. How should I word my letters in the future - I've tried this approach before, and only got a reply once, but that was slightly different, as I pointed out that the particular event was on public ground (even though they were fencing an area off and charging admission) and she said it was OK to sell the images, but I couldn't get admission to the media tent (which I hadn't asked for). The only other place I got a reply to (they had already given me permission to take a tripod in and make over 100 images for another purpose) issued a flat refusal, as they want control over which publications carry their images, but said if I was ever thinking of submitting to specific publications, I should get back in touch with them. (There are almost 400 images, a random sample showing as 'unreleased', currently on Alamy. I forwarded the email they'd sent me sayting they wouldn't allow permission for stock photography to Alamy, but they chose not to delete these images.) So I'm really asking - how do you go about getting permission to shoot on private property which is open to the public / hosts public events? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert M Estall Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I expect that with where I am going with my photography I will be seeking permission or accreditation more than I have. I am moving into more documentary stories or news coverage. That will require me to ask for accreditation. The key to seeking permission is to understand what is in it for those giving access. Hence they want to know where the pictures will be used etc. It is not good enough that you want to, are an experienced photographer and will not get in the way. The organisers want you to show them how they will benefit, usually through publicity. They may also impose restriction on the use of the images; often editorial use only. Oh, and they might, probably will, want to see evidence of public liability insurance—I have £5million, I need that as I have worked trackside at motorsport events. Think about it, a red carpet type event may not seem high risk but if you trip up a Hollywood A-lister causing them to fall and break something the damages could be horrendous, especially if it impacts the current film they are shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. True, but nor does it necessarily give us rights to publish our photographs. There are all sorts of other factors that could come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. True, but nor does it necessarily give us rights to publish our photographs. There are all sorts of other factors that could come into play. What other factors? Copyright is a negative right- it enables you to prevent publication- so how could a landowner acquire rights to prevent publication of images lawfully obtained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. True, but nor does it necessarily give us rights to publish our photographs. There are all sorts of other factors that could come into play. What other factors? Copyright is a negative right- it enables you to prevent publication- so how could a landowner acquire rights to prevent publication of images lawfully obtained? If you have bought a ticket to an event or premises you are bound by the terms and conditions - ignorance is not a defence (tough if you didn't bother to check before driving 300 miles). So on a National Trust property you can only take pictures for personal, non-commercial, in the broadest sense, purposes. Same at sports, theatre and music events, often not even for personal use; the ban is often in the programme. There are "no photography" signs all around many museums for example. The owners are free to determine what the rules apply on their premises, at their event. It is not about copyright, it is about contracts. So it is not about lawful or not in the criminal sense, it is a civil matter between the photographer and the premises' owner or the event organiser. I am not saying I like it, agree or think it is reasonable. That is the civil law as well as custom and practice. As I have said I hate the creeping privatisation of public space and property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. True, but nor does it necessarily give us rights to publish our photographs. There are all sorts of other factors that could come into play. What other factors? Copyright is a negative right- it enables you to prevent publication- so how could a landowner acquire rights to prevent publication of images lawfully obtained? If you have bought a ticket to an event or premises you are bound by the terms and conditions - ignorance is not a defence (tough if you didn't bother to check before driving 300 miles). So on a National Trust property you can only take pictures for personal, non-commercial, in the broadest sense, purposes. Same at sports, theatre and music events, often not even for personal use; the ban is often in the programme. There are "no photography" signs all around many museums for example. The owners are free to determine what the rules apply on their premises, at their event. It is not about copyright, it is about contracts. So it is not about lawful or not in the criminal sense, it is a civil matter between the photographer and the premises' owner or the event organiser. We know all that. The OP stated "with or without a ticket". When there is no contract you can do what is lawful and owners are only "free" within the law. Even so, contract terms may be void as unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Perhaps we need the equivalent of the "Mass Trespass" (1932) on Kinder Scout that started the process of freeing up the country side, especially the wild spaces. It resulted in ramblers getting much improved rights to roam (within limits). Perhaps we should all converge, en masse, on a NT property somewhere with our cameras and flood the photo libraries (or the newspapers at £0.01p a time to ensure usage, all in a good cause) with the resulting images. And keep doing it every weekend until they or the libraries come to an accomodation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptoprocta Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Oh, and they might, probably will, want to see evidence of public liability insurance—I have £5million, I need that as I have worked trackside at motorsport events. Think about it, a red carpet type event may not seem high risk but if you trip up a Hollywood A-lister causing them to fall and break something the damages could be horrendous, especially if it impacts the current film they are shooting! I've been looking at public liability. I won't be near any Hollywood a-listers any more than if I happened to bump into one when going about my everyday life, viz highly unlikely. But on a quick look online, I can't find any pli which meets my needs. They ones I've checked out all assume a studio and full equipment, and models and assistants, whereas any liability I might have would be exactly the same as a keen amateur might have, viz accidentally stepping back onto someone's toes or similar. Still, this is really about getting no response at all, I'm not even at the stage of anyone requiring pli or wanting to know what they get out of it (they have a press liaison officer, and facilities for photographers from named publications). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Oh, and they might, probably will, want to see evidence of public liability insurance—I have £5million, I need that as I have worked trackside at motorsport events. Think about it, a red carpet type event may not seem high risk but if you trip up a Hollywood A-lister causing them to fall and break something the damages could be horrendous, especially if it impacts the current film they are shooting! I've been looking at public liability. I won't be near any Hollywood a-listers any more than if I happened to bump into one when going about my everyday life, viz highly unlikely. But on a quick look online, I can't find any pli which meets my needs. They ones I've checked out all assume a studio and full equipment, and models and assistants, whereas any liability I might have would be exactly the same as a keen amateur might have, viz accidentally stepping back onto someone's toes or similar. Still, this is really about getting no response at all, I'm not even at the stage of anyone requiring pli or wanting to know what they get out of it (they have a press liaison officer, and facilities for photographers from named publications). I got my PLI as part of my equipment insurance from Cliik. Didn't seem too expensive overall. It has satisfied motorsport media organisations for going trackside. I will have another check of the terms though in due course. I was very clear about the sort of purposes I needed it for. I think my comments about understanding why they should want you there is the key; you need to sell yourself. Doing that I have not had much of a problem getting a response. Need to be very professional in your approach and show that you understand the business side of things. In fact I have just reconfirmed my details with one such organisaation so that I will continue to get invited; just need to work out how I make money from their events so I can afford to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustydingo Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 most of us are adverse to sticking our necks in the lion's mouth. We wait until challenged or asked to desist. +1. In law you're in the clear until asked to stop. Then you become a trespasser if you don't, but it doesn't give them rights over any of your images. True, but nor does it necessarily give us rights to publish our photographs. There are all sorts of other factors that could come into play. What other factors? Copyright is a negative right- it enables you to prevent publication- so how could a landowner acquire rights to prevent publication of images lawfully obtained? If you have bought a ticket to an event or premises you are bound by the terms and conditions - ignorance is not a defence (tough if you didn't bother to check before driving 300 miles). So on a National Trust property you can only take pictures for personal, non-commercial, in the broadest sense, purposes. Same at sports, theatre and music events, often not even for personal use; the ban is often in the programme. There are "no photography" signs all around many museums for example. The owners are free to determine what the rules apply on their premises, at their event. It is not about copyright, it is about contracts. So it is not about lawful or not in the criminal sense, it is a civil matter between the photographer and the premises' owner or the event organiser. We know all that. The OP stated "with or without a ticket". When there is no contract you can do what is lawful and owners are only "free" within the law. Even so, contract terms may be void as unfair. I agree with Mark re: the contract terms may be void as unfair . . . it's easy to say anything in a terms and conditions document. I'm sure I've read that (at least in Aus) the terms of any contract regards theatre tickets and similar have to be clearly displayed at point of sale or point of entry (which does not mean hidden away in some t&c doc on a website) . . . but even so, are there many (any?) instances of photographers being taken to court because they licensed an image taken in and of a "restricted" venue? As for me, I never ask unless I know absolutely for certain the answer is going to be "yes", and even then the question would simply be "may I take photographs"--I'd never discuss their use. But if I'm asked to stop (especially if I've not hidden my camera adequately in a concert for example), I do. dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariaJ Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 In museums: Do the tour and take pictures (with the tiny Sony RX100) without drawing attention and out of sight of the attendants When finished, ask permission to take pictures When declined >> leave When allowed >> do the tour again in a more relaxed way, take more time to frame, place the camera with the tiny tripod on objects to shoot with selftimer to get razor sharp images Cheers, Philippe Hi Philippe, When you ask them permission to take photos, do you let them know the photos will be up for sale? I'm wondering because I have some museum photos as well, where they've said fine to taking photos, but I did not ask about selling them. Maria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nacke Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 I photographed events on assignment for major magazines for a day rate and space rate. I quickly figured out, 1980's, that I could make more money photographing an event, the right event, for my own agency and syndication (what we called "stock" in the good old days). I figured out that I could make a much better return on my time working on my own than a "day rate" from any publication. In my opinion the secret to photographing events is to "look like" you know what you are doing. Be dressed appropriately and not to argue with anyone. I do that everyday and it has workes for me. I always wear kaki pants, desert boots and an old classic bush jacket with a matching kaki Domke bag over my shoulder ( might be a U.S. thing) and nobody questions me. Depending on the event it can also help to have a 300 f2.8 over your sholder, In Moscow I used a 600 f4 and it impressed people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 In museums: Do the tour and take pictures (with the tiny Sony RX100) without drawing attention and out of sight of the attendants When finished, ask permission to take pictures When declined >> leave When allowed >> do the tour again in a more relaxed way, take more time to frame, place the camera with the tiny tripod on objects to shoot with selftimer to get razor sharp images Cheers, Philippe Hi Philippe, When you ask them permission to take photos, do you let them know the photos will be up for sale? I'm wondering because I have some museum photos as well, where they've said fine to taking photos, but I did not ask about selling them. Maria I don't mean to answer for Philippe, but IME offering images taken in most museums for editorial purposes is not a problem, assuming photography by visitors is allowed. Generally speaking, you only need to ask permission for intended commercial use. I make museum shots RM and state that property releases (don't got none) are needed for commercial use. Have never had any problems. I've actually had museums contact me wanting to use some of my photos taken on their premises. That said, I think Philippe has the right idea -- i.e. carry an inconspicuous camera and try to look like a happy holiday snapper. I also like his other suggestions. I follow a similar sneaky game plan. That tiny tripod can come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptoprocta Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 Wasn't there a blanket email from Alamy some time back telling us to remove ALL content taken within museums anywhere without explicit permission to sell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Getting a verbal OK is one thing, the person giving may or may not have the authority, and getting it in writing or an email may well be a another, very much bigger, challenge. "a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's printed on" as Sam Goldwynis misquoted as having said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickfly Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 OK, the removal of many images at the behest of Network Rail has thrown this issue to the forefront. I'd like to know how other photographers get permission to photograph at places or events which are open to the public (with or without a ticket) but not on 'public property'. For example, there's an event I'm going to (and went to last year) which is indoors and outdoors, on private property not overlooked by any public streets etc. There is nothing on the tickets which forbids photography, and certainly I wandered around last year taking pics with my dSLR, and no-one batted an eyelid, and nothing forbidding selling photos, but I thought I probably shouldn't supply them to Alamy. So this year, I emailled the media office, as their online form had space where you had to specify which publication you were working for. I emailled thus: Hi, XXX ~I will be attending (event and dates)I am a freelance stock photographer with Alamy.This is my Alamy portfolio: .....I am not requesting any particular access or facilities, but I would likeconfirmation that I can sell photos taken at the event as secondaryeditorial.Thanks you for your assistance.... but have had no reply. How should I word my letters in the future - I've tried this approach before, and only got a reply once, but that was slightly different, as I pointed out that the particular event was on public ground (even though they were fencing an area off and charging admission) and she said it was OK to sell the images, but I couldn't get admission to the media tent (which I hadn't asked for). The only other place I got a reply to (they had already given me permission to take a tripod in and make over 100 images for another purpose) issued a flat refusal, as they want control over which publications carry their images, but said if I was ever thinking of submitting to specific publications, I should get back in touch with them. (There are almost 400 images, a random sample showing as 'unreleased', currently on Alamy. I forwarded the email they'd sent me sayting they wouldn't allow permission for stock photography to Alamy, but they chose not to delete these images.) So I'm really asking - how do you go about getting permission to shoot on private property which is open to the public / hosts public events? Thanks If you feel the need to send the letter, I would change the word 'sell' to 'use'. "but I would like confirmation that I can use photos taken at the event as secondary editorial." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broad Norfolk Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 If there is no indication that photography is not allowed in any location, then I go ahead and do my work. Only once have I been confronted by a person stating that photography was not allowed. This was in a small local shopping arcade and I was so taken aback that it didn't cross my mind to challenge his authority! If he was genuine, then he didn't catch everyone because there are 271 images on sale here, all editorial with no property or model releases as far as I can see. On a more positive side, I will always ask permission to shoot if there is anybody in authority present at any location where needed. So far I've never been refused. I do a lot of church architecture work and on one occasion I walked into a local church with camera and tripod in hand. I was met inside the door by the Vicar and I immediately asked if it was all right to take pictures. The result was that he took me around the church and then asked if I needed any lighting to be switched on! This doesn't happen everyday, but just shows what can happen if you just politely ask. And I always leave a donation! Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Getting a verbal OK is one thing, the person giving may or may not have the authority, and getting it in writing or an email may well be a another, very much bigger, challenge. "a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's printed on" as Sam Goldwynis misquoted as having said. Interestingly enough, when my business card used to say "writer/photographer", I had better luck gaining written permission to photograph. I guess everyone knows that writers don't make any money. Little do they know that most photographers don't either these days. Also, because I was writing articles as well, it was obvious that the photos would be used editorially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 In museums: Do the tour and take pictures (with the tiny Sony RX100) without drawing attention and out of sight of the attendants When finished, ask permission to take pictures When declined >> leave When allowed >> do the tour again in a more relaxed way, take more time to frame, place the camera with the tiny tripod on objects to shoot with selftimer to get razor sharp images Cheers, Philippe Hi Philippe, When you ask them permission to take photos, do you let them know the photos will be up for sale? I'm wondering because I have some museum photos as well, where they've said fine to taking photos, but I did not ask about selling them. Maria Hi Maria, There are different scenarios. When it's clearly marked (and by clearly, I don't mean one of those little stickers, but explicitly SAID without asking, only to be visited with guide, camera security, special attendant and the whole shebang) that photography is banned - like the "Adoration of the Mystic Lamb" or the prehistoric caves I visited in the Argonne - I obviously don't take pictures and just enjoy the visit. When I only see one of those little "No Photography" stickers and notice that everyone is happily shooting with their pocket cameras and smartphones and that the attendants don't seem to care >>> I do what I described in my previous post. But when asking permission afterwards, I don't say I'll use the pictures in a professional way. Just ask "Is it allowed to take pictures?" When I REALLY need the pictures for a project in excellent quality >>> I call the museum on beforehand, make an appointment, explain what the purpose of the pictures will be and if permission is granted, show up with tripod and my heavy DSLR cameras and lenses. Beware: depending on the purpose of the shoot, you have a lot of chance permission will be denied because they have their own stock for press purposes. Little tip: depending on the country, especially little museums run by private (old) people can play difficult and can't have it you make money on their backs. They don't even understand that being published could mean extra publicity for their business. In that case I opt for the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach. Cheers, Philippe Another scenario is that in some countries, the process that you have to go through in order to get permission involves so much time and frustrating red tape that it isn`t worth bothering with, especially when it`s often more of a saving-face exercise anyway -- i.e. no really minds if you take photos (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). At least that has been my experience in many places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariaJ Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thanks for your thoughts and experience, Philippe and John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptoprocta Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 I got a reply back today and was told that I can sell photos of products and displays, but not any people at the event. I guess I won't bother, then, because the story is the people at the event, and I can't imagine the exhibitors are going to want me clogging up their frontage trying to get photos while avoiding all people in the background! Indeed, the lighting indoors where there are products and displays was very low, I was really hoping for permission to photograph the people outdoors interacting with each other etc. This was a recent blog post which we received an email about in December: http://tinyurl.com/gtoy5dt I wish it had contained more advice on actually going about approaching the appropriate people for permission rather than just saying we must do it. Some people must be better at getting permission than others, and I'm definitely one of the 'others'. To be honest, I'd far rather have something in writing about having been granted permission rather than just verbal consent - no proof down the line when personnel hav changed, but I don't think Alamy provides any pro-forma for that - or have I just not found it? (The email about removing all content from inside museums without explicit permission was sent 2 -3 years ago, and I don't seem to have kept it.) Clearly, I'll need to hone my email writing. Any more tips in that direction? TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 It's not in the gift of the organisers to say that you can photograph property but not people. No-one has an expectation of privacy at an event to which the public are admitted, even a paying public. If you have not been told that you may not take photographs of people, why not go ahead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptoprocta Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 There's no problem with taking pictures, I photographed constantly on the first day last year with my dSLR, and many others were taking photos on a variety of devices. It's not easy knowing exactly who is the right person anyway: someone senior from the (foreign) company who owns the premises or as I tried, the press rep of the company which is organising the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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