New 24Mp full-frame Nikon Zf mirrorless

[Harry Harrison]

30 minutes ago, MDM said:

Do they actually sell for that?

You can filter for 'sold' on ebay so it looks as if they do, certainly over £650. The mint and boxed ones are in Japan and they are over £1000.

[MDM]

16 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

You can filter for 'sold' on ebay so it looks as if they do, certainly over £650. The mint and boxed ones are in Japan and they are over £1000.

 

OK definitely tempting. I would need to run a roll of film through it to check it still works although I expect it does as there is not a lot can go wrong. It never got a lot of usage as I got it not long before I got my first DSLR (a Canon 20D ssssh). That would mean getting a battery as well so I could check the meter. It has a completely mechanical shutter that can work without a battery - wow it has been a long time. 

[Rebecca Ore]

5 hours ago, Mr Standfast said:

How about this for a retro; a twin lens reflex with medium format sensor, like Vivian Maiers Rolleiflex.

 

Oh, serious drooling.   I miss my Minolta Autocord sometimes, but 120/220 film and chemistry is hard to come by in Nicaragua.

[Betty LaRue]

My first SLR was a Nikon N90 that I shot for about 8 months using slides before going with a Nikon digital 6.1mp camera. So I had no long affinity with SLR cameras. Before that, a Canon SureShot film camera, but more of a point & shoot. It did take lovely pictures, though.

I fell in love with Fuji cameras because of the knobs & dials that made it simply extremely functional.  I gave no consideration to retro styling because I hadn’t shot those cameras before so the styling didn’t twang any heartstring. I can pick up the camera, turn a knob or dial & be taking the shot in seconds, not minutes.

The Sony RXs? I have them (2) set in a basic point & shoot style using RAW & never dive into the menu other than to reformat my card. And I sell the pictures taken that way.  I shot Nikon digitals, I think 5 of them, & was happy to leave the menus although I knew how to use them.
I will admit this, though. I bought Nikon because all of my life I heard the brand was the ultimate. Even novels I read, if anyone shot pictures, it was a Nikon. I was in love with and respected the name, not the form.

And no, I don’t buy “labeled” clothing or the uppity brands of cars. Seems it was Nikons that put stars in my eyes until the practicality of Fuji came along.

[Chuck Nacke]

I did recently attend a NIKON event and "played" with several of the Z series bodies.  I will say that from what I saw the image quality from the 8 and 9 was really amazing and the AF was spot on, BUT I would stop using a camera if I had to work with a digital (video) viewfinder.  I HATE it.  If I had the $ I would go back to LEICA M's.

 

I go back a long way with NIKON, my all-time favorite NIKON was my black SP, the F pre 1972 was a work horse.  The F4 was a wonderful camera most of the time and the N90s were great, still have three of them.  I am F mount and I love my D800's.  BUT I hate digital viewfinders and if it is not F mount, IT IS NOT A NIKON.

 

Chuck

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Chuck Nacke said:

I did recently attend a NIKON event and "played" with several of the Z series bodies.  I will say that from what I saw the image quality from the 8 and 9 was really amazing and the AF was spot on, BUT I would stop using a camera if I had to work with a digital (video) viewfinder.  I HATE it.  If I had the $ I would go back to LEICA M's.

 

I go back a long way with NIKON, my all-time favorite NIKON was my black SP, the F pre 1972 was a work horse.  The F4 was a wonderful camera most of the time and the N90s were great, still have three of them.  I am F mount and I love my D800's.  BUT I hate digital viewfinders and if it is not F mount, IT IS NOT A NIKON.

 

Chuck

If Nikon had not made the switch to mirrorless there would be no Nikon by now. Hybrid mirrorless cameras are what the market wants, hybrid in the sense of video and stills in the one body. Nikon were very late to the mirrorless hybrid market but they are now producing the very best hybrid cameras in the world. Now all they have to do is market and sell them. Nikon as a brand has been well behind Sony and Canon in the market, particularly the younger market, and Nikon needed to break that. Secondhand D800s that last forever are not going to keep Nikon in business. 
 

Thankfully the future is bright. There are so many amazing features of the Z system, not least the lenses which are in another world in comparison to their F-Mount equivalents - sharper, lighter, faster. The advanced video features of the Z8 and Z9 have Nikon at the forefront of hybrid video technology.
 

I could go on but not much point as I am not going to change anything. You are obviously stuck in older technology and happy with it so that is fine. Fortunately there should be an abundance of F-Mount lenses and Nikon DSLRs for many years to come. They are still making the D850, the best DSLR ever made in my opinion. But shouting about it in all caps and wishing Nikon had never changed is pointless. The new tech is here and Nikon is alive and kicking powerfully. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by MDM

[Betty LaRue]

22 minutes ago, MDM said:

If Nikon had not made the switch to mirrorless there would be no Nikon by now. Hybrid mirrorless cameras are what the market wants, hybrid in the sense of video and stills in the one body. Nikon were very late to the mirrorless hybrid market but they are now producing the very best hybrid cameras in the world. Now all they have to do is market and sell them. Nikon as a brand has been well behind Sony and Canon in the market, particularly the younger market, and Nikon needed to break that. Secondhand D800s that last forever are not going to keep Nikon in business. 
 

Thankfully the future is bright. There are so many amazing features of the Z system, not least the lenses which are in another world in comparison to their F-Mount equivalents - sharper, lighter, faster. The advanced video features of the Z8 and Z9 have Nikon at the forefront of hybrid video technology.
 

I could go on but not much point as I am not going to change anything. You are obviously stuck in older technology and happy with it so that is fine. Fortunately there should be an abundance of F-Mount lenses and Nikon DSLRs for many years to come. They are still making the D850, the best DSLR ever made in my opinion. But shouting about it in all caps and wishing Nikon had never changed is pointless. The new tech is here and Nikon is alive and kicking powerfully. 

 

 

Yes, if Nikon had introduced this new camera style years ago when Fuji did, I would have immediately jumped on it & not had to change complete systems. Buying all new lenses isn’t fun for the pocketbook, & it took me a while to get them, one by one.

At one point, I thought Nikon was on its way to being defunct because of their foot-dragging concerning mirrorless. Kudos that they finally woke up. I’m wondering if there was a change at the top to get a more progressive person at the helm. The problem they face now (IMO) is whether established photographers who bought into mirrorless years ago are willing to scrap their systems & go back to Nikon. Not a lot of us have deep pockets.

I for one, will not go through that again. Hopefully, the new market of younger people will be enough.

[Mark Scheuern]

I've used Nikons for decades but recently switched to Fuji, with an X-T5, which is amazing. If I were still shooting with Nikon this would be an instant buy for me. I'm a big fan of traditional controls, which is a reason I love the X-T5, and this looks quite good. 

[Harry Harrison]

Chuck has a point about the electronic viewfinder, that may not appeal to 'FM2' traditionalists and by all accounts it is the one from the Z6II which was mildly criticised by DPReview at the time that came out (December 2020) for not being up to speed with competitors' offerings. I'm not in the market anyway but they have had to fudge the aperture setting a little, it appears in a tiny LCD window on the top as many (all?) Nikon AF lenses don't have a manual aperture setting on the lens itself. Fuji of course have had aperture settings on most of their better lenses from the start. It seems that there is a possibility that Sigma will make their primes available for the Z fitting.

 

I'm curious about the 4 high resolution pixel shift modes. Pretty sure that means it can't have an anti-alias (low pass) filter which is unusual for a relatively low 24 MP full frame camera, it might be on its own in fact, the otherwise similar Z6II does have one. You might expect to get more detail but also moire. On the other hand a high res pixel shift mode would be excellent for 'camera scanning' medium format.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Harry Harrison

[MDM]

55 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Chuck has a point about the electronic viewfinder, that may not appeal to 'FM2' traditionalists and by all accounts it is the one from the Z6II which was mildly criticised by DPReview at the time that came out (December 2020) for not being up to speed with competitors' offerings. I'm not in the market anyway but they have had to fudge the aperture setting a little, it appears in a tiny LCD window on the top as many (all?) Nikon AF lenses don't have a manual aperture setting on the lens itself. Fuji of course have had aperture settings on most of their better lenses from the start. It seems that there is a possibility that Sigma will make their primes available for the Z fitting.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Chuck's hatred of electronic viewfinders is general and not specifically directed at any particular Nikon Z model. But you can't compare the original Z6 with even the current Z6 (same with the mark II) as Nikon introduced several firmware updates to address a lot of early issues, even relatively recent ones for the original Z6 and Z7. In fact the regular firmware updates in the Z system have become the norm and there have been some really important features introduced in firmware. Because of this, one needs to be careful that the reviews are current. The latest pro level cameras cannot be fairly compared with the originals either.  

 

I actually got the Z6 early in the pandemic to be able to shoot raw video with an external recorder. Nikon were actually the first to the table with this, followed by several others. I've hardly used it for stills at all - it has a shutter actuation count of less than 5,000.

 

The fact is electronic viewfinders are basically essential for hybrid mirrorless cameras. Personally I like an optical viewfinder for stills but I no longer have any DSLRs and it's not a problem at all.

 

The Z6 series have low pass filters and the Z7 series don't. I've been using cameras with no low pass filter for years ever since the D800E. I've seen moiré once I think in all that time when (actually after) a shooting wedding where the groom's suit had some very fine patterns. I managed to remove most in post to the point taht it was not noticable.

Edited September 21, 2023 by MDM

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Betty LaRue said:

Yes, if Nikon had introduced this new camera style years ago when Fuji did, I would have immediately jumped on it & not had to change complete systems. Buying all new lenses isn’t fun for the pocketbook, & it took me a while to get them, one by one.

At one point, I thought Nikon was on its way to being defunct because of their foot-dragging concerning mirrorless. Kudos that they finally woke up. I’m wondering if there was a change at the top to get a more progressive person at the helm. The problem they face now (IMO) is whether established photographers who bought into mirrorless years ago are willing to scrap their systems & go back to Nikon. Not a lot of us have deep pockets.

I for one, will not go through that again. Hopefully, the new market of younger people will be enough.

 

Yes I imagine they have quite a bit of ground to make up, especially with Sony. However, the latest flagship Nikon Z camera is about $1500 cheaper than the flagship Sony and is generally regarded as better in many ways, so the jumping ship has probably stopped now. Nikon brought out an adapter with the first Z7 which allows the use of many older F-Mount lenses with full AF etc so that is a big attraction if one has older lenses. Most of my older lenses work on the Z bodies. 

 

So yes as you say it is about attracting the younger market and this new Zf camera is bait. 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by MDM

[Harry Harrison]

11 minutes ago, MDM said:

Because of this, one needs to be careful that the reviews are current.

It was from DPReview's appraisal of the pre-production sample, "The Zf has a 3.68M dot EVF, which is not especially high by today's standards. Without the super-fast dedicated readout path that the Z8's sensor offers, it can't match the near-zero-lag experience that that camera does. Overall it's a pretty middling viewfinder experience but one definitely improved by the pretty good 0.8x magnification."

 

It will be far better than my X-T2's though, mine dates from 2016. I definitely prefer an optical viewfinder for catching people's expressions, or simply fast-moving changes in composition.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Harry Harrison

[Harry Harrison]

25 minutes ago, MDM said:

The Z6 series have low pass filters and the Z7 series don't.

My understanding is that it's fine to remove the low-pass filters from higher MP cameras like your D800E, D810, D850 etc. or 24MP APS-C cameras like my Fujis because I think the suppression of moire is associated with the pixel pitch but 24MP full frame might be unusual. In fact when the 16MP X-Pro1 came out and introduced the X-Trans sensor the main selling point of that and all subsequent X-Trans sensors was that the 6x6 X-Trans repeating pixel pattern meant that they wouldn't suffer from Moire despite not having the low pass filter. Certainly an extraordinarily successful marketing strategy.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Harry Harrison

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Harry Harrison said:

It was from DPReview's appraisal of the pre-production sample, "The Zf has a 3.68M dot EVF, which is not especially high by today's standards. Without the super-fast dedicated readout path that the Z8's sensor offers, it can't match the near-zero-lag experience that that camera does. Overall it's a pretty middling viewfinder experience but one definitely improved by the pretty good 0.8x magnification."

 

It will be far better than my X-T2's though, mine dates from 2016. I definitely prefer an optical viewfinder for catching people's expressions, or simply fast-moving changes in composition.

 

 

 

 

OK I thought you were talking about the Z6II not having an aperture readout in the viewfinder. Incidentally, modern Nikon lenses do not have an aperture dial on the lens itself but they have maintained backward compatibilty with lenses that have an aperture ring in the Z series through the adapter so the camera is communicating with the lens. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by MDM

[John Mitchell]

On 20/09/2023 at 10:45, M.Chapman said:

In general I I'd say I much prefer easy access clearly labelled knobs and dials over nested menus, 4 way controls and multi-function buttons with tiny labels. That being said I currently own a Lumix G100 and Sony RX100 Mk3, neither of which are good in that respect. Mmmm... maybe I need a new camera, or I just disproved my own argument.

 

Mark

 

I used to feel that way too, but now I've gotten used to menus and buttons. However, I seldom have to delve into menus because I tend to use basic settings (roughly the same ones I used in film days) and seldom have to make major changes. The Sony a6000 that I use nowadays actually has a good mix of dials and other labelled controls. The function buttons work well too. I also didn't like EVF's at first, but the modern ones are much more versatile than optical viewfinders IME. So much for nostalgia...

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by John Mitchell

[Mr Standfast]

My early concerns about EVF's were mitigated by a wide brimmed hat.

[Chuck Nacke]

I think you all missed my point, keep in mind that I was an active member of NPS (Nikon Professional Services) before some of you were born.  I will not use a camera with a EVF (Electronic View Finder)  I do not like them.  As per the F mount, there have been rumors for years about the limitations of the F mount.  Canon AF was always outperforming Nikon AF because Canon would change or modify their lens mount.  I used MF (Manual Focus) Canon bodies for many years and The Canon F1n was a great body, the T-90 was useful body and the FD Canon lenses were outstanding.  Of all of the 35mm cameras I've been fortunate to have used over the years my favorite is still the Leica M2.  It was a camera for "PHOTOGRAPHERS." 

 

Now everything I have written on this thread is my own opinion, based on my own preferences.  How I would like to work.  Now if you disagree, I will challenge any comers to see who can do the most forearm curls with an old NIKKOR 600 f4 ED..........

 

Chuck

[MDM]

10 hours ago, Mr Standfast said:

My early concerns about EVF's were mitigated by a wide brimmed hat.

My general concerns about all flavours of UV are mitigated by a wide brimmed hat. 

[Michael Ventura]

And if you have really deep pockets (like we all do, ha!) Nikon is coming out with a Z f/0.95 58mm Noct lens

Nikkor Z 58mm f/0.95 S Noct lens

[MDM]

36 minutes ago, Michael Ventura said:

And if you have really deep pockets (like we all do, ha!) Nikon is coming out with a Z f/0.95 58mm Noct lens

Nikkor Z 58mm f/0.95 S Noct lens

 

Now that is a niche lens for the rich and physically powerful - real men I guess 🤣. It weighs 2kg (4.4 lbs) so it could be used for weight training if someone wanted to take up Chuck's forearm curls challenge.. 

 

It's not brand new. Nikon released it a few years ago as one of the early Z mount lenses primarily I guess as a demonstration of what could be done with the new Z mount. I've never seen one myself but I believe they do exist.

Edited September 22, 2023 by MDM

[Michael Ventura]

Maybe they are re-branding it.  Got an email from Nikon today with this teaser video attached.

[MDM]

33 minutes ago, Michael Ventura said:

Maybe they are re-branding it.  Got an email from Nikon today with this teaser video attached.

 

It's got them guessing in the comments below the video whatever it is. 

[Mr Standfast]

10 hours ago, MDM said:

My general concerns about all flavours of UV are mitigated by a wide brimmed hat. 

 

 

Tilley Endurable?

[MDM]

2 hours ago, Mr Standfast said:

 

 

Tilley Endurable?

 

Definitely Tilley as in my avatar pic. I have a collection in various conditions. 🤠

[Gervais Montacute]

I like the Nikons best and will stick with a D800 and the 2.8 zoom holy trinity. I also like the Fuji X100 (Mk 1) and will most likely get the newest version when it comes out next year.