Do you find that LR Classic has difficulty handling large RAW files, especially when using new features such as masking, etc. while Photoshop ACR does not? How can I improve LR Classic's behavior?

[Marianne]

I'm finding a there's a big difference between processing large RAW files*  when using the new masking tools in PS ACR vs. LR Classic although ostensibly they are the same. *(specifically 61 & 42MP Sony ARW compressed RAW files) I'm also having other weird issues in LR Classic. Advice urgently needed. Here are the issues:

 

           1.    In LR Classic, where I do most of my work, LR is much more likely to crash or take an inordinate amount of time when I'm working with masks, especially if I'm using the brush tool when masking. It can take several minutes to show a single brush stroke (if it doesn't crash altogether). I'm much less likely to have those issue when doing the exact same thing in Photoshop ACR.  I can't fathom why there's a difference. Anyone else having these issues?

 

It's especially apparent when working on 61MP RAW files from my Sony A7riv, and less so but still problematic when processing files from my Sony A7rii.

 

It's so much more convenient not to mention nondestructive to mask files in LR Classic, especially since, given health issues, I'm mostly shooting in my garden, if at all, and it's such an easy way to blur the background and should mean I can process quickly. Working in LR also meansthe changes are in the RAW file, which I can go back to later and change. This way I don't have to make PSD or Tiff files but can simply use the the RAW file to make jpegs in whatever color space(s) I need (i do this in Photoshop so I can check the color, check that there are no blown whites etc in an srgb version, but I don't save a Tiff unless I find dust spots I missed in LR). 

 

Having to make initial edits in PS is slower and it means I must make a layered PS file in case I need to re-edit, or in case a client needs a Tiff, instead of having those changes in the RAW file. 

 

I'm working with a late 2018 Macbook Pro (purchased Feb 2018 and given a new battery & keyboard & a fresh OS install by MAC in Feb 2021 when I had some issues), so much of it is new. It's got an 6-Core i9 processor, dual graphics cards (set up as Adobe instructed), 32GB RAM. I've got over 200GB free space on my internal SSD, and am running Mac OS Monterey 12.6 - any suggestions as to what I may be doing wrong? These specs more than meet the highest recommended LR system requirements.

 

    2.  Can LR Classic handle large RAW files? I honestly love my A7riv and it works much better than the A7rii (longer battery life, rear touch screen), but I find a significant difference in the time it takes to do certain things when I'm working on a 61MP file vs a 42MP one - not surprising as the former is twice as large. I spent a small fortune switching to the Sony eco system and the files are beautiful - great color, sharp, low noise even at high ISOs.

 

 I really wonder if the problem lies in LR Classic itself, since PS has no issues, (it's slow saving flattened tiffs but saves much larger multi-layered PS and even PSD files in an instant), which is why I can't help but wonder if a new Mac would really make any difference or if the problem lies in the program itself. LR Classic also seems to crash a lot. It rarely ever crashed before the introduction of masking.

 

3.   Now it crashes even if I'm just trying to cull files which is also achingly slow - and I give it lots of time to be sure all my previews (smart and full size) are completely built before I try to start culling. 

 

4. I also often get this message in LR Classic "There was an unknown error while writing metadata to this photo. Retry?" Sometimes Retry works, sometimes it doesn't - I randomly get the message with an "!" next to one or more photos but not while I'm actually asking it to write metadata to a file.  Anyone else experiencing this?

 

So, given these issues:

 

                Do I need more space on my SSD? I'd gotten it to 600GB free and was still having the same problems. 

 

                Should I upgrade to macOS Ventura - will that help? Any experience with the upgrade and working with LR Classic and PS?

 

                 Do I need a new Mac? - the recommendations by Adobe would seem to indicate not. 

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.  (And any experience working with files from the Sony A7riv or similar especially appreciated)

[Marianne]

Both of my graphics cards support Metal 2 but not the new metal 3 despite the fact that some older computers support Metal 3 - not clear from the Adobe site what this means since Metal 2 still meets the requirements and I'm not doing 3D renders or gaming. Anyone understand this?

 

Adobe & Mac Links: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205073

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/system-requirements.html

 

I was checking Ventura vs. Monterey for LR Classic and it just said it worked with known issues but there are no issues I see unless your graphics card doesn't support Metal and Metal 2 seems to be enough? @MDM & other tech-savvy folks, can you weigh in on this and my problems above when you have the time? Thanks much

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Marianne

[M.Chapman]

9 hours ago, Marianne said:

Any suggestions greatly appreciated. 

 

Might be worth having the Activity monitor app open whilst you're seeing the slowdowns to see if any parts of the system are being over-stretched?

 

I find LR slower than PS too and it seems to be getting slower with each new release (building previews and exporting a batch of images is definitely slower than it used to be) and I'm only working with 24MP files.  It could be because my import presets have become more complex. But also my machine is also getting a bit long in the tooth now (2017 iMac 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD). If you're seeing pressure on RAM (with activity monitor) and you've got PS open at the same time as LRC it might be worth quitting and then reopening it as I suspect PS doesn't always release RAM.

 

PS. I'm running Ventura with latest PS LR CC. Upgrade from Monterey went smoothly.

 

Mark

Edited August 30, 2023 by M.Chapman

[Ed Rooney]

 

Marianne, I have to answer your complex set of questions with two simple answers: One, I have no problems with LrC on my M1 MacBook Air running on Ventura 13.4.1. And two, it's time to update your Mac. 

 

Edo

[MDM]

Is your Mac crashing (shutting down completely) or is LR just freezing? If the former then it might be overheating  - I've had that with my previous 2014 MacBook Pro when importing and generating previews, particularly in hot weather - the Mac would just restart. 

 

Either way Lightroom is not handling the task so one option would be to use an alternative app for culling (RawDigger gets great reviews - Mark might know more as he has spent time investigating various file management apps). The fact that LR is throwing an error writing metadata might mean there is a disk problem? In reality remote diagnosis is very difficult to impossible. It's always worth resetting the prefs - do a search on Adobe on how to do this and back up existing prefs beforehand.

 

The easiest answer here would be Edo's - upgrade your Mac. However, Edo is working with small Sony files. You don't want to get an entry level MacBook Air for working with 61MP raw files so you are looking at a few thousand $ to get something really future proof. As I said in the other thread, make a 61MP raw file available and I will run a few tests on my machine. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MDM

[Ed Rooney]

27 minutes ago, MDM said:

 Edo is working with small Sony files.  

 

 

Very true.

[M.Chapman]

8 hours ago, MDM said:

Either way Lightroom is not handling the task so one option would be to use an alternative app for culling (RawDigger gets great reviews - Mark might know more as he has spent time investigating various file management apps).

 

I stopped using FastRawViewer (not Digger) in the end because I found that it doesn't render thumbnails correctly. There's only one colour space setting that is applied to all thumbnails, irrespective of whether the image is sRGB or AdobeRGB. I complained to their tech support, and was told that taking the colour space into account would slow it down too much. Hey ho...  So it's OK if always using AdobeRGB or always using sRGB, but if images have a variety of colour spaces some thumbnails will be incorrectly rendered.

 

With respect to image culling, my workflow has now changed. I download a batch of images with XnViewMP and weed out any total rubbish. I then import into LR whilst applying some import presets, and then do a 2nd cull. The reason for this is that I prefer to make final decisions about which images to cull after my presets have been applied. After the batch has been processed (and adjustments saved in xmp sidecar files) I remove from LR. For image management / DAM I then use XnViewMP and use PS ACR for any additional processing if needed on individual images

 

Mark

Edited August 30, 2023 by M.Chapman

[Steve F]

I'm using a 2015 Dell XPS, 32GB RAM i7 processor. LR works fine for me with 24MP raw files, no speed issues, except the AI denoise takes a long time.

[Jill Morgan]

I use PS for all my masking. 92mb RAWs and no problems at all.  I upload them all in ACR first and do first changes there, and everything runs quick and smooth.  I don't use LR at all.

 

Self built computer with i7 processor and 32GB of RAM.  Radeon Graphics card with 8GB RAM. 1TB SSD.

 

Jill

[MDM]

11 hours ago, Jill Morgan said:

I use PS for all my masking. 92mb RAWs and no problems at all.  I upload them all in ACR first and do first changes there, and everything runs quick and smooth.  I don't use LR at all.

 

Self built computer with i7 processor and 32GB of RAM.  Radeon Graphics card with 8GB RAM. 1TB SSD.

 

Jill

 

So are you suggesting that the best way for Marianne to improve her Lightroom performance is to not use it at all? 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MDM

[Jill Morgan]

3 hours ago, MDM said:

 

So are you suggesting that the best way for Marianne to improve her Lightroom performance is to not use it at all? 

 

I am suggesting since she has PS and ACR, she may have to use those for doing masking as it seems others are finding LR getting slower as well.

 

Jill

[MDM]

55 minutes ago, Jill Morgan said:

 

I am suggesting since she has PS and ACR, she may have to use those for doing masking as it seems others are finding LR getting slower as well.

 

Jill

 

It's not really a solution though - more of a sticking plaster. For long term Lightroom users, switching to or back to ACR is not a viable option for several reasons. In any case, Lightroom works fine on the new silicon MacBook Pros (and Airs) which I think will eventually be Marianne's best option. On the largest raw files I have access to (14-bit 45 megapixel Nikon Nefs, not megabyte), there is no problem using any Lightroom features including freehand masks (as well as radial and linear masks).

 

It may be her existing computer is up to the task anyway and there is just something amiss (quite likely given the errors and crashes) but that is difficult to diagnose without having the machine to hand. It might be a matter of deciding whether to put more money into getting that fixed or move on to something that will definitely work. That is a key advantage to the new silicon Macs - there are only a few options and it is easy to tell if something will work well or not. The question then becomes about future proofing.

Edited August 31, 2023 by MDM

[Alex Ramsay]

I use a 2020 27" iMac, bought used last year, with 8TB of space and 72 GB memory, still running on Monterey. LR denoise takes well under 30 seconds on 45mp Nikon raw files, and masking is not a problem. It's certainly not nearly as fast as the M1 Macbook - it can take quite a while to create previews when uploading, for example - but fine in most circumstances.

 

Alex

[MDM]

23 minutes ago, Alex Ramsay said:

I use a 2020 27" iMac, bought used last year, with 8TB of space and 72 GB memory, still running on Monterey. LR denoise takes well under 30 seconds on 45mp Nikon raw files, and masking is not a problem. It's certainly not nearly as fast as the M1 Macbook - it can take quite a while to create previews when uploading, for example - but fine in most circumstances.

 

Alex

 

Yes that's what makes me think there may be a problem with Marianne's machine as it is well within the specs as she has mentioned. The problem could be hardware or software. A simple reset of LR prefs might be enlightening.

 

EDIT - having said that, in the other thread she says it take 3 minutes for a Denoise on a 61MP file. It would be worth running this in ACR as well and seeing how long it takes. If it is the same 3 minutes then it is likely the machine is not up to the Denoise task  - probably the graphics card is not sufficiently endowed for the task in which case a new machine is the solution I guess. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MDM

[Marianne]

Thanks for all the answers. I regretted opting for the more expensive i9 rather than the i7 having discovered too late that the i9 runs much hotter. Even using a stand to dissipate the heat doesn't help enough. Heat buildup could be what's causing that beachball of death - yes it just stalls so long I have to force quit after processing just a few photos. 

 

I'll try the ACR/LR comparisons that you suggest and will also compare 42MP files to 61MP. LRc works great on my 16MP Olympus files.

 

Both graphics cards handle Metal 2 but not Metal 3 - frustrating as I did my best to future proof this machine but perhaps I need Metal 3 for larger files? The Adobe literature isn't clear. I guess this will become  a very pricey backup -  it's lasted a little over 4 1/2 years - about the time within which I've had to upgrade past Macbooks, but had I not gone for the 32GB RAM I'd have had to replace it much sooner. Still, I spent way too much on this machine, hoping it would last longer. I wish I could just upgrade the graphics card and get another year or so out of it. Anyone know of places (in the US - preferably in NY) that can do this - it's out of warranty so I'm assuming someone can open it up. 

 

Switching to ACR for all my edits is way too slow -  making initial edits (which now requires masks ) & culling files are what made LRc speed up my workflow in the first place. I don't  want to switch to CaptureOne with 3 LR catalogs going back to 2005 that hold (point to) nearly two decade's worth of images. 

 

Meanwhile, I'll try resetting the preferences again, particularly with regard to the graphics card, though I read up on it and reset them when the problem started.

 

Maybe upgrading to Ventura will help.

 

@M.Chapman  The RAM is okay I've checked it with Activity Monitor - anything else I should be looking for? 

 

I guess I need to start investigating the M1 Macbook Pros - any suggestions on the specs I should go for? 

 

@MDM thanks for the offer to check out a 61MP file. My email is wordplanet at gmail.com  - send me an email with yours and I'll send you a link to a couple of my largest RAW files to experiment with. Put MDM from Alamy in the subject line in case it lands in junk so I can find it. Thanks so much.

 

 

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Marianne said:

Both graphics cards handle Metal 2 but not Metal 3 - frustrating as I did my best to future proof this machine but perhaps I need Metal 3 for larger files? The Adobe literature isn't clear. I guess this will become  a very pricey backup -  it's lasted a little over 4 1/2 years - about the time within which I've had to upgrade past Macbooks, but had I not gone for the 32GB RAM I'd have had to replace it much sooner. Still, I spent way too much on this machine, hoping it would last longer. I wish I could just upgrade the graphics card and get another year or so out of it. Anyone know of places (in the US - preferably in NY) that can do this - it's out of warranty so I'm assuming someone can open it up. 

 

Switching to ACR for all my edits is way too slow -  making initial edits (which now requires masks ) & culling files are what made LRc speed up my workflow in the first place. I don't  want to switch to CaptureOne with 3 LR catalogs going back to 2005 that hold (point to) nearly two decade's worth of images. 

 

Meanwhile, I'll try resetting the preferences again, particularly with regard to the graphics card, though I read up on it and reset them when the problem started.

 

Maybe upgrading to Ventura will help.

 

@M.Chapman  The RAM is okay I've checked it with Activity Monitor - anything else I should be looking for? 

 

I guess I need to start investigating the M1 Macbook Pros - any suggestions on the specs I should go for? 

 

@MDM thanks for the offer to check out a 61MP file. My email is wordplanet at gmail.com  - send me an email with yours and I'll send you a link to a couple of my largest RAW files to experiment with. Put MDM from Alamy in the subject line in case it lands in junk so I can find it. Thanks so much.

 

 

 

Metal 3 is not essential and upgrading to Ventura is unlikely to help - if anything it might slow things down. I'm running Monterey with Metal 2 on my MacBook Pro and it is fine with Lightroom (and Photoshop) as well as the much more heavy duty video programs I've been using these days. It may be that Metal 3 with Ventura might be faster or not but I've been holding back upgrading to Ventura for other unrelated reasons. 

 

As far as a new machine is concerned, you don't want to even consider anything less than 32GB of memory for future proofing. The current chip is M2 which is faster than the M1 version from 2021 which I have. Again these machines cannot be upgraded so don't cut corners when buying. You may want to go to 64GB in fact just to be on the safe side. That is  overkill now for 61MP raw stills I would guess but a few years down the line who knows? And if you are using multi-layer Photoshop files you might just need more. Most importantly we are talking unified memory which includes graphics memory and not just RAM.

 

You can't mix and match memory so if you are definitely going for a laptop, 32GB limits you to either the 14" or 16" MacBook Pros. Both are incredibly powerful and should easily handle what 61MP files.  Mine is a 14" as I wanted something light for travelling and I use it with an external monitor when not on the road. I edit 8K raw video with no problem, which is way more intensive in terms of processing than my 45MP raw stills which it consumes without a hiccup.

 

Internal storage is very expensive so I recommend going for 1TB (the minimum now for the 32GB and higher configurations as far as I can see) and using external SSDs which are much better value and more than fast enough for anything you are ever likely to do. In other words, prioritise memory over internal storage. 

 

I'll email you for a link to the 61MP files. If you have a spare 42MP file or two as well, it would be interesting to compare as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MDM

[M.Chapman]

18 hours ago, Marianne said:

@M.Chapman  The RAM is okay I've checked it with Activity Monitor - anything else I should be looking for? 

 

CPU% load might be revealing?

Also - If you're running into "thermal throttling" have you checked the cooling vents are clear of dust etc.?

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+clean+your+MacBooks+fan+and+prevent+overheating!/144643

Although I doubt this would cause slow response on the brush strokes, unless LR is still completing other tasks (e.g. preview generation or exports) in the background.

Not sure if any of Scott Kelby's tips might help - perhaps no 7? https://lightroomkillertips.com/lightroom-running-slowits-probably-one-7-reasons/

In addition to comparing performance differences between PS ACR and LR ACR, does the problem go away if processing smaller RAWs?

 

Mark

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by M.Chapman

[Marianne]

1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

 

CPU% load might be revealing?

Also - If you're running into "thermal throttling" have you checked the cooling vents are clear of dust etc.?

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+clean+your+MacBooks+fan+and+prevent+overheating!/144643

Although I doubt this would cause slow response on the brush strokes, unless LR is still completing other tasks (e.g. preview generation or exports) in the background.

Not sure if any of Scott Kelby's tips might help - perhaps no 7? https://lightroomkillertips.com/lightroom-running-slowits-probably-one-7-reasons/

In addition to comparing performance differences between PS ACR and LR ACR, does the problem go away if processing smaller RAWs?

 

Mark

 

 

Thanks Mark.

What % should my CPU% be at?

Cleaning sounds easy but don't you need one of those cloths that stops static, etc & is a hair dryer really safe? Have you actually done this? 

They have so many security bit screwdrivers, not sure how to find the right one here in the US - they don't call it Pentalobe - but it seems to be some sort of pentagonal shape rather than just a tiny jeweler's Phillip's head screw. I wonder if they bothered cleaning my MAC when they took it apart to put in the new battery - if so, it's still been a year & a half since then. I clean my keyboard and the crease sat the hinge between keyboard & screen with a soft brush but I'm sure plenty of dust gets in there anyway. 

 

[M.Chapman]

2 hours ago, Marianne said:

 

Thanks Mark.

What % should my CPU% be at?

Cleaning sounds easy but don't you need one of those cloths that stops static, etc & is a hair dryer really safe? Have you actually done this? 

They have so many security bit screwdrivers, not sure how to find the right one here in the US - they don't call it Pentalobe - but it seems to be some sort of pentagonal shape rather than just a tiny jeweler's Phillip's head screw. I wonder if they bothered cleaning my MAC when they took it apart to put in the new battery - if so, it's still been a year & a half since then. I clean my keyboard and the crease sat the hinge between keyboard & screen with a soft brush but I'm sure plenty of dust gets in there anyway. 

 

What % should my CPU% be at?

Not stuck at 100% for long periods, especially if the computer isn't apparently doing anything intensive. Another indication of issues are if the cooling fans are coming on full blast when not expected.

 

I cleaned my MacBook Pro when I had one, but that was an earlier (2012) model which used a tiny Philip's / jewellers screwdriver. You might need to use a magnifying glass to confirm which screw type you have. NB. If you do remove screws, make a note of which screw goes where as they may not all be the same length and be careful not to damage the screw heads.

 

I used a can of compressed air to blow dust away. Yes basic static precautions are a good idea, especially if your environment has very low humidity.

No need for an antistatic cloth. Work on a bare wooden table top, wear a natural fabric top (not synthetic), and be sure to touch the metal chassis of the computer with both hands and any tool tips, before touching the innards. Also best to work in a room with a tiled (not synthetic carpet) floor.

 

If you're not confident but feel cleaning might be needed, could you take it back to the workshop where you had it upgraded and ask for a clean? 

 

Mark

Edited September 1, 2023 by M.Chapman

[wiskerke]

On 01/09/2023 at 21:30, M.Chapman said:

I used a can of compressed air to blow dust away. Yes basic static precautions are a good idea, especially if your environment has very low humidity.

Or if you have cats.

Btdt. (Not the reason we don't have cats anymore.)

 

wim

[Sally]

This year I’ve had to buy both a new Mac desktop (studio) and this week a new MacBook Air because my old 2017 iMac and 2018 MacBook Pro simply couldn’t cope with the processing demands of Lightroom Classic. Running LR now is like a dream on both new computers. It seems the progression of the power hungry demands of this programme (and Photoshop) means that upgrading computers regularly is going to be necessary. The problems were mainly crashing or taking forever to do masking/DeNoise.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Sally