geogphotos Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) I thought it would be interesting to do some simple analysis of the sales performance of a month-long trip that I took to Sri Lanka in 2015. After 9 years I wondered if I had covered my costs and if there were lessons to learn. https://geographyphotos.blog/2024/07/20/sri-lanka-stock-photo-trip-2015-sales-summary-after-9-years-2/ Edited July 20 by geogphotos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Holland Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Tremendous - well documented and a useful insight. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty LaRue Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 55 minutes ago, geogphotos said: I thought it would be interesting to do some simple analysis of the sales performance of a month-long trip that I took to Sri Lanka in 2015. After 9 years I wondered if I had covered my costs and if there were lessons to learn. https://geographyphotos.blog/2024/07/20/sri-lanka-stock-photo-trip-2015-sales-summary-after-9-years-2/ Your boat picture is really nice. (They all are) I noticed the shape of the boats are somewhat mirrored by the shape of the distant land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Lowe Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) I spent two months in New Zealand in 2008 which cost me about £2000. I've had 65 sales (Alamy only) with an average fee of £22.45 = £1458.98 in total so far. At least it's paid the air fare! Edited July 20 by Vincent Lowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 Thanks for the comments. It would be great to hear about other people's experiences of a 'big trip' and whether it has paid for itself. Looking back on the Sri Lanka trip I feel that we went along on a standard route and suspect that is what happens to many people when they visit a faraway land. That is not a complaint or self-criticism, merely an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 One’s expertise at reducing travel overhead plays a role, e.g., finding reduced prices, using points-miles, etc. I just spent near $10K total for (2) on 24 nights but it offered “special” access – many industrial ports, cruise employees & passengers, different destinations daily, etc. Actually covered costs fully in advance via new Wall Street short term investment strategy (select mega caps dropping sharply immediately after quarterly earnings report) but I also hope to cover costs in about 6 years via stock photo profits. Early evidence of that happening will trigger more such itineraries… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) More to the point, possibly, a business trip is tax-deductible straight away, so you may have to wait for the revenue but you don't have to wait for the tax loss if you have other income. Probably not something you could use every year without the Revenue taking an interest. Edited July 21 by spacecadet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvallee Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Out of my many trips, I never had one paying for itself through photography income. I guess that, for me, the reason might be limited editorial interest: remote locations, wildlife, few or no people/concepts pics. I travel because I love travelling, photography comes second. The remotest the better. One consequence is the cost of getting there and in turn, the local cost of living. Example of recent trips: French Polynesia, Cook Islands, Vanuatu, Borneo. Even with compromising and mixing a bit of luxury with very basic accommodation, the cost of one month in French Polynesia was eye watering. It could never be recouped through licenses. The most decent money I made out of a trip were 5 weeks in Brazil and Peru. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ventura Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 15 hours ago, gvallee said: Out of my many trips, I never had one paying for itself through photography income. I guess that, for me, the reason might be limited editorial interest: remote locations, wildlife, few or no people/concepts pics. I travel because I love travelling, photography comes second. The remotest the better. One consequence is the cost of getting there and in turn, the local cost of living. Example of recent trips: French Polynesia, Cook Islands, Vanuatu, Borneo. Even with compromising and mixing a bit of luxury with very basic accommodation, the cost of one month in French Polynesia was eye watering. It could never be recouped through licenses. The most decent money I made out of a trip were 5 weeks in Brazil and Peru. There was a time when I planned trips for stock and they paid off. But like you, Gen, my trips now are for me and stock has become secondary. If I can make back some money, all the better. Edited July 22 by Michael Ventura 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 (edited) Picking up on Spacecadet's point there is a tax dimension to this. For those saying that they can't recover the cost of a trip and it is just a holiday I assume that there is no effort to offset costs against profit? That it is just a leisure activity. In UK there is a rule that there must be a reasonable expectation that the activity is based on the business producing a gain (or words to that effect). The Sri Lanka trip is 9 years old so out of tax consideration. But I'd like to think that keeping records and being able to demonstrate that a return is being made would be viewed positively should His Majesty's Revenue and Customs come enquiring. But with things getting harder and harder it does make you think about the whole viability of travelling for stock purposes as a business activity. I'm not sure that many accountant's would understand how stock works and its long-term cycles. There are different ways of looking at this. Perhaps individual aspects of a businees can be permitted to be loss making for the greater good of the entirety of it? In other words as a travel stock photographer you are expected to offer pics of travel to stock agencies and potential clients. Interested in readng the views of others. Edited July 22 by geogphotos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Standfast Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 Doing something you realy like AND breaking even. No bad, not bad at all. 🦔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin L Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 Having worked and fought with HMRC to keep myself within the IR35 rules for many years I would think they would begin to take a pretty dim view of constantly offsetting expensive trips against a few $10 licenses to reduce the tax burden. It maybe 'legitimate' but could raise a few red flags and 'evidence' may have to be provided (of which there is likely to be limited help of what that constitutes) to prove the legitimacy of it. (But as a caveat I am pretty risk averse 🙂) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 3 hours ago, geogphotos said: The Sri Lanka trip is 9 years old so out of tax consideration. But I'd like to think that keeping records and being able to demonstrate that a return is being made would be viewed positively should His Majesty's Revenue and Customs come enquiring. I agree. It's not too relevant to me because I never get near the personal allowance, but even if the revenue is spread out over some years you're still justified in taking the deduction in the year you spend the money. When it was relevant I would deduct the expenses that related directly to the work, and to be fair this was journalism rather than stock. But of course the criterion for self-employed expenses doesn't require them to be "exclusively" for work as it does for employees. If the expense has an incidental non-business purpose it may still be tax-deductible. Plenty of scope for those on a trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 13 minutes ago, Martin L said: Having worked and fought with HMRC to keep myself within the IR35 rules for many years I would think they would begin to take a pretty dim view of constantly offsetting expensive trips against a few $10 licenses to reduce the tax burden. It maybe 'legitimate' but could raise a few red flags and 'evidence' may have to be provided (of which there is likely to be limited help of what that constitutes) to prove the legitimacy of it. (But as a caveat I am pretty risk averse 🙂) I can't speak about IR35 as it doesn't apply to sole traders, but the rules may be more restrictive. Of course the leisure element has to be incidental, not the business element! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) My stock photo expenses have never approached my stock photo $$, but if they ever do I would call IRS to verify it is OK to only deduct a portion of those expenses that is less than stock photo income… $600 gross $300 net just appeared for a 2023 road trip image… (should cover most gas-petrol $$ spent during that itinerary) Edited July 22 by Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said: My stock photo expenses have never approached my stock photo $$, but if they ever do I would call IRS to verify it is OK to only deduct a portion of those expenses that is less than stock photo income… $600 gross $300 net just appeared for a 2023 road trip image… (should cover most gas-petrol $$ spent during that itinerary) In UK if a person has gross business income over £1000 they are obliged to inform HMRC and register for tax self-assessment. After that point it is just common sense to offset all the expenses that are available. There are various flat-rate schemes to simplify things. For example, 45p per mile to cover business motoring expenses ( I keep a notebook in the car and record any stock trips - did 100 miles today = £45 to offset) £26 a month for home office expenses if you work 101 hours or more per month or you can choose to use that actual expenses ( if higher) Some possible allowable expenses available the self-employed include: ( my italics) office costs, for example stationery or phone bills ( or use flat rate scheme mentioned above) travel costs, for example fuel, parking, train or bus fares clothing expenses, for example uniforms staff costs, for example salaries or subcontractor costs things you buy to sell on, for example stock or raw materials financial costs, for example insurance or bank charges costs of your business premises, for example heating, lighting, business rates ( or use flat rate scheme if working at home) advertising or marketing, for example website costs training courses related to your business, for example refresher courses Edited July 22 by geogphotos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 (edited) 38 minutes ago, geogphotos said: In UK if a person has gross business income over £1000 they are obliged to inform HMRC and register for tax self-assessment. I know that this is going off topic but I've just checked and 'gross income' includes commission. So if Alamy gross sales before commission reductions are over £1000 you are supposed to register for self-assessment. 🤑 Edited July 22 by geogphotos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Decio Molaro Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 On 7/21/2024 at 6:40 AM, gvallee said: Out of my many trips, I never had one paying for itself through photography income. I guess that, for me, the reason might be limited editorial interest: remote locations, wildlife, few or no people/concepts pics. I travel because I love travelling, photography comes second. The remotest the better. One consequence is the cost of getting there and in turn, the local cost of living. Example of recent trips: French Polynesia, Cook Islands, Vanuatu, Borneo. Even with compromising and mixing a bit of luxury with very basic accommodation, the cost of one month in French Polynesia was eye watering. It could never be recouped through licenses. The most decent money I made out of a trip were 5 weeks in Brazil and Peru. come to Brazil. I'm here... I hope you liked it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Decio Molaro Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 In Brazil you pay tax! Pay ! Pay more and still pay! No bonuses or anything like that... so we don't travel much, a ticket to Europe is unthinkable... Very expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 but you stated you didn't deduct anything in 2015 after Sri Lanka; did you have 0 stock income in 2015? Well then, K (short for OK) but let's say you had £400 stock income; why couldn't you deduct, say, £350 2015 travel expenses out of say £800 total 2015 travel expenses? Documented, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said: but you stated you didn't deduct anything in 2015 after Sri Lanka; did you have 0 stock income in 2015? Well then, K (short for OK) but let's say you had £400 stock income; why couldn't you deduct, say, £350 2015 travel expenses out of say £800 total 2015 travel expenses? Documented, of course... I didn't say that Jeff. To be honest I can't remember what I deducted from stock income in 2015. I keep records for the time period that HMRC requires and then dump them. Edited July 22 by geogphotos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 2 hours ago, geogphotos said: I didn't say that "The Sri Lanka trip is 9 years old so out of tax consideration." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvallee Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 3 hours ago, Jose Decio Molaro said: come to Brazil. I'm here... I hope you liked it I've been to Brazil many times Jose, I used to own a boat in Manaus. One of the happiest memories of my life was sitting at the prow of my boat, deeply breathing in the smell of the rainforest while sailing up the Rio Negro. Brazil made me very very happy. The music, the dancing, the food, the people, the wildlife, the wilderness, what a country!! Only yesterday I was listening to Brazilian music here in Australia. Oh, I had a Brazilian Uber driver here last week. What joy it was to speak Portuguese again! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogphotos Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said: "The Sri Lanka trip is 9 years old so out of tax consideration." I have to keep records for HMRC for the previous five years. I am not required to have records going back to 2015. That does not mean that I did not deduct any expenses in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 17 hours ago, geogphotos said: I know that this is going off topic but I've just checked and 'gross income' includes commission. So if Alamy gross sales before commission reductions are over £1000 you are supposed to register for self-assessment. 🤑 Porbably not OT at all, there could be many here close to that line. But I believe that rule applies to individuals acting as agents who derive their income from commission, and not to folks such as us who actually produce the goods. It would apply to a picture agency, but not to a contributor to it. IMO. Edited July 23 by spacecadet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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