Denoise?

[IKuzmin]

36 minutes ago, MDM said:

I totally agree that photo editing on a laptop is not to be recommended unless one is also using a decent external monitor that can be properly calibrated. However, a decent laptop is useful for travelling and I use one myself for that purpose.

 

To be clear, I wasn't claiming that Mac is the only solution and I am not intending to start a pointless debate on Mac v PC as that leads nowhere. However, Jeff was asking was for advice on what to do about his outdated laptop graphics card so I suggested a new computer as upgrading an old laptop is either impossible or not economiccally feasible. I suggested a Mac for some very good reasons - again not worth going into detail unless requested. That said, I would just point out that, as far as I know, Edo is using the original entry level MacBook Air purchased in 2020 and he is claiming above that it does a Denoise in 20s on his Sony 24MP files. Now that is impressive for a three year old entry level machine. 

 

Of course Jeff would have the option of using an earlier version of Photoshop/ACR but that would not be with Denoise, which is  the subject of the thread, so I would assume that he is also looking for advice on how to use this feature.  Again the only feasible option is to get a new computer really. 

If use a "decent external monitor", what's the reason to use an otherwise slow laptop at all (as it never will be as fast as a similar tower due to the cooling problems)? When I travel with a laptop, I do not take an external monitor with me.

 

JIG was inquiring on a laptop purchase a couple of months ago but did not follow any suggestions from this forum.

 

I had a "graphics-related" experience with Mac in early 2000s, was not impressed at all primarily with the rigidity of the system (which was also not justified with the costs involved), and discontinued that experience without any regrets. But I do appreciate that there are always some folks who prefer spending more on fancy processing stuff than on photo equipment.

 

I do not use Denoise from Adobe but Denoise AI and Sharpen AI from Topaz, on 20 Mp and 45 Mp files using my 2018 Dell desktop without problems even if not with the lightning speed (and this machine was not the top version even at the moment of purchase). Indeed, I would never try using these AI apps on my 2020-2022 Dell laptops (which were also not the top but "decent" config), only a basic editing in older versions of PS which works flawlessly.

Edited August 21, 2023 by IKuzmin

[MDM]

9 minutes ago, IKuzmin said:

If use a "decent external monitor", what's the reason to use an otherwise slow laptop at all (as it never will be as fast as a similar tower due to the cooling problems)? When I travel with a laptop, I do not take an external monitor with me.

 

I had a "graphics-related" experience with Mac in early 2000s, was not impressed at all primarily with the rigidity of the system (which was also not justified with the costs involved), and discontinued that experience without any regrets. But I do appreciate that there are always some folks who prefer spending more on fancy processing stuff than on photo equipment.

 

 

Your impressions are clearly and firmly based in the past. You can't validly compare today's machines to whatever it was you used 20 years The new Mac laptops are immensely powerful as well as being incredibly energy efficient due to the new chip design. The higher end MacBook Pros are powerful enough for high end video editing. I use mine for editing 8K raw video when travelling. I have a desktop machine as well at home but the MacBook Pro is faster for many tasks and it doesn't overheat. These new Macs (since 2020) are game changers.

 

I want comfort and quality when I work - that means good camera kit and good computers to process the results. Using computers that are not really up to the task is immensely frustrating.

 

Anyway enough time spent on this. 

 

[StokeCreative]

44 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

Your impressions are clearly and firmly based in the past. You can't validly compare today's machines to whatever it was you used 20 years The new Mac laptops are immensely powerful as well as being incredibly energy efficient due to the new chip design. The higher end MacBook Pros are powerful enough for high end video editing. I use mine for editing 8K raw video when travelling. I have a desktop machine as well at home but the MacBook Pro is faster for many tasks and it doesn't overheat. These new Macs (since 2020) are game changers.

 

I want comfort and quality when I work - that means good camera kit and good computers to process the results. Using computers that are not really up to the task is immensely frustrating.

 

Anyway enough time spent on this. 

 

 

Absolutely agree, Macs also have a better TCO than Windows machines, so the upfront higher cost is easily negated over the life of the machine.

But we weren't going to go there.......

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

On 20/08/2023 at 16:25, MDM said:

 

If your current computer can't run Photoshop/ACR/Lightroom...

to clarify

if clarification is needed

 

(but first an aside: I appreciated previous new laptop advice,

but found current laptop still does well after fall to hard floor}

 

despite graphics processor message, all my Photoshop 2023

actions still work normal vs. before warning message
appeared several months ago...

look at my latest online images to infer my Photoshop usage...

(I've never learned Layers, but use several Tools)

(am going to try Denoise next batch of new DNGs)

 

my Photoshop warning:
Warning: Driver update recommended Warning: Driver is out of date (25 months, should be less than 6 months) Fail:
OpenGL unavailable Fail: DirectX unavailable Pass: OpenCL available Pass: Direct X feature level 12.1 available, feature level 12.0 required Pass:
Above required VRAM (8648 MB of 1500 MB required) GPU Detected: Intel(R) HD Graphics 520 (INTEL)

 

oddly, in another place it states:
Caution: 

We have this known issue where the dialog could report that 'Your graphics processor is incompatible.'
If you're running Windows on an Intel-based system with the 'Microsoft OpenCL/OpenGL Compatibility Pack'
installed, the solution is to uninstall the compatibility pack and restart the computer.

"uninstall the compatibility pack" which I don't know how to find-do

thanks for your patience!

Edited August 21, 2023 by Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg

[Martin L]

28 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

to clarify

if clarification is needed

 

(but first an aside: I appreciated previous new laptop advice,

but found current laptop still does well after fall to hard floor}

 

despite graphics processor message, all my Photoshop 2023

actions still work normal vs. before warning message
appeared several months ago...

look at my latest online images to infer my Photoshop usage...

(I've never learned Layers, but use several Tools)

(am going to try Denoise next batch of new DNGs)

 

my Photoshop warning:
Warning: Driver update recommended Warning: Driver is out of date (25 months, should be less than 6 months) Fail:
OpenGL unavailable Fail: DirectX unavailable Pass: OpenCL available Pass: Direct X feature level 12.1 available, feature level 12.0 required Pass:
Above required VRAM (8648 MB of 1500 MB required) GPU Detected: Intel(R) HD Graphics 520 (INTEL)

 

oddly, in another place it states:
Caution: 

We have this known issue where the dialog could report that 'Your graphics processor is incompatible.'
If you're running Windows on an Intel-based system with the 'Microsoft OpenCL/OpenGL Compatibility Pack'
installed, the solution is to uninstall the compatibility pack and restart the computer.

"uninstall the compatibility pack" which I don't know how to find-do

thanks for your patience!

 

Option 2 here:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/168452-how-install-opencl-opengl-compatibility-pack-windows-10-a.html

 

PS: Never had to do it, so don't shoot the messenger if it don't work

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Martin L

[Betty LaRue]

I agree with MDM (Michael) about Mac machines. I started out with PCs. I won’t go into all the crashes & troubles I had, even though I spent a lot of money on the top PCs with highest specs.

I’m on my third Mac & each time I traded, it was because I wanted newer as the older got long in the tooth. PS kept requiring more & more.

 Crashes and that mode where everything goes gray (safe mode?) is a thing of the faraway past. I just want to be able to sit down in front of my machine & have it do what I need it to do. I don’t buy Macs because I want to brag about spending top dollar, I just want to get the job done, whatever the cost. Granted, sometimes I have hard pains in my pocketbook, but bite the bullet & do it. I give up other things to save for what I need. I don’t have my nails or hair done, and keep my cars a long time. It’s been so long since I had a vacation that the only way I remember is to look at the dates on my images. I’m guessing about 7 years ago.

And I don’t get pleasure with lording my choice over anyone. Like some car owners I have known who buy Cadillacs just for showing off.  
In  the past, I chose what horse to buy & ride the same way. I wanted intelligence, calm demeanor & a superior ride. I should have named my mare “Apple”.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Betty LaRue

[MDM]

On 20/08/2023 at 15:43, Mr Standfast said:

Any body taken it over 12800?

 

I just tried ISO 12,800 (with a Z9) out in the deep dark woods earlier on some lords and ladies (the plants, not the local aristocrats) and the Denoise results are astonishingly good. Amazing in fact. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by MDM

[MDM]

45 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

I agree with MDM (Michael) about Mac machines. I started out with PCs. I won’t go into all the crashes & troubles I had, even though I spent a lot of money on the top PCs with highest specs.

I’m on my third Mac & each time I traded, it was because I wanted newer as the older got long in the tooth. PS kept requiring more & more.

 Crashes and that mode where everything goes gray (safe mode?) is a thing of the faraway past. I just want to be able to sit down in front of my machine & have it do what I need it to do. I don’t buy Macs because I want to brag about spending top dollar, I just want to get the job done, whatever the cost. Granted, sometimes I have hard pains in my pocketbook, but bite the bullet & do it. I give up other things to save for what I need. I don’t have my nails or hair done, and keep my cars a long time. It’s been so long since I had a vacation that the only way I remember is to look at the dates on my images. I’m guessing about 7 years ago.

And I don’t get pleasure with lording my choice over anyone. Like some car owners I have known who buy Cadillacs just for showing off.  
In  the past, I chose what horse to buy & ride the same way. I wanted intelligence, calm demeanor & a superior ride. I should have named my mare “Apple”.

 

With you there Betty. You have hit multiple nails on multiple heads there. I get gear that does the job I need it to do. Macs just make life a lot simpler because the software is designed for the hardware. Looking at Jeff's problems is enough of a reminder of what it is like to run a Windows machine. But we were not going there were we 😀?

[Betty LaRue]

1 minute ago, MDM said:

 

With you there Betty. You have hit multiple nails on multiple heads there. I get gear that does the job I need it to do. Macs just make life a lot simpler because the software is designed for the hardware. Looking at Jeff's problems is enough of a reminder of what it is like to run a Windows machine. But we were not going there were we 😀?

Lol, no, Michael, not going there.
I just added up what I save cutting & fixing my own hair, (in the past, coloring it) & giving myself mani/pedis. Over a 5 year period, I could buy 2 or 3 top of the line Macs with my savings. It’s what’s important to me that counts, & my computer is more important.

And over my lifetime since I began doing all things hair at age 17, I’ve gotten quite good at it. The reason I know is I get compliments from strangers. I always tell them naturally curly hair hides a multitude of mistakes. 😁

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

16 minutes ago, MDM said:

Looking at Jeff's problems...

Problems?!!  No.  An issue, yes.

Laptop working uninterrupted since 2017 new...

I'm not sayin' my Lenovo's better than Apple;

what I am sayin' is this:
never had it crash since 2017 new;

after couple weeks of on-hibernation-on-hibernation-on-hibernation etc.

the cursor or screen can freeze & its time to simply reboot -- is that a crash...?
its not a crisis crash if it is a crash...

[IKuzmin]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

my Photoshop warning:
Warning: Driver update recommended Warning: Driver is out of date (25 months, should be less than 6 months) Fail:
OpenGL unavailable Fail: DirectX unavailable Pass: OpenCL available Pass: Direct X feature level 12.1 available, feature level 12.0 required Pass:
Above required VRAM (8648 MB of 1500 MB required) GPU Detected: Intel(R) HD Graphics 520 (INTEL)

 

oddly, in another place it states:
Caution: 

We have this known issue where the dialog could report that 'Your graphics processor is incompatible.'
If you're running Windows on an Intel-based system with the 'Microsoft OpenCL/OpenGL Compatibility Pack'
installed, the solution is to uninstall the compatibility pack and restart the computer.

From experience, PS is usually doing good enough with graphics ~4 years old. Your Intel 520 is somewhat old for now but should be good, as I mentioned, for a ~2 years old PS. If your PS cannot use Open GL and OpenCL features it works slowly. I do not know how dramatic this difference is for Intel 520 though.

 

As the first resort you still can try to update your graphics driver for Intel 520, may be this would resort your issue:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/products/88355/graphics/intel-hd-graphics-family/intel-hd-graphics-520.html and the following link https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005629/graphics.html

 

If not, I would go for an older version of PS which is also not as heavy as the most recent versions and will use less memory and work little faster on your aged laptop (but I think you still need to update your drivers).

 

Finally, you can continue working as you do now... But modern AI-based features, including that fancy Denoise, would shine on modern machines with dedicated GPU.

[IKuzmin]

1 hour ago, Betty LaRue said:

I should have named my mare “Apple”.

And then the foals iPad, iPhone?..

 

[MDM]

21 minutes ago, Betty LaRue said:

Lol, no, Michael, not going there.
I just added up what I save cutting & fixing my own hair, (in the past, coloring it) & giving myself mani/pedis. Over a 5 year period, I could buy 2 or 3 top of the line Macs with my savings. It’s what’s important to me that counts, & my computer is more important.

And over my lifetime since I began doing all things hair at age 17, I’ve gotten quite good at it. The reason I know is I get compliments from strangers. I always tell them naturally curly hair hides a multitude of mistakes. 😁

 

My hair's still curly and my eyes are still blue. I used to cut my curly hair myself many years ago but it was not one of my greatest skills. Not enough of it nowadays to risk it.

 

 

[IKuzmin]

44 minutes ago, MDM said:

a reminder of what it is like to run a Windows machine

Of course! But ignorance causes errors not only on Windows machines. And vice versa! I wonder why I do not remember crashes on my PCs for the "recent" ~20 years.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by IKuzmin

[MDM]

10 minutes ago, IKuzmin said:

Of course! But ignorance causes errors not only on Windows machines. And vice versa!

 

Looks like we've gone there so yes sure. But there is a lot more to learn running Windows mainly because of the huge variation in hardware. I could solve Jeff's issues in seconds if he was running a 2017 Mac by looking up the system requirements on the Adobe website. The Mac universe is small and easy to decipher. Not so easy with Windows.

 

As another illustration, you only have to look at one of the professional video software forums (e.g. DaVinci Resolve) to see how complex the problems can be with graphics drivers on Windows because of the far greater demands of video graphics in comparison to stills.

 

Anyway back to the topic. Yes Adobe's Denoise is miraculous and well worth investigating whatever platform you use.

[IKuzmin]

16 minutes ago, MDM said:

I could solve Jeff's issues in seconds if he was running a 2017 Mac by looking up the system requirements on the Adobe website. The Mac universe is small and easy to decipher.

Allright. I really would not be able to SOLVE his problem looking up the system requirements on the Adobe website. Decipher at best. And what then?..

 

Anyway back to the topic, I do not see in Adobe's Denoise any advantages over the algorithms of DxO Photolab, and see inferiority compared to the highly adjustable Topaz products. Still, none is ideal, and I start processing w/o using any of them. As was discussed earlier in another thread, I apply Denoise or Sharpen on a separate layer in PS and filter it to the previous layer through a layer mask of variable density.

Edited August 21, 2023 by IKuzmin

[wiskerke]

49 minutes ago, IKuzmin said:

Allright. I really would not be able to SOLVE his problem looking up the system requirements on the Adobe website. 

Sorry I'm a bit late to the discussion, but why not just follow the on-screen instruction?

Your link to the drivers page looks like it's all one would need. Including a how to instruction. Adobe US has a similar page, but out of date.

It could be that there's a proprietary driver, in which case the Intel install will give a warning and I think abort. In that case the manufacturer of the laptop surely has drivers online somewhere.

 

Jeff, I don't think Adobe still has phone help other than sales. They do have chat though. Not sure it is still a real person, but I think so.

When I was an Enterprise client someone came over. 😁 Times long gone.

 

Edo, thank you for alerting me. I had not seen nor used the AI de-noise yet. Some of the Neural filters include de-noising and smoothing as well. But I hadn't looked under the ACR Detail header yet. Or just hadn't noticed. Besides I am copying old family photos all at 100 ISO. The de-noise is rubbish for that, and most of the time so is the AI/Neural Photo Restoration filter, except when all of a sudden it's brilliant.

 

wim

Edited August 22, 2023 by wiskerke
typo

[Ed Rooney]

6 hours ago, wiskerke said:

Edo, thank you for alerting me. I had not seen nor used the AI de-noise yet. Some of the Neural filters include de-noising and smoothing as well. But I hadn't looked under the ACR Detail header yet. Or just hadn't noticed. Besides I am copying old family photos all at 100 ISO. The de-noise is rubbish for that, and most of the time so is the AI/Neural Photo Restoration filter, except when all of a sudden it's brilliant.

 

wim

 

Every day is a new tech world . . . but the same old Edo. 😜

[IKuzmin]

10 hours ago, wiskerke said:

Sorry I'm a bit late to the discussion, but why not just follow the on-screen instruction?

Your link to the drivers page looks like it's all one would need. Including a how to instruction. 

Sorry for my poor English, it was just a sarcasm.

Edited August 22, 2023 by IKuzmin

[MDM]

Deleted

Edited August 22, 2023 by MDM

[MDM]

On 20/08/2023 at 15:43, Mr Standfast said:

Any body taken it over 12800?

 

Just did a bit more experimentation in low light with my wife posing for some facial portraits. I removed all NR and sharpening before applying Denoise at default settings and exposures were perfect out of camera. Plastic skin starts to be a serious problem at ISO3200 (Z7) and ISO12800 (Z9). At ISO3200, the Z9 gives excellent results with no need for any further sharpening (could have been taken at low ISO in good light) whereas the Z7 looks soft even at ISO 1600 and needs more processing.

 

I can see how useful this might be for wedding photography in a dark ceremony venue although I think I would reserve it for a few special images rather than run everything through Denoise which would take a lot of computer processing time even with a fast machine and consume a lot of storage as the DNGs are well over 200MB.

 

The quality of the results are definitely camera-dependent as well as being subject-dependent but overall very impressive.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by MDM

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

21 hours ago, Martin L said:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/168452-how-install-opencl-opengl-compatibility-pack-windows-10-a.html

Thanks, but Adobe statement previously posted says,
"the solution is to uninstall the compatibility pack and restart the computer."
so I should uninstall, not install, right?
how does one find "compatibility pack"...?

[Martin L]

52 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

Thanks, but Adobe statement previously posted says,
"the solution is to uninstall the compatibility pack and restart the computer."
so I should uninstall, not install, right?
how does one find "compatibility pack"...?

 

22 hours ago, Martin L said:

 

Option 2 here:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/168452-how-install-opencl-opengl-compatibility-pack-windows-10-a.html

 

PS: Never had to do it, so don't shoot the messenger if it don't work

 

 As per the previous post above.

Scroll down the page and you need 'Option 2' which is how to uninstall the pack

[Mr Standfast]

4 hours ago, MDM said:

 

Just did a bit more experimentation in low light with my wife posing for some facial portraits. I removed all NR and sharpening before applying Denoise at default settings and exposures were perfect out of camera. Plastic skin starts to be a serious problem at ISO3200 (Z7) and ISO12800 (Z9). At ISO3200, the Z9 gives excellent results with no need for any further sharpening (could have been taken at low ISO in good light) whereas the Z7 looks soft even at ISO 1600 and needs more processing.

 

I can see how useful this might be for wedding photography in a dark ceremony venue although I think I would reserve it for a few special images rather than run everything through Denoise which would take a lot of computer processing time even with a fast machine and consume a lot of storage as the DNGs are well over 200MB.

 

The quality of the results are definitely camera-dependent as well as being subject-dependent but overall very impressive.

 

 

👍

[Johnnie5]

When Denoise was first introduced my computer was taking 15 minutes for one photo.  I had been waiting for the price of graphics cards to come down in price to buy a new one but once I saw what Denoise could do I broke down and bought a new graphics card.  I went with one of Adobe recommendations and bought and MSI RTX 3060 12gb and the processing times were reduced to 15 seconds, so well worth it.  I've used Denoise on over a hundred photos, I like how it seems to slightly sharpen the photos.  I get 151 MB files with a Canon 5D4 from 67MB.