Clarification of property

[Danni]

Hi, this is my first question! And it's in regard to property. I'm assuming property covers possessions, so where do we draw the line?  For eg, I have some pics of hot air balloons. There are no brand names on them, but they obviously belong to someone. So would I answer property as yes and release as no?

Thanks 🙂

[gvallee]

While not directly related to the exact topic Harry, this exercise reminded me of an oddity years ago. Is it still the case, I don't know.

 

I once queried Alamy why one of my images had been selected when Measures clearly showed that the client had filtered his search by 'Property release = Yes'. I had no such release because there was no property in the image. Alamy replied that in case a release is not needed (because there is no property), then the default is Yes. 

 

I shall add that I do not recall if it was for property or for persons. Perhaps both.

[Nigel Kirby]

sorry should have been - No to release and yes to property as spacecadet says.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Nigel Kirby

[meanderingemu]

7 hours ago, Danni said:

Hi, this is my first question! And it's in regard to property. I'm assuming property covers possessions, so where do we draw the line?  For eg, I have some pics of hot air balloons. There are no brand names on them, but they obviously belong to someone. So would I answer property as yes and release as no?

Thanks 🙂

 

 

You answer as you seem fit to protect yourself from legal repercussions.  I am more risk averse so i rarely put "No" as "Is there property?", eg. "how do i know if the name of this specific hybrid flower was registered and entails special permission?" and let the client make the decision for commercial use, as this is not my level of expertise.  Same for if there people. 

 

I never have releases for goods. 

 

 

If i want to limit usage i then use "Editorial only" field

Edited October 28, 2021 by meanderingemu

[spacecadet]

12 minutes ago, Nigel Kirby said:

No to both

I think you mean "yes" and "no".

[CarloBo]

8 hours ago, Danni said:

Hi, this is my first question! And it's in regard to property. I'm assuming property covers possessions, so where do we draw the line?  For eg, I have some pics of hot air balloons. There are no brand names on them, but they obviously belong to someone. So would I answer property as yes and release as no?

Thanks 🙂

It doesn't really matter that there's no brand name, an object can be recognized by its shape, design etc. Think about Le Corbusier furniture.

I should add that if someone wants to sue you because your selling pics of their property, it doesn't really matter the box you check on the image manager or if you restrict to Editorial only.

Edited October 28, 2021 by CarloBo
edit

[Joseph Clemson]

Hot air balloons will almost inevitably have some form of graphic design or logo on them and that will constitute property. Property sometimes refers to ownweship (eg. a pet) but more often to some aspect of intellectual property. I may own a Rolls-Royce but I couldn't use a photograph of it to help sell some other product, though I could use it to illustrate a genuine news story.

 

For myself, I almost always put property = yes and release = no. That way the onus is on the buyer to establish if they need to get releases for their particular use. Since the new contract was insitgated I am also more often also using the 'Sell for editorial only' tick box, as a belt and braces approach to protecting against any issues of transgression of IP.

[Steve F]

In addition to what others have said above. Generic objects with no recognisable brand or distinctive shape I would mark as not being property. I would nearly always mark e.g. a house as being property unless I e.g. zoomed in on a brick wall that couldn't be identified.

[Joseph Clemson]

You have a nice picture of a retriever. If it is your own dog you should produce a signed propety release to enable the picture to be readily used for commercial work. If the dog belongs to a friend you might ask them to sign a property release, but make sure they are aware of ways in which the image might be used and that you have no control over the matter.

[meanderingemu]

11 minutes ago, CarloBo said:

It doesn't really matter that there's no brand name, an object can be recognized by its shape, design etc. Think about Le Corbusier furniture.

I should add that if someone wants to sue you because your selling pics of their property, it doesn't really matter the box you check on the image manager or if you restrict to Editorial only.

 

but what you put will affect your potential liability if someone misused your image.  

[Harry Harrison]

I've never been able to understand the practical difference between the default (i.e. if you don't attend to those questions) which is Property-No, Property Release/NA and the only alternative for all my images (given that I don't have property releases and probably never will have) which would be Property-Yes, Property Release/NA. To the buyer they look the same on the Alamy website where it just states if there is a release or not, it doesn't say whether you think there is property in the image. Would the buyer ever be told this, could it ever matter?

[Danni]

Thank you all for your advice.

 

@Joseph Clemson , yes its my dog so will do as you suggest. I also have some nice pictures of classic cars so I would put property as yes but release as no, and potentially select editorial purposes only. 

[M.Chapman]

4 hours ago, CarloBo said:

 

I should add that if someone wants to sue you because your selling pics of their property, it doesn't really matter the box you check on the image manager or if you restrict to Editorial only.

 

That maybe true, but the contributor should have a stronger defence if they ticked Property-Yes, Release-No, as the fault is then more clearly either with the publisher, (or Alamy or their distributor if they failed to convey this info to the publisher).

 

Mark

[Harry Harrison]

47 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

That maybe true, but the contributor should have a stronger defence if they ticked Property-Yes, Release-No

It all seems a bit hypothetical, I've not read of any actual examples of this on here though I bow to those with a wider experience.  Logically to me it's the 'Release - No' that would be important because that is all the buyer sees - unless 'Property - Yes/No' is conveyed to them at some stage of the buying process, and no one has suggested to me that is the case though I have asked the question. Given also that sometimes 'Property' is not clear-cut, so which particular 'Property' in the image is there not a release for? I've wondered in the past if those questions only really need answering if there IS property and you DO have releases because 'No release' is the default. 

[M.Chapman]

14 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

Given also that sometimes 'Property' is not clear-cut, so which particular 'Property' in the image is there not a release for? I've wondered in the past if those questions only really need answering if there IS property and you DO have releases because 'No release' is the default. 

 

Release = Yes should only be set if the contributor has release(s) for ALL the property in the image. I'm sure that's stated in an Alamy FAQ or blog somewhere.

 

14 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

Logically to me it's the 'Release - No' that would be important because that is all the buyer sees - unless 'Property - Yes/No' is conveyed to them at some stage of the buying process, and no one has suggested to me that is the case though I have asked the question.

 

I agree, the buyer doesn't appear to see how we have answered the Property Yes/No question. However, we don't get to answer the Property release Yes/No question in AIM unless we say Property=Yes. So this pair of questions only really seem to be there to capture the Property=Yes, Release=Yes combination. But I can see, from the downloaded CSV file, that answers to both questions seem to be recorded. I must check what gets recorded if I leave them at the default as I don't think I have any examples of that.

 

Mark

Edited October 29, 2021 by M.Chapman

[Harry Harrison]

 

10 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

But I can see, from the downloaded CSV file, that answers to both questions seem to be recorded. I must check what gets recorded if I leave them at the default as I don't currently have any examples of that.

 

Yes, it was the downloaded file that I was working from to reach my tentative conclusions, the defaults for the two columns of the csv are:

 

Is there property in the image? - N

Property release - NA

 

Similarly for model releases:

 

Number of people - 0

Model release - NA

 

So if someone ignores the 'optional' fields it will still display 'No' to both model and property releases under the image.

 

I suppose it could be possible that there is some hidden field that registers if a contributor has made an attempt to edit those fields but it seems unlikelly.

 

It's some time since I last looked at this so I'll upload some more images and double-check but I'm fairly sure this is correct since if there is obviously no property or no people in an image then I don't bother going there.

[meanderingemu]

2 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

 

 

Yes, it was the downloaded file that I was working from to reach my tentative conclusions, the defaults for the two columns of the csv are:

 

Is there property in the image? - N

Property release - NA

 

Similarly for model releases:

 

Number of people - 0

Model release - NA

 

So if someone ignores the 'optional' fields it will still display 'No' to both model and property releases under the image.

 

I suppose it could be possible that there is some hidden field that registers if a contributor has made an attempt to edit those fields but it seems unlikelly.

 

It's some time since I last looked at this so I'll upload some more images and double-check but I'm fairly sure this is correct since if there is obviously no property or no people in an image then I don't bother going there.

 

 

this was confirmed by Alamy when we went through the worries of the perceived higher risk of the new contract.  Only changing it to "No Property" changes it for the end client.  

[Harry Harrison]

3 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

Only changing it to "No Property" changes it for the end client.  

Sorry, don't understand what you mean. it's 'No property' anyway, the default.

[meanderingemu]

30 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Sorry, don't understand what you mean. it's 'No property' anyway, the default.

I was told the default is that there is property, and you specifically need to enter "no" to indicate there is none. 

[Harry Harrison]

10 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

I was told the default is that there is property, and you specifically need to enter "no" to indicate there is none. 

OK, thanks, I'll check that overnight on some images.

[Harry Harrison]

On 28/10/2021 at 20:24, M.Chapman said:

I must check what gets recorded if I leave them at the default as I don't think I have any examples of that.

 

 

On 29/10/2021 at 14:30, meanderingemu said:

I was told the default is that there is property, and you specifically need to enter "no" to indicate there is none. 

 

Just to confirm that I uploaded a small batch of RM images and that the information that I posted above is correct, namely 'No property' is the default, so:

 

Is there property in the image? - N

Property release - NA

 

Similarly for model releases:

 

Number of people - 0

Model release - NA

 

Given that it seems the buyer doesn't get to see whether you think there is property or not this would seem to be the 'failsafe' option and if you don't enter anything in those optional fields it will still be clear to the buyer that you have no releases. It is true that the number of people is a filter in the main search however.

 

Just as an aside, my images went through immediately late at night and were available for sale on the Alamy site the following morning. However it needed another night to pass before the csv download included them.

 

 

[M.Chapman]

So, if I understand you correctly, there appears to be no benefit in completing the Property yes/no field, unless you have a property release that you want to declare? Nevertheless, the OCD side of my character probably means I won't be able to avoid answering Property = Yes, Release = No for most images.

 

Mark

Edited November 1, 2021 by M.Chapman

[Harry Harrison]

1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

So, if I understand you correctly, there appears to be no benefit in completing the Property yes/no field

Well, more that I was trying to discover what that benefit might be, I was thinking that maybe someone would chip in and offer a theory, or even definitive proof. Certainly from the answers I've seen I don't think that it is widely perceived that there is absolutely no point if the image(s) have no property and no releases, or no people and no releases. I was also expecting someone might explain to me that of course the buyer does see whether you think there is property, or how many people you think there are, but not so far anyway. Not exactly a topic that interests people probably.

[Martin L]

58 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Well, more that I was trying to discover what that benefit might be, I was thinking that maybe someone would chip in and offer a theory, or even definitive proof. Certainly from the answers I've seen I don't think that it is widely perceived that there is absolutely no point if the image(s) have no property and no releases, or no people and no releases. I was also expecting someone might explain to me that of course the buyer does see whether you think there is property, or how many people you think there are, but not so far anyway. Not exactly a topic that interests people probably.

If you answer 'No' to Property Release does it still come up with 'NA' or 'No'?

Maybe 'NA' is just effectively 'not filled in' to distinguish it from 'Yes' and 'No'

If that is the case it maybe better to actually still enter 'No' in the field to show a positive action that you definitely have no property release

Edited November 1, 2021 by Martin L

[Harry Harrison]

4 minutes ago, Martin L said:

If you answer 'No' to Property Release does it still come up with 'NA' or 'No'?

Maybe 'NA' is just effectively 'not filled in' to distinguish it from 'Yes' and 'No'

Yes, it stays the same, makes no difference.

[Martin L]

Thanks Harry

I'm theoried out 🙃