A Statement from The BPPA on the role of press photographers during crisis.

[Steve F]

3 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Interesting Danish article showing how lens compression from the use of long lenses can mislead (and provoke?) the general public:

 

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2020-04-26-hvor-taet-er-folk-paa-hinanden-disse-billeder-er-taget-samtidig-men-viser-to

 

My Danish isn't so good, but yes, its amazing how much compression you can get with a long telephoto lens (something sadly missing from my collection... currently). I wonder which ones got submitted to the media, or may be the author was just making a point....

[meanderingemu]

2 minutes ago, Harry Harrison said:

Interesting Danish article showing how lens compression from the use of long lenses can mislead (and provoke?) the general public:

 

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2020-04-26-hvor-taet-er-folk-paa-hinanden-disse-billeder-er-taget-samtidig-men-viser-to

 

 

the photo is not what would mislead to general public.  

 

If both are captioned  "People shopping, waiting in line respecting 2m distance guidelines"  (as they are) where did the compression mislead?

 

 

 

also the images changes two variables  Angle of view, and focal length,  therefore it is the writer who is misleading with the conclusion..   

[Harry Harrison]

 

 

19 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

the photo is not what would mislead to general public.  

I think that with respect you might possibly have misunderstood. This article and the photographs that accompany it is about how photographs taken with long lenses can make people seem closer together than they are, the photographer has deliberately taken pictures to illustrate this and though I don't speak or read Danish I think trhis is made clear. Pictures like this (not these pictures!) are routinely used to illustrate articles about how people are not respecting social distancing, Ian has posted one above but they are all over the place. This seems very unfair on the subjects as they are so easily identifiable. It also seems to call into question this strange statement by the BPPA:

 

"The misconception that telephoto lenses in some way give a distorted and more crowded view of a scene is as bizarre as it is ill-informed."

[meanderingemu]

1 minute ago, Harry Harrison said:

 

 

I think that with respect you might possibly have misunderstood. This article and the photographs that accompany it is about how photographs taken with long lenses can make people seem closer together than they are, the photographer has deliberately taken pictures to illustrate this and though I don't speak or read Danish I think trhis is made clear. Pictures like this (not these pictures!) are routinely used to illustrate articles about how people are not respecting social distancing, Ian has posted one above but they are all over the place. This seems very unfair on the subjects as they are so easily identifiable. It also seems to call into question this strange statement by the BPPA:

 

"The misconception that telephoto lenses in some way give a distorted and more crowded view of a scene is as bizarre as it is ill-informed."

 

 

how is it misleading if properly captioned?  the one misleading is the editor, not the photograph... and again not one example changed only one variable, they changed both Focal length and angle of capture.  so the article author is the one who is misleading, not the photograph.

 

 

[Harry Harrison]

1 minute ago, meanderingemu said:

how is it misleading if properly captioned?

That's the point, they are not properly captioned in the papers, see Ian's example but there are many more.  He has used a different lens to show that these (willing) subjects are not close together even though they appear to be so in the long lens photos. Yes, of course it is the editor that makes the decision to use the picture inappropriately.

[meanderingemu]

1 minute ago, Harry Harrison said:

That's the point, they are not properly captioned in the papers, see Ian's example but there are many more.  He has used a different lens to show that these (willing) subjects are not close together even though they appear to be so in the long lens photos. Yes, of course it is the editor that makes the decision to use the picture inappropriately.

 

and that is my point, all the attacks i have seen have been directed to the photographers.  Most time we do not control how our work is being used.  

[Harry Harrison]

20 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

and that is my point, all the attacks i have seen have been directed to the photographers

That might be your point but I am not attacking any photographers

[Steve F]

I'm not saying I totally disagree with the points made above. But what would be the point of using a long telephoto lens to make a photo that compresses the distance people appear to be from each other when queuing during social distancing? What story would the photographer be trying to tell with this picture?

Edited April 28, 2020 by Steve F

[M.Chapman]

1 hour ago, meanderingemu said:

 

and that is my point, all the attacks i have seen have been directed to the photographers.  Most time we do not control how our work is being used.  

 

The photographer (not the editor) is the one who was actually there, and they should be well aware of the compression effect of using a long lens on the scene they are photographing. Ideally press photographers would always produce images that accurately reflect the scene rather than a distorted view of it, but then those images might not sell newspapers...

 

Mark

Edited April 28, 2020 by M.Chapman

[Steve F]

1 minute ago, M.Chapman said:

 

The photographer (not the editor) is the one who was actually there, and they should be well aware of the compression effect of using a long lens on the scene they are photographing. Ideally press photographers would always produce images that accurately reflect  the scene rather than a distorted view of it., but then those images might not sell newspapers...

 

Mark

+1

[M.Chapman]

4 minutes ago, Steve F said:

I'm not saying I totally disagree with the points made above. But what would be the point of using a long telephoto lens to make a photo that compresses the distance people appear to be from each other when queuing during social distancing? What story are you trying to tell with this picture?

 

That people are breaking the social distancing rules when they perhaps aren’t, because that’s a more saleable image/story.. The use of such images and video is widespread at the moment.

 

Mark

Edited April 28, 2020 by M.Chapman

[Steve F]

1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

 

That people are breaking the social distancing rules when they perhaps aren’t, because that’s a more saleable story.. The use of such images and video is widespread at the moment.

 

Mark

 

I know, was trying to make the point.... 👍

Edited April 28, 2020 by Steve F

[M.Chapman]

Unfortunately it's becoming a bit Catch-22 vicious circle. The images used in the media have sometimes been used to show the rules being broken with clearly identifiable faces. So now some folks don't like being photographed and will direct abuse at the photographer, so now a long lens has to be used which may distort the scene...

 

Mark

[losdemas]

3 hours ago, Steve F said:

 

My Danish isn't so good, but yes, its amazing how much compression you can get with a long telephoto lens (something sadly missing from my collection... currently). I wonder which ones got submitted to the media, or may be the author was just making a point....

 

Mine is non-existent! Try Google Translate or if that doesn't work directly in your browser of choice, install an add-on that'll do the job or go here.

[sooth]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by sooth

[M.Chapman]

BPPA - "The misconception that telephoto lenses in some way give a distorted and more crowded view of a scene is as bizarre as it is ill-informed."

 

What a strange statement. Telephoto lenses cause depth compression which makes items that lie generally along the direction of view look closer together (or crowded). It has no effect on items that lie generally along a line at 90 degrees to the direction of view.

 

Mark

Edited April 28, 2020 by M.Chapman

[geogphotos]

Just now, M.Chapman said:

BPPA - "The misconception that telephoto lenses in some way give a distorted and more crowded view of a scene is as bizarre as it is ill-informed."

 

What a strange statement. Telephoto lenses cause foreshortening which does make items that lie generally along the direction of view look closer together (or crowded). It has no effect on items that lie generally along a line at 90 degrees to the direction of view.

 

Mark

 

 

It is this sort of thing that I find disingenuous.

 

In the extreme.

 

Respect is earned. Rags such as the Mail trash whoever they want - immigrants, single mothers, lazy workers, blah blah - and I don't suppose that Press photographers are really so naive that they don't know what is in demand. 

 

Respect is earned - look at the comment and sales reports of Iain Masterton - he is respected by those he meets and does the job properly and ethically. 

 

Come on! 

 

 

[meanderingemu]

3 hours ago, Steve F said:

I'm not saying I totally disagree with the points made above. But what would be the point of using a long telephoto lens to make a photo that compresses the distance people appear to be from each other when queuing during social distancing? What story would the photographer be trying to tell with this picture?

 

keeping social distancing 

3 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

 

The photographer (not the editor) is the one who was actually there, and they should be well aware of the compression effect of using a long lens on the scene they are photographing. Ideally press photographers would always produce images that accurately reflect the scene rather than a distorted view of it, but then those images might not sell newspapers...

 

Mark

 

 

again, if the image is captioned as "People waiting in line with 2m distance" where did the photographer who was trying to keep distance misleading?

[geogphotos]

8 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

 

 

 

 

again, if the image is captioned as "People waiting in line with 2m distance" where did the photographer who was trying to keep distance misleading?

 

 

If the subjects of the photograph were 2ms apart then the photographer has failed in not showing the truth. 

 

1) Now that could have been accidental .

2) It could have been have poor photography.

3) Or it could be just what the photographer knew the newspapers wanted. 

 

The end result is that the photographer submitted the picture 

 

Nothing happened by chance.

[M.Chapman]

41 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

 

keeping social distancing 

 

 

again, if the image is captioned as "People waiting in line with 2m distance" where did the photographer who was trying to keep distance misleading?

Because he failed to take a picture that effectively illustrates social distancing...

 

Mark

[geogphotos]

Little Arrows

 

 

 

 

[Steve F]

1 hour ago, meanderingemu said:

 

keeping social distancing 

 

 

again, if the image is captioned as "People waiting in line with 2m distance" where did the photographer who was trying to keep distance misleading?

 

It doesn't matter how a picture is captioned to a large extent. The newspaper can write any sort of interpretation based on what the photo appears to be showing. The only reason for using a long telephoto lens to capture people queuing during the pandemic is either to keep distance from them and/or to compress the spacing between the people in the image. When the 2m rule is being drummed into us constantly, and a picture is taken making it appear that the people are much closer than this, and anyone in the business knows there has been a lot of outrage over people breaking social distancing and photos of this have been published. Well...

Edited April 28, 2020 by Steve F

[Julie Edwards]

It is NOT the actual lens that leads to the compression - that is the misconception!

 

It is actually the view point. (yes the lens enables a more distant viewpoint but it is not the physics of the lens that does the compression). I.e. Shoot with a 50mm and a 300mm from the same viewpoint and crop the 50mm image to match and the perspective will be exactly the same . 

 

There are plenty of articles that explain this.

 

Photography 103 (there are a few things to learn first so its not a 101 😉) 

[Julie Edwards]

I should add that in all cases - the photographer is able to mis-lead using any type of lens by choosing his view point and selection of view..

[M.Chapman]

On 29/04/2020 at 10:25, Julie Edwards said:

It is NOT the actual lens that leads to the compression - that is the misconception!

 

It is actually the view point. (yes the lens enables a more distant viewpoint but it is not the physics of the lens that does the compression). I.e. Shoot with a 50mm and a 300mm from the same viewpoint and crop the 50mm image to match and the perspective will be exactly the same . 

 

Good point. It's the cropping of a small part from much larger scene that removes the information about how far away the "crowded" people actually are. But then using a telephoto does force the selection of only a small part of the scene and discards the context.... No different to a ruthless crop on a wide angle shot.

 

Mark

Edited April 30, 2020 by M.Chapman