Sign in to follow this  
Rob C

ID on car and motorcyle needed please. Tough one!

Recommended Posts

So, ID need on these two vehicles. I'm fairly hopefull on the bike, but the car.....? 

M5MRYC.jpg

M5MRYY.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Rob C said:

So, ID need on these two vehicles. I'm fairly hopefull on the bike, but the car.....? 

M5MRYC.jpg

M5MRYY.jpg

 

Would you have them any bigger?

 

The bike is obviously wartime, so best chance is an M20 or WM20 (W for war) BSA. But there's a funny shape or a funny shadow on the primary chain cover.

Also it has no army id number on the tank, but a pre-war civilian paint. This was normal in the beginning of the war, but very few have remained that way. Maybe some that have not left Britain. Also if it is originally a prewar one, it usually is referred to as an M20 not a WM.  In between there has been a run designated KM, which I believe all went overseas.

The rider is in dispatch gear. His rear bags are lacking though.

However there have been different motorcycles in the same time all produced more or less in the same vein, when BSA could not cope. Their factories have also been bombed of course.

 

wim

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with Wim, the bike looks to be a BSA W-M20, complete with black out shield to the headlight. Lots of photos of these online - you can compare detail by detail to be sure, plus much detail on Wikipedia or post a hi res version somewhere if you need further confirmation.

Again , like Wim, not a clue with the car ...

Edited by TeeCee
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Wim and TeeCee. Very interesting and useful information. I think the car will remain a mystery for a while.

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Rob C said:

Thanks Wim and TeeCee. Very interesting and useful information. I think the car will remain a mystery for a while.

Rob

 

Any idea about when the image was taken?

Could it be the car is not British? The construction of the door somehow has a French ring to it.

The grille is pretty distinct especially the lower part. There's also some kind of badge.

Date? 1924-32?

I would be very interested in a higher or full resolution image of the bike.  There seems to be something funny with the front stay of the frame also.

Mine was a '52 btw but it was olive drab on the inside of the covers.

 

wim

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, wiskerke said:

 

Any idea about when the image was taken?

Could it be the car is not British? The construction of the door somehow has a French ring to it.

 

wim

 

 

There's a "no smoking" sign in English. The number plates look like the layout we used till at least the 70s- silver on black.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may have a British registration but it just doesn't look British to me. It has more of a continental look. Just a feeling.

 

Alan

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple more of the bike:

M5MRYT.jpgM5MRYX.jpg

 

The photo of the car is taken in UK, but I don't have a date. I think the badge on the front is an early AA (Automobile Association) badge. Other than that, and the fact that the car has obviously had a bit of a prang, I'm in the dark about it.

Edited by Rob C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Inchiquin said:

It may have a British registration but it just doesn't look British to me. It has more of a continental look. Just a feeling.

 

Alan

 

 

I agree with Wim and Alan about the car, it looks continental. Wim's suggestion of French feels right. It might be a one-off special of course, then it could be from anywhere. There were a lot based on Austin 7 with sporty bodies but it looks too long a bonnet (hood) for that. It sort of looks familiar but I can't put my finger on it.

Edited by Martin P Wilson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Inchiquin said:

It may have a British registration but it just doesn't look British to me. It has more of a continental look. Just a feeling.

 

Alan

 

Got it, Wim meant the car door, not the garage door. Der.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not an M20 because it has overhead valves. That confirms my idea that it's a civilian pre-war machine pressed into service.

Still really difficult to see which one it is without a high res image. It may even not be a BSA because that configuration with two separate push rod tubes is extremely rare. The early Gold stars looked a bit like that. The blue Stars had them, but in a totally different block.

It could very well be a Norton ES2 or a Model 18.

 

wim

(if you want to send me a full res image, my email adress is easy: wimATwiskerkeDOTcom)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just gone through The Complete Catalogue of British Cars 1895-1975 and there is nothing in it remotely like the car in the picture. The picture car has several unusual features which may suggest a one-off special and also make it rather early:

  • the bodywork in front of the scuttle appears to have compound curves, very unusual for cars of this period, it blends in to the compound curved radiator grill, at this time the radiator was usually visible
  • it has no external radiator cap
  • It appears not to have front brakes, or if it does they are tiny and appear smaller than those at the rear,
  • It appears to have a long sump or low gearbox casing. Perhaps engine not from a car?

 

It looks familar but I do not know why. BTW the badge may be the marque badge rather than AA, many builders put their badging on the grill like that.

 

Sorry can't suggest more. I am intrigued to find out now!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Martin P Wilson said:

I have just gone through The Complete Catalogue of British Cars 1895-1975 and there is nothing in it remotely like the car in the picture. The picture car has several unusual features which may suggest a one-off special and also make it rather early:

  • the bodywork in front of the scuttle appears to have compound curves, very unusual for cars of this period, it blends in to the compound curved radiator grill, at this time the radiator was usually visible
  • it has no external radiator cap
  • It appears not to have front brakes, or if it does they are tiny and appear smaller than those at the rear,
  • It appears to have a long sump or low gearbox casing. Perhaps engine not from a car?

 

It looks familar but I do not know why. BTW the badge may be the marque badge rather than AA, many builders put their badging on the grill like that.

 

Sorry can't suggest more. I am intrigued to find out now!

 

 

My guess is that the front brakes are there, but not very big. If the total weight of the car is not that big and the velocity not that high, it's not such a problem. Compare them to the motorcycle pictures. The size is about the same. The wheel of the car seem to have a larger diameter though.

The front mudguards do look very British. The door and that radiator rim not that much.

Not sure if the radiator grill is curved. Could be it's just flat.

Interestingly some motorcycle manufacturers have also built sports cars: Brough Superior; BSA.

 

The form of the lower part of the radiator grill is that of a 1916-ish Bugatti. Bugatti also used that sort of flanged edges that the door has.

 

wim

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, wiskerke said:

 

My guess is that the front brakes are there, but not very big. If the total weight of the car is not that big and the velocity not that high, it's not such a problem. Compare them to the motorcycle pictures. The size is about the same. The wheel of the car seem to have a larger diameter though.

The front mudguards do look very British. The door and that radiator rim not that much.

Not sure if the radiator grill is curved. Could be it's just flat.

Interestingly some motorcycle manufacturers have also built sports cars: Brough Superior; BSA.

 

The form of the lower part of the radiator grill is that of a 1916-ish Bugatti. Bugatti also used that sort of flanged edges that the door has.

 

wim

 

 

The flanged door also appeared on many of the British cars in the catalogue, at least from the period before WW2, especially early on. I thought it might be pre 1920 as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, wiskerke said:

The form of the lower part of the radiator grill is that of a 1916-ish Bugatti. Bugatti also used that sort of flanged edges that the door has.

 

 

My very first thought as soon as I saw the radiator was Bugatti. But I haven't been able to find one that matches.

 

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Inchiquin said:

 

My very first thought as soon as I saw the radiator was Bugatti. But I haven't been able to find one that matches.

 

Alan

 

 

There may be parts missing.

 

wim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, wiskerke said:

 

There may be parts missing.

 

 

Yes but that radiator is very distinctive.

 

Alan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also the long straight rear section of the front mudguard is distinctive. Nearly all others are curved.

 

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing has turned up on any research I've done, so I might send a copy over to the Classic Car magazines to see if they can help.

Thanks for all your help, and please let me know if you find anything.

Rob.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe it is a special solitaire racing car ? 

Rob, maybe you can keyword the picture with a basic set of keywords, then it would become available in a better resolution? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good idea. So now I've put some basic keywords on to the car and bike images so they are more accesible. Hope this may help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It certainly looks like a Bugatti grill. If it is it will be pre-WW1 or immediately after when they built some Type 22s from pre-war parts. By the 1920s most Bugattis seem to be using louvred side panels, larger front brakes and even windscreens.

 

It might be a Type 13 (or a variant) or a Type  22 but the wings/fenders are not typical.

 

Have to wait for the larger images.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, GS-Images said:

I don't know much about vintage cars but I've done some looking around, and have concentrated on the rounded radiator that the OP's image has. There are a few vintage cars I've found images of from a company called Sage (never heard of them myself), that have a similar rounded radiator with a notch either at the top or bottom, that looks a similar shape to the radiator in the OP's image. I've tried to find a Sage car that looks the same in other ways, with no luck yet.

 

This page shows the notch I'm talking about (not the right car though)...

 

http://www.history-of-cars.com/php/sage/1906-24hp.php

 

The lights look similar too, with that "hanging down part" below the actual light, which could be a trait of that make's lights. Sorry for not being very technical about it.  :)

 

Geoff.

 

The notch in Rob's car is where the hand crank goes. It's a functional notch. The one in the Sage is an ornamental gimmick.

 

wim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I can see the larger preview on Alamy with less watermarkingseveral things are more obvious:

  • There is a (makers?) badge on the radiator shell but not possible to see whose.
  • There seems to be a radiator filler just behind the radiator shell suggesting it has been pushed back in the accident.
  • The lights are electric, and the mounts are similar to some photos of Type 17s (but every picture other seemed slightly different!
  • There were brackets for a full windscreen, Bugatti did not do windscreens (or doors for that matter) for many years, although many post WW1 ones had small fly screens
  • It looks to have a longer tail and could be a four-seater or a 2+1 (some inc Bugatti did them)

I think it might be a Type 17 Bugatti (either side of WW1) or perhaps 22 (17 derivative) but I don't think earlier. The problem in that period cars were hand built and to customers desires so that there was not a single, definitive version. But the headlight mounting, the grill shape, wings/fenders and boat tailed body all featured on one or more versions of the 17. I have searched http://www.automobileweb.net/index.php?page=type17torpedo            and not been able to come up with a clear answer. I have spent too long already, but it was fascinating, I know a lot more about Bugattis now!

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Martin that’s brilliant research. Thanks very much. I’ll be digging deep in to Bugatti archives to see what I can come up with.

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this