LBIPP an eye opener

[Paulstw]

 

 

there is a massive amount of peer-to-peer support within the pro photography sector

 

 

km

 

Appreciate the input Keith. 

 

I guess plugging away for now will be acceptable. I've decided that going for LBIPP won't be financially viable. At the cost of nearly £550, I reckon that money would be better spent elsewhere. A second body or used to upgrade my 70-200 f4 IS. I'll think about it. 

 

 

Not sure how you've got the figure of £550, unless something has changed, joining is about £100, your licentiate submission can be done on 10x8 prints (it used to be 20X16 mounted, which cost quite a bit). I think you'd benefit from joining something, just getting to know a few people, and picking up a few business tips would be priceless at this stage of your professional working life.

 

 

A provisional membership is £195. I would need to take out Public Liability and Professional Indemnity insurance as per the rules and that was £250 p.a off the quote I got. You then have your qualification assessment submission fee of £120.

[RedSnapper]

"I would need to take out Public Liability and Professional Indemnity insurance"

 

which is part of the cost of being a pro photographer..

 

km

[Paulstw]

I don't doubt it, however, flirting around the outskirts of the industry dipping my toe in every now and then to get a feel for it, has shown that having a day job seems to be having an impact on my chances of every reaching that protog status. It almost feels like having to run two professions off one salary until the other starts making money. Can't make the money without spending it first, and to be honest it's all I feel I've been doing lately with photography. 

 

I appreciate that running a business has it's overheads and costs associated, however, usually there's some return. The success of that business depends on the quality of the goods and services you produce, and I think I have to stand up and realise one day that the pictures are just not good enough, or that they aren't reaching the right people. 

 

It brings me back to the reason I created this post. A vicious circle I find myself in. Can't create good work out of self learning and assessment all the time, and you're only feedback is lack of sales. That's why I felt further guidance was needed. BIPP or the like sounded like a good avenue, and one I might still take (later) 

 

I'm determined enough to keep going though. 

[Paulstw]

The small agency that gets me to games has insurance for all the guys that shoot. I've asked that question already and been assured that it's under control. Still would like it for myself though. Going to sort it out this week. Cancelled my website with imagefile.com as it was just a placeholder for wedding pics and with it being £17.99 a month it's not something I'm really going to continue with as weddings are a nightmare. 

 

There was that story a few weeks ago about the NFL player that snapped some guys 400 2.8 in half landing on it. Kris Boyd of Rangers nearly ran into me on Saturday. I could smell his BO. 

[spacecadet]

Never mind the insurance. The BIPP is for professionals. Having a day job won't cut it. I have no other income and was a student member years ago, but I couldn't satisfy the entry criteria now.

You might try the RPS.

[Paulstw]

It begs to ask the million dollar question? Who gets to be classed as a professional? Is it technical ability or earnings that define?

 

Apparently due to my tearsheets alone I'd have a good chance in the commercial category, however, you need to be earning from that genre, and be able to prove it. They say that you need to submit 30-40 images on disk to submit in the first instance to even be considered. I could do that no bother, but I haven't sold 30-40 images in that category. 

 

If having a day job doesn't cut it these days in the industry, then surely your not expected to just drop everything and suddenly proclaim that you're a protog? 

[Guest]

It begs to ask the million dollar question? Who gets to be classed as a professional? Is it technical ability or earnings that define?

 

Apparently due to my tearsheets alone I'd have a good chance in the commercial category, however, you need to be earning from that genre, and be able to prove it. They say that you need to submit 30-40 images on disk to submit in the first instance to even be considered. I could do that no bother, but I haven't sold 30-40 images in that category. 

 

If having a day job doesn't cut it these days in the industry, then surely your not expected to just drop everything and suddenly proclaim that you're a protog? 

 

Generally you are classed as a pro by most organisations, and tax authorities, if you earn the majority of your income from the work. Simple criteria. Technical ability has nothing to do with the classifcation, just helps to keep the money rolling in.

 

You said earlier about self learning not being enough. Well I'm sorry but you won't get far in professional photography without continued self-learning. Not only about the technical aspect but also about marketing and business planning.

[spacecadet]

I simply meant 'cut it' as in 'satisfy the BIPP admission criteria', nothing else. It's the BIPP, after all. The RPS doesn't concern itself with that.

[RedSnapper]

"you won't get far in professional photography without continued self-learning."

 

Every day, and on every job i do, i learn something new

 

 

km

[Paulstw]

 

It begs to ask the million dollar question? Who gets to be classed as a professional? Is it technical ability or earnings that define?

 

Apparently due to my tearsheets alone I'd have a good chance in the commercial category, however, you need to be earning from that genre, and be able to prove it. They say that you need to submit 30-40 images on disk to submit in the first instance to even be considered. I could do that no bother, but I haven't sold 30-40 images in that category. 

 

If having a day job doesn't cut it these days in the industry, then surely your not expected to just drop everything and suddenly proclaim that you're a protog? 

 

Generally you are classed as a pro by most organisations, and tax authorities, if you earn the majority of your income from the work. Simple criteria. Technical ability has nothing to do with the classifcation, just helps to keep the money rolling in.

 

You said earlier about self learning not being enough. Well I'm sorry but you won't get far in professional photography without continued self-learning. Not only about the technical aspect but also about marketing and business planning.

 

 

Cheers Geoff, I should have said the correct path in self learning. The NUJ seem to offer a great range of training if you're a member. I think some sort of mentoring would help. I have no idea if I'm even doing the right thing with news pics. I just capture what I think will sell. I hit the mark sometimes, but a lot goes in the bin. 

 

The sports thing has been great because the guys that took us all on, train us on what sells and the key points to a good sports shot. That info was totally invaluable and saved a lot of heartache and wasted time. I took to it like a duck to water and love it. I still have a passion for the news stuff though, and would feel cheated walking away from it now. I feel there's a lot more to give and I can only go so far with being self taught. That was my point I think. 

[Andrew Spiers]

Paul,

 

I think the main thing is to focus. If sport is your love, concentrate on that for the moment. Forget news.

 

When I started, I only did music photography. Now I am comfortable with it, then I am working on more general news. When starting in a new field there is so much to learn that you can loose focus on what you are doing. 

 

I know you are doing football at the moment but expand your range into other sports. Going indoors for something like basketball brings up a whole different set of challenges. 

 

If that is your chosen field, that have a looking at joining something like the SJA - http://www.sportsjournalists.co.uk/

 

Andrew

[Paulstw]

Thanks Andrew. I'm certainly gearing my twitter stuff towards sports/football at the moment. We gets shouts for all types, Glasgow Gymnastics is up for grabs as well as the basketball and young football. I just missed the chance of the MTV EMA due to missing out because of my mobile signal. Strict licensing in the football stuff means I can't sell a single image from footy and news really has been my earner of late. 

[Andrew Spiers]

Paul,

 

Think around the problem. Whilst shooting the top leagues are glamorous, like you said they are so tied up in red tape that it becomes impossible to sell.

 

Same in music. Try and shoot one of the big bands and you get presented with a ridiculous release that virtually prevents you from selling. I tend to avoid these now and shoot the smaller / more established bands. Less glamorous but makes money. Bands like the Proclaimers. I was the only photographer when they visited Reading and ended up with a picture in the Telegraph.

 

Shoot the lower leagues. My local paper has loads of photos of Sunday league matches. Approach the non-league papers.

 

Think projects - unusual grounds, stories of clubs, older players. Try and turn them into magazine articles. Have a look at some of RedSnappers work. For example, the story of the Morris Minor - how can you do that for football?

 

You will then find you are crossing into news more and build your experience from there.

[Paulstw]

It's hard to think about entering into this industry with news stories like this 

 

http://www.nuj.org.uk/news/morale-at-rock-bottom-as-johnston-press-announces-more/

 

It's equally as bad when you realise you're essentially part of the problem in the shift from full time staffers to user generated content. 

[RedSnapper]

which is why you'll find it hard to get advice and support from the very people whose livelyhoods you are  trying to undermine

 

km

[Paulstw]

which is why you'll find it hard to get advice and support from the very people whose livelyhoods you are  trying to undermine

 

km

 

The very reason I never ask. 

[radharcimages]

"I would need to take out Public Liability and Professional Indemnity insurance"

 

which is part of the cost of being a pro photographer..

 

km

 

and it always amazes me that people supplying agencies with images dont have basic indemnity insurance as well as 3rd party.

Madness.

[Paulstw]

Blame for that has to come from the top down I'm afraid. When I first started shooting for news I was never advised to take out insurances of any kind. Even years after changing over to different agencies it was never a requirement. If you are never advised at the outset, how are you meant to learn about it? It's only now that I'm doing more work that I see it being a requirement but I've managed to get this far without it being needed (luckily)

 

I'm a wee bit angry with that to be fair because had something happened out and about I was ill prepared for any outcome. Maybe that's what needs to change in the industry.

 

If someone said, this is what is required of you, I'd dot the i's and cross the t's as soon as I could. Now I just look like a tool to industry professionals There's simply no guidance for anyone wanting to take this seriously.  

[Mark Baigent]

Why should someone have to teach you that you need insurance?

It would help a lot of photographers to take some very basic business training, sales marketing and apparently basic business practice.

[Andrew Spiers]

Why should someone have to teach you that you need insurance?

 

It would help a lot of photographers to take some very basic business training, sales marketing and apparently basic business practice.

 

+1 

 

This is business knowledge nothing to do with photography.

 

Whenever you start out in a new industry, you put together your business plan, work out what you are going to do, look into tax issue etc etc.

[Martin P Wilson]

Why should someone have to teach you that you need insurance?

 

It would help a lot of photographers to take some very basic business training, sales marketing and apparently basic business practice.

 

Absolutely. Photographers (and writers, artists, designers, ...) need to realise they are in business. They are plenty of very accessible books out there, guides to small business, even photography practice. If you are in business you need to be proactive (how I hate that word...)

[spacecadet]

Deciding about insurance is a matter of logic, not of having or expecting to be told.

If you're in an area where what you do might expose you to liability, you need it. If not, you don't. I'm not, so I don't. I do very little that's distinguishable from the bloke with the I-phone.

[radharcimages]

 

I'm a wee bit angry with that to be fair because had something happened out and about I was ill prepared for any outcome. Maybe that's what needs to change in the industry.

 

If someone said, this is what is required of you, I'd dot the i's and cross the t's as soon as I could. Now I just look like a tool to industry professionals There's simply no guidance for anyone wanting to take this seriously.  

 

Now do you understand my point about people with day jobs? Being told what to do and how to behave is part of some employment culture. Sitting around waiting to be told is even worse.

Going out and finding out about it first before doing it is standard for any small business startup (again go back to my comments and others above about not treating it as any other business).

Try telling the taxman that nobody told you you had to be registered as self employed before you even started lodging images with agencies and see what their response is.

Other people have mentioned the self progression, self learning and networking, thats all part of being in business, nobody will tell you what to do. Its like the difference between school and university, school you have to sit and learn, university its up to you.

 

Dont go blaming the agencies or anything else, did you actually read the agency contract? I mean really _read_ it? After reading did you understand the implications of every section and if not did you ask or seek independent advice?

There are a huge number of business agencies and resources out there to help setting up and running a business but they wont come to you to tell you how to do things.

[Guest]

Deciding about insurance is a matter of logic, not of having or expecting to be told.

If you're in an area where what you do might expose you to liability, you need it. If not, you don't. I'm not, so I don't. I do very little that's distinguishable from the bloke with the I-phone.

 

If you are out and about taking pictures as a part of a business  then any accident or damage caused during that is a matter of professional-based insurance. PL is about £50-60 a year........

 

The bloke with the iphone is presumably not 'working' in a professional capacity.

 

Your money, your risk.

[Paulstw]

Yes I get the information loud and clear. I don't expect anything to come my way. Anything I've gained so far has been off my own back and I don't piggy back anyone for information or ask. Any tips or advice I've ever been given have been off the other persons kindness, of which I've always been grateful and could help in return if I could. 

 

When I picked up a camera I didn't think for one minute that I'd have a registered business or be submitting my first self assessment on my own, however, I have. It's a rolling project for me, of which there is a lot of choice. I am lucky to have a day job to pay for all this expensive equipment because quite frankly I don't know how anyone could afford to set up with nothing. 

 

Insurances make sense, when you are aware that you need them. As I said it's only recently that I've started to investigate it. It makes far more sense to me to get the right cover for what I do and that will take time to contact the relevant insurer. It's the next thing to sort out on my list. As of yet, I've not needed it, because walking about with a camera and taking pics for stock is the same as anyone walking about. However, now that I find myself in a more professional environment, I'll be sure to cover myself. 

 

All this thread was set out to do was try and see if there was a point to qualification, however, it's opened up some useful discussions that have made me put that under the rug for now. 

 

I either continue working full time in IT and have a half jab at photography as a hobby, submitting self assessment when I earn, or take a full leap into photography and cover events, news and sports. From where I'm sitting the Status Quo is not suitable for either parties involved.