Anyone using Nikon Z8 for wildlife here?

[Phil Robinson]

On 18/10/2024 at 10:55, MDM said:

Why use Auto ISO at all? You are allowing the camera to decide something the photographer should be deciding. You lose control over the noise level and dynamic range by using Auto ISO.

I find auto ISO very useful and use it nearly all the time. Unless you use you camera in full manual mode, it is always going to make one decision for you, either ISO, shutter speed or aperture. I nearly always use manual exposure mode but auto ISO so I have full control over aperture and shutter speed, and if I can see the ISO going beyond where I want I can easily change the shutter or f number. I think on most cameras they are the easiest and quickest things to adjust - on my cameras certainly changing the ISO is the fiddliest. 

[MDM]

51 minutes ago, Phil Robinson said:

I find auto ISO very useful and use it nearly all the time. Unless you use you camera in full manual mode, it is always going to make one decision for you, either ISO, shutter speed or aperture. I nearly always use manual exposure mode but auto ISO so I have full control over aperture and shutter speed, and if I can see the ISO going beyond where I want I can easily change the shutter or f number. I think on most cameras they are the easiest and quickest things to adjust - on my cameras certainly changing the ISO is the fiddliest. 

It’s a valid technique if you are not concerned about controlling dynamic range and noise.
 

Dynamic range is inversely proportional to ISO so increasing ISO means you lose dynamic range. While the new AI denoisers such as Adobe Denoise are very effective in controlling noise even to very high ISO values, you can’t recover dynamic range after the fact. If you are not worried about dynamic range, then fire away freely. I weigh it up when shooting. The most important thing is to get the shot.  I shoot fully manual exposure including choosing ISO and I try to weigh up what is most important at the time. 
 

Here is a link below to a graph on the Photons to Photos website for the Z8 dynamic range v ISO which demonstrates very clearly the relationship between ISO,and dynamic range. The opposite is true for noise which increases either increasing ISO. The  graph also shows a kink point just before the second native ISO of 500. It is effectively saying that you are better to shoot at ISO 500 than at ISO 400, for example. You can’t control this shooting Auto ISO. Whether it matters or not is a decision for the photographer. It matters to me sometimes and other times not. The key point is maintaining control over the camera. 

 

 

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon Z 8

 

 

[Phil Robinson]

1 hour ago, MDM said:

It’s a valid technique if you are not concerned about controlling dynamic range and noise.
 

 

 

 

But you can control dynamic range and noise. You can very easily change the ISO by changing the shutter speed or aperture - which, as I said, are a lot quicker to change than ISO on most cameras. The two variables that have most effect on the final image are shutter and f-number. I'd rather have an image with less than perfect dynamic range or a bit of noise than one that's blurred or out of focus. 

[MDM]

12 minutes ago, Phil Robinson said:

But you can control dynamic range and noise. You can very easily change the ISO by changing the shutter speed or aperture - which, as I said, are a lot quicker to change than ISO on most cameras. The two variables that have most effect on the final image are shutter and f-number. I'd rather have an image with less than perfect dynamic range or a bit of noise than one that's blurred or out of focus. 

It’s a matter of personal choice and it depends on the image. If I was shooting news, dynamic range and noise would not rank high on the list of priorities. For weddings, dynamic range is important with the huge tonal variation between black suits and white dresses. Of course getting the shot is the goal and that is the top priority. 

 

Anyway I would rather control the ISO directly and change if I need to rather than wonder what the camera has decided for me. On the Z8, as with other Nikon cameras, there are loads of custom buttons as well as the shooting menu banks to easily change settings. You can flick easily from one to another. It becomes second nature through use. 

Edited Saturday at 15:40 by MDM

[IKuzmin]

16 hours ago, Sally Robertson said:

He covers some autofocusing and tracking issues that may help you solve your issues. He mostly uses initially wide area focus and then combines with 3D tracking.

Not only him. But i tried this and did not like. Perhaps on a tripod and mostly for video but not for what I am doing. But, Jan is a good photographer and a good presenter. I like his note that he has a better success rate with Canons than with Z8. But it seems that the true Nikon worshippers, not compromised by affairs with other brands, say that Z8 and Z9 are way superior to what they used to use previously. Amen.

[Betty LaRue]

18 hours ago, Sally Robertson said:

 

Betty, if you ever wanted to upgrade from the X-T4, the X-H2s is a really good option if you are especially interested in wildlife, and you can still use all your existing lenses. It's actually quite similar to the Z8 and Z9 but in a smaller, lighter package. It's obviously APS-C and doesn't have all the advantages/features of the Z cameras. It is built like a tank but a mini tank. It has a stacked sensor like the Z8 and Z9. The 150-600mm lens I'm using is really quite light weight for a lens of its focal length and I find it very comfortable to carry around and hand-hold. The image quality and detail is excellent. I would be with the Z series too but for me in a cost-benefit analysis the lighter weight and lesser cost made me go with Fuji (which is still not cheap but cheaper). I've also got the X-H2 which has the 40MP sensor. So between the two of them they cover all scenarios and with their excellent build quality I think they will last me for many years.

I’m no longer pursuing wildlife like I once did, which was mostly birding. I’m not as mobile these days. That said the X-H2 sounds great for birding. I had such Nikon loyalty for so long. Funny thing about how that came to be. I’m a voracious reader, mostly fiction. I read at least 3 books a week, sometimes more. Way back in my teens & twenties, I’d sometimes read about a character that was a photographer. They always shot Nikon, and held the brand up as the best in the world, bar none. I guess it impressed me.

So when I decided to get into a serious camera, it had to be a Nikon. How else could I be taken seriously? 😁 So I was a Nikon snob. I will say when I went digital, I did study and vet all the best brands & still ended up choosing Nikon because of the reviews & sample pictures. The other brands had more purple fringing at the start of digital.

When I got my first Fuji, I came to realize there’s more to photography & brands than Nikon.

[gvallee]

19 hours ago, Sally Robertson said:

Hi again Gen,

 

I just thought I'd mention a +1 for Jan Wegener. I've watched some of his bird photography videos before and found them helpful, but importantly for you he has some really good ones on the Z8.

 

This one covers his basic setup for the Z8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB8zRWvQCKc

 

And this one has practical examples and advice in a field review. He covers some autofocusing and tracking issues that may help you solve your issues. He mostly uses initially wide area focus and then combines with 3D tracking. However, he found this wasn't working so well with birds in flight where it was taking a long time to lock onto the bird. He solved this with two approaches:

1. Reducing the box size for wide area focus.

2. Not trying to focus on a bird before it takes off when the background is a bit too busy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L103gKExcE

 

I've found similar issues with my Fujifilm X-H2s with regard to birds in flight and I'm going to apply some of his ideas. I also have had the problem where you describe where there is more than one bird and the eye tracking keeps jumping between them. I try moving my focus point manually back to the bird I want and press the shutter before the camera changes its mind again! Obviously not ideal though in terms of instant responsiveness to whatever the bird is doing.

 

All the best and with the amazing images you already take I'm sure you will fly with the Z8!

 

 

Thank you so much for all your tips Sally. We're only 4 days into the trip and have already ground to a halt. The inverter of our 4x4 car rental has blown itself. This means no Starlink, no comms, no sat phone and worst of all, can't recharge camera batteries! Just joking but crossing the desert with no comms is an obvious no no. This is to say that I will have to wait to watch the videos you suggested.

 

I have already changed some settings to more sensible ones like Aperture priority and removed auto ISO. It's actually very easy to manually change the ISO on the Z8, as it was on the D4.

 

I will let you know how I'm doing when I'm back in business.

Many thanks again.

 

 

 

[Sally Robertson]

4 hours ago, gvallee said:

 

Thank you so much for all your tips Sally. We're only 4 days into the trip and have already ground to a halt. The inverter of our 4x4 car rental has blown itself. This means no Starlink, no comms, no sat phone and worst of all, can't recharge camera batteries! Just joking but crossing the desert with no comms is an obvious no no. This is to say that I will have to wait to watch the videos you suggested.

 

I have already changed some settings to more sensible ones like Aperture priority and removed auto ISO. It's actually very easy to manually change the ISO on the Z8, as it was on the D4.

 

I will let you know how I'm doing when I'm back in business.

Many thanks again.

 

 

 

 

Oh no Gen, yes, not being able to charge the camera batteries is the worst part! Otherwise I'm sure you'd be out seeing what birds and other things are about to photograph while stranded. I really hope it resolves soon.

 

This morning I watched another of Jan's videos which is an update on the Z8 autofocusing with the firmware 2.0. The previous issues he outlined are resolved. So no more doing wide area focus combined with 3D tracking for birds in flight. He found it works well now with auto area focussing. So this video would presumably be the most relevant for you now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxfQB1V2Fk8

 

Although I'm using a different system I learn things from his videos and also Duade Paton who has many helpful videos. One of the helpful hints I learned from Jan was that Major Mitchell Cockatoos raise their crest just briefly before landing and then quickly put it down again. Last year I saw Major Mitchell Cockatoos in the wild for the first time near a place called Bonnie Rock and got to put that into practice. So various little hints beyond the technicalities of cameras too. I'm sure you've seen Major Mitchells in your travels.

 

All the best and hopefully you are up and running again soon!

[Sally Robertson]

8 hours ago, IKuzmin said:

Not only him. But i tried this and did not like. Perhaps on a tripod and mostly for video but not for what I am doing. But, Jan is a good photographer and a good presenter. I like his note that he has a better success rate with Canons than with Z8. But it seems that the true Nikon worshippers, not compromised by affairs with other brands, say that Z8 and Z9 are way superior to what they used to use previously. Amen.

 

Just posted a reply that seemed to disappear so sorry if two replies somehow appear. But just wanted to say I found another video of Jan's that I watched this morning in which he says he found the firmware 2.0 on the Z8 fixed the tracking issues, so he can rely on auto area focusing rather than wide are plus 3D as before. Not sure if this would help with what you are doing in terms of the Z8 but thought would mention just in case. It might be helpful if your wife is using the camera as you mention. This is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxfQB1V2Fk8

 

[Sally Robertson]

5 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

I’m no longer pursuing wildlife like I once did, which was mostly birding. I’m not as mobile these days. That said the X-H2 sounds great for birding. I had such Nikon loyalty for so long. Funny thing about how that came to be. I’m a voracious reader, mostly fiction. I read at least 3 books a week, sometimes more. Way back in my teens & twenties, I’d sometimes read about a character that was a photographer. They always shot Nikon, and held the brand up as the best in the world, bar none. I guess it impressed me.

So when I decided to get into a serious camera, it had to be a Nikon. How else could I be taken seriously? 😁 So I was a Nikon snob. I will say when I went digital, I did study and vet all the best brands & still ended up choosing Nikon because of the reviews & sample pictures. The other brands had more purple fringing at the start of digital.

When I got my first Fuji, I came to realize there’s more to photography & brands than Nikon.

 

I loved my two Nikon DSLRs and still have one but I also love my Fujis. I honestly think you can great images with them all now and it's just finding the one that is most tailored to your individual needs. I have small hands and an ongoing issue with an arm injury so for me I ended up sticking with a smaller and lighter APS-C system and Fujifilm offer such an excellent quality APS-C system. But in a magical, ideal world I'd love to have one of every system to play with, from micro four thirds to full frame. I'm glad you've found a good fit with the Fuji.

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

>> Why use Auto ISO at all?

> I find auto ISO very useful and use it nearly all the time.

 

Ditto.  And “P”.  (exception: time exposures @ ISO 100)
Some give priority to not missing fleeting photo opps
over fiddling with dials, buttons, & manuals…

[NYCat]

For what it's worth, when I was shooting wildlife I used aperture priority (almost always wide open) and auto ISO. Yes, some were unusable but I probably have a lot I could use now with the improvements in Lightroom noise reduction.

 

Paulette

[IKuzmin]

8 hours ago, Sally Robertson said:

Just posted a reply that seemed to disappear so sorry if two replies somehow appear. But just wanted to say I found another video of Jan's that I watched this morning in which he says he found the firmware 2.0 on the Z8 fixed the tracking issues, so he can rely on auto area focusing rather than wide are plus 3D as before. Not sure if this would help with what you are doing in terms of the Z8 but thought would mention just in case. It might be helpful if your wife is using the camera as you mention. This is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxfQB1V2Fk8

Thanks. 

Edited Sunday at 10:52 by IKuzmin

[MDM]

25 minutes ago, NYCat said:

For what it's worth, when I was shooting wildlife I used aperture priority (almost always wide open) and auto ISO. Yes, some were unusable but I probably have a lot I could use now with the improvements in Lightroom noise reduction.

 

Paulette

Yes huge developments in denoising tech definitely enable recovery of previously unusable noisy images but there is no way to recover what has not been captured due to reduced dynamic range caused by shooting at too high ISO. A possible example might be your penguin images where the contrast ratio is enormous and you need all the dynamic range you can get for detail in highlight and shadow. I’m not saying this is the case for sure as it might not be possible even at low ISO depending on camera sensor and processing technique - this is just an example. I don’t do bird photography but I can see where capturing the highest possible dynamic range could be a priority for shadow and highlight detail in feathers. This means shooting at the lowest ISO possible while making sure you use a high enough shutter speed to freeze movement. 

Edited Sunday at 10:54 by MDM

[IKuzmin]

2 minutes ago, MDM said:

Yes huge developments in denoising tech definitely enable recovery of previously unusable noisy images but there is no way to recover what has not been captured due to reduced dynamic range caused by shooting at too high ISO. A possible example might be your penguin images where the contrast ratio is enormous and you need all the dynamic range you can get for detail in highlight and shadow. I’m not saying this is the case for sure as it might not be possible even at low ISO depending on camera sensor and processing technique - this is just an example. I don’t do bird photography but I can see where capturing the highest possible dynamic range could be a priority for shadow and highlight detail in feathers. 

deleted

Edited Sunday at 10:56 by IKuzmin

[M.Chapman]

16 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

>> Why use Auto ISO at all?

> I find auto ISO very useful and use it nearly all the time.

 

Ditto.  And “P”.  (exception: time exposures @ ISO 100)
Some give priority to not missing fleeting photo opps
over fiddling with dials, buttons, & manuals…

I use Auto ISO all the time, but have set a maximum ISO of 1600 (M4/3 sensor) so images can't become too noisy in low light conditions.

 

Mark

Edited Sunday at 19:29 by M.Chapman

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

MarkC & all

 

Righto, chum !
Auto ISO offers range control

of ISO and/or shutter speed;

me limit is no slower than 1/60th handheld;

Ta Mark...

(& certainly those using Auto ISO are NOT going to tell those
NOT using Auto ISO that they are in any way wrong about it)

[Sally Robertson]

There's absolutely no wrong or right to using Auto ISO. I've met other bird photographers when I'm at a location who rely on Auto ISO for birds in flight. There's definitely an advantage to setting a max ISO within a range to try to also keep the shutter speed up where you want it to stop the motion and get a sharp image. I've just got quite fussy at controlling the ISO exactly based on a sense I've developed of the lowest ISO I can use with a particular aperture and shutter speed in certain lighting conditions. It doesn't mean this is always the right choice though and there are times I'd likely benefit from using Auto ISO and should be trying it.

 

In the Duade Paton video I posted earlier he provides a useful chart of ISO ranges he uses for bright, medium and dark conditions. He does this for his R5, but he also does it for one of his old Canon DSLRs which requires lower ISO to minimise noise, to provide a guide for people without the latest mirrorless gear. It's quite helpful, and he goes on to show the results he gets shooting in both Manual mode and Manual + Auto ISO. I think it is basically knowing the range parameters that best suit your camera in the lighting conditions and then choosing settings that you feel most comfortable using to get the results you're looking for. It's good to experiment and try different things and see what gives the best results.