Keywording in LIGHTROOM

[Allan Bell]

I have been looking at all settings/presets etc. in LR to see if I can find a setting which turns keyword sequencing on/off.

 

At the moment the keywords are automatically switched to alphabetical order on finishing keywording ready to export.

 

Has anyone found a way to switch this off so that entered keywords remain in the order they are entered?

 

Yes I have Bridge but it is putting another step in the processing workflow and if possible I would like to continue keywording in LR but with alpha ordering switched off.

 

Allan

 

For "keywords" read "Tags" if you wish.

 

ITMA

 

 

[Zigzagmtart]

As far as I have ever been able to determine LR always uses alphabetical sorting for keywords.  Using Jim Keir's plugin alters this somewhat if you allow it to prioritize but then you are using the sort order of the plugin.

 

Adobe keeps making 'improvements' to LR but not much has changed with the keywording which for me is of a much higher priority than some other things.  But unfortunately we stock shooters must be a small segment of the user population.

[Graham]

Sadly, it is definitely not possible to have Lightroom enter keywords in anything other than alphabetical order.

 

Having used Lightroom initially, I then use Photo Mechanic on the exported images to order the keywords as I want before uploading.  Hopefully when (if) Camerabits get round to releasing the long-promised version 6 with its database it will be possible to do all this in one step and bypass Lightroom.  But this has been promised for so long that it sounds increasingly like vapourware and I will believe it if and when I see it.

 

Graham

[Martin Carlsson]

Good Sunday morning you wee snappers!

 

I'm a bit lazy this morning so perhaps didn't make the best of searches (couldn't find anything that looked like it would give me any specifics), so I'm asking nicely if someone pretty please can point me in the direction where the importance of 'keyword order' and/or 'keyword proximity' is backed up by numbers or "something" more concrete, bar just the loose mention by Alamy that it matters - how much, how little? I'll even take anecdotal info into consideration if you're not a complete troll.

 

Just want to be able to assess whether this is something worthwhile doing or not - I'm not currently, even pretty bad at choosing supertags and I'm still doing alright. It must matter enough if people are willing to change software to be able to re-arrange the keywords - so please give me something good evidence please.

[Allan Bell]

7 hours ago, Martin Carlsson said:

Good Sunday morning you wee snappers!

 

I'm a bit lazy this morning so perhaps didn't make the best of searches (couldn't find anything that looked like it would give me any specifics), so I'm asking nicely if someone pretty please can point me in the direction where the importance of 'keyword order' and/or 'keyword proximity' is backed up by numbers or "something" more concrete, bar just the loose mention by Alamy that it matters - how much, how little? I'll even take anecdotal info into consideration if you're not a complete troll.

 

Just want to be able to assess whether this is something worthwhile doing or not - I'm not currently, even pretty bad at choosing supertags and I'm still doing alright. It must matter enough if people are willing to change software to be able to re-arrange the keywords - so please give me something good evidence please.

 

I cannot give the details you are asking but since I started tagging in LR I have not had a sale (licensed image).

 

After seeing this, "Try to avoid adding alphabetical lists of tags. Proximity of one tag compared to another used in a multi-word search can have an effect on where it appears in the sort order, which is why we’d recommend adding phrases / multi-word tags where appropriate.", in Alamy's advice on tagging I wondered if it might just have something to do with my problem.

 

As it is very difficult, nigh on impossible, to rearrange tags in AIM we need to look for another solution to arrange tags as we wish. Alamy has been asked for the ability to do this in AIM but has not acceded to the request as yet.

 

I was hoping that there might have been a way to arrange tags in LR which I had missed but it seems not. It looks like i will have to either accept that tags are sent to Alamy in alphabetical order or utilise another step in my workflow, something I am loath to do.

 

Allan

 

Thank you to all for all the input BTW.  Sorry I should have mentioned that I am using LR 6.14, the last stand alone version.

 

ITMA

 

 

[Andreas]

For those who have access to Abobe Bridge - adding keywords in Bridge does not change the sorting.

I found this tip at https://www.alltageinesfotoproduzenten.de/2015/06/25/frag-den-fotograf-keywords-alphabetisch-sortieren-mit-adobe-lightroom/ (german site).

The article includes two links where you can leave your modification wishes  to Adobe.

1) https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom_keyword_re_ordering_is_a_huge_problem

2) http://dearadobe.com/gripes/lightroom/

 

But looks like Adobe is ignoring this long-existing requirement.

 

regards, Andreas

[Sally]

2 hours ago, Allan Bell said:

 

I cannot give the details you are asking but since I started tagging in LR I have not had a sale (licensed image).

 

After seeing this, "Try to avoid adding alphabetical lists of tags. Proximity of one tag compared to another used in a multi-word search can have an effect on where it appears in the sort order, which is why we’d recommend adding phrases / multi-word tags where appropriate.", in Alamy's advice on tagging I wondered if it might just have something to do with my problem.

 

As it is very difficult, nigh on impossible, to rearrange tags in AIM we need to look for another solution to arrange tags as we wish. Alamy has been asked for the ability to do this in AIM but has not acceded to the request as yet.

 

I was hoping that there might have been a way to arrange tags in LR which I had missed but it seems not. It looks like i will have to either accept that tags are sent to Alamy in alphabetical order or utilise another step in my workflow, something I am loath to do.

 

Allan

 

Thank you to all for all the input BTW.  Sorry I should have mentioned that I am using LR 6.14, the last stand alone version.

 

ITMA

 

 

You don’t need another step in the workflow. If you keyword in LR, and export keywords using Alamy Lightroom Bridge plug-in, it will prioritise tags and select supertags. It does a pretty good job but always worth checking afterwards.

[Allan Bell]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

For those who have access to Abobe Bridge - adding keywords in Bridge does not change the sorting.

I found this tip at https://www.alltageinesfotoproduzenten.de/2015/06/25/frag-den-fotograf-keywords-alphabetisch-sortieren-mit-adobe-lightroom/ (german site).

The article includes two links where you can leave your modification wishes  to Adobe.

1) https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom_keyword_re_ordering_is_a_huge_problem

2) http://dearadobe.com/gripes/lightroom/

 

But looks like Adobe is ignoring this long-existing requirement.

 

regards, Andreas

 

Thanks for the info Andreas but I do not think Adobe will take much notice of one little voice in the wilderness. Besides they are not offering any more updates for LR 6.14.

 

Allan

 

 

[Allan Bell]

3 minutes ago, Sally said:

You don’t need another step in the workflow. If you keyword in LR, and export keywords using Alamy Lightroom Bridge plug-in, it will prioritise tags and select supertags. It does a pretty good job but always worth checking afterwards.

 

Thanks Sally.

 

I have Adobe Bridge software but not the Alamy LR Bridge plug-in.

 

Where can I get it?

How much does it cost?

Is it easy to use and integrate with LR 6.14?

 

Help!

 

Allan

 

 

[Sally]

9 minutes ago, Allan Bell said:

 

Thanks Sally.

 

I have Adobe Bridge software but not the Alamy LR Bridge plug-in.

 

Where can I get it?

How much does it cost?

Is it easy to use and integrate with LR 6.14?

 

Help!

 

Allan

 

 

https://www.lightroom-plugins.com/AlamyIndex.php

worth paying the £25 for the full version

It is worth looking at the new You Tube video to get you started. See Here

 

 

 

 

 

[Allan Bell]

1 minute ago, Sally said:

https://www.lightroom-plugins.com/AlamyIndex.php

It is worth looking at the new You Tube video to get you started. See Here

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks for the information Sally.

I will look at it after my break.

 

Allan

 

 

[Zigzagmtart]

Allan, I use the Lightroom plugin for all my Alamy uploads.  Have done so for perhaps 3 maybe 4 years.  I would not be without it.  It allows a Lightroom workflow that meshes with what I am already doing.  Note however that if your Lightroom keywords are a mess then the plugin is not going to help.  I am meticulous about keeping my Lightroom keyword library in good shape so it works well for me.

 

Best,

John

[Martin Carlsson]

I bought and tried to love the Alamy LR plugin a few years ago (2-3 years ago). I couldn't get it to a stable point and to the point that I felt that I could "trust it" so I uninstalled it. I would have loved to get it to work, as I'm very particular about my metadata and do it all in LR. Perhaps I gave up to early/easily, but don't think that these things should be complicated - should just work.

 

Anyway, since LR came on the market I've used it and I never moved keywords about in the new AIM. I do use phrases where it makes sense. I do occasionally use supertags. Sales are fine, as always could be better. My focus is to ensure outstanding relevancy of my keywords, I detest spamming and good conceptual keyword(s) when applicable. Keywording is an art and an ongoing thing to get better and better at.

[Sally]

4 minutes ago, Martin Carlsson said:

I bought and tried to love the Alamy LR plugin a few years ago (2-3 years ago). I couldn't get it to a stable point and to the point that I felt that I could "trust it" so I uninstalled it. I would have loved to get it to work, as I'm very particular about my metadata and do it all in LR. Perhaps I gave up to early/easily, but don't think that these things should be complicated - should just work.

 

Anyway, since LR came on the market I've used it and I never moved keywords about in the new AIM. I do use phrases where it makes sense. I do occasionally use supertags. Sales are fine, as always could be better. My focus is to ensure outstanding relevancy of my keywords, I detest spamming and good conceptual keyword(s) when applicable. Keywording is an art and an ongoing thing to get better and better at.

Might be worth giving the plugin another go. It is constantly being tweaked and refined.

[Martin Carlsson]

27 minutes ago, Sally said:

Might be worth giving the plugin another go. It is constantly being tweaked and refined.

 

Is that a recent re-focus on it, as back when I used/tried it it wasn't much happening with it and I would assess it as pretty unrefined? Manually having to link every single image to the corresponding Alamy refnumber is also not something that I want to attempt again.

 

I'll swing by their website and have a look. TY.

 

PS.

 

Had to pay £5 renewal/extension fee, installation was pain free and now trying to fetch Alamy data for one image. Fingers crossed that this will work, would be an enormous time saver. TY again @Sally for "steering" me in this direction (if it works, otherwise you owe me £5  )

[Sally]

46 minutes ago, Martin Carlsson said:

 

Is that a recent re-focus on it, as back when I used/tried it it wasn't much happening with it and I would assess it as pretty unrefined? Manually having to link every single image to the corresponding Alamy refnumber is also not something that I want to attempt again.

 

I'll swing by their website and have a look. TY.

 

PS.

 

Had to pay £5 renewal/extension fee, installation was pain free and now trying to fetch Alamy data for one image. Fingers crossed that this will work, would be an enormous time saver. TY again @Sally for "steering" me in this direction (if it works, otherwise you owe me £5  )

If you didn’t use the plugin to upload the images, it can be a bit fiddly to get them to match. Worth manually putting in one Alamy reference for a one photo of a batch, which then seems to match the rest, as that worked for me.

[Craig Joiner]

1 hour ago, Martin Carlsson said:

 

Manually having to link every single image to the corresponding Alamy refnumber is also not something that I want to attempt again.

 

The key is getting your file names to match the ones you used when you sent the images to Alamy. If there are consistent differences (such as a simple prefix or suffix) then the plugin can be set-up to account for that. If, like me, you radically changed your file naming along the way and lots of your images with Alamy have filenames significantly different to your current filenames in LR, then this is a bit more tricky.

 

They way I handled this was ask Alamy to send me their metadata spreadsheet of my images and this contained the filenames I originally supplied. It was then a simple case of identifying the images with my old filenames and modifying the spreadsheet so these matched the filenames in LR. I then sent the spreadsheet back to Alamy who uploaded it to their system and updated all my filenames so they now matched LR.

Craig

[Martin Carlsson]

1 hour ago, Craig Joiner said:

The key is getting your file names to match the ones you used when you sent the images to Alamy. If there are consistent differences (such as a simple prefix or suffix) then the plugin can be set-up to account for that. If, like me, you radically changed your file naming along the way and lots of your images with Alamy have filenames significantly different to your current filenames in LR, then this is a bit more tricky.

 

They way I handled this was ask Alamy to send me their metadata spreadsheet of my images and this contained the filenames I originally supplied. It was then a simple case of identifying the images with my old filenames and modifying the spreadsheet so these matched the filenames in LR. I then sent the spreadsheet back to Alamy who uploaded it to their system and updated all my filenames so they now matched LR.

Craig

 

It seems to be matching up just fine - it's currently downloading loads of data for non-current images (I think). My images are re-named immediately on import (YYYYMMDD-HHMMSS with suffixes "_1, _2" only when they are taken within the same second or are variations of the same file) and have that name forever.

[Allan Bell]

This is all very interesting. I have had a quick look at the video link Sally gave me but still need to investigate further. From the posts following Sally's post giving the vid link it appears to be more confusing and adding more steps in the processing workflow. If, as Martin says, his sales are still coming in at a normal rate with tagging in LR then it might be that it is not that which is causing my lack of sales. Will have to look again.

 

I can see where Alamy-Lightroom can be useful though to those who are already using it.

 

Allan

 

 

[Sally]

10 hours ago, Allan Bell said:

This is all very interesting. I have had a quick look at the video link Sally gave me but still need to investigate further. From the posts following Sally's post giving the vid link it appears to be more confusing and adding more steps in the processing workflow. If, as Martin says, his sales are still coming in at a normal rate with tagging in LR then it might be that it is not that which is causing my lack of sales. Will have to look again.

 

I can see where Alamy-Lightroom can be useful though to those who are already using it.

 

Allan

 

 

It does take a bit of getting used to, however there are so many advantages.

 You can see where you have made spelling mistakes in tags easily. You can see which images have missing optional data. It records sales of images. It won’t upload the same image twice by mistake. You can search by alamy image ref. I could go on....

[Allan Bell]

14 hours ago, Sally said:

It does take a bit of getting used to, however there are so many advantages.

 You can see where you have made spelling mistakes in tags easily. You can see which images have missing optional data. It records sales of images. It won’t upload the same image twice by mistake. You can search by alamy image ref. I could go on....

 

Thanks Sally. I have not given up on Alamy-Lightroom-Bridge, just need more time to investigate and assess it.

 

Thanks again for the heads up.

 

Allan

 

 

[Martin Carlsson]

I'm so glad that "I fell into" this thread and re-visited the plugin after Sally's persuasive words. It is a slight getting used to (been 2-3 years since I used it last), but the manual has been great.

 

Now I feel like I have a pretty good grip on it and I can't stress enough how much time I will save purely by not having to delete all the keywords in AIM and paste in my updated ones from LR - that in itself is a godsend!

 

Huge thank you @Sally you're my personal hero and "forum angel" for some time to come - thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

[Martin Carlsson]

33 minutes ago, Allan Bell said:

 

Thanks Sally. I have not given up on Alamy-Lightroom-Bridge, just need more time to investigate and assess it.

 

Thanks again for the heads up.

 

Allan

 

 

 

There is nothing to "assess" - I'm not easy to please and hate cumbersome, sketchy stuff - does my head in. This plugin is now in such good/stable/usable state that one would do themselves a disservice by not using it if one is somewhat of an active Alamy contributor and also maintains an organised pristine Lightroom catalogue. Wish all libraries had a plugin like this - my god that would be fantastic. So go on @Allan Bell go for it, you won't regret it.

[Martin Carlsson]

14 hours ago, Sally said:

It does take a bit of getting used to, however there are so many advantages.

 You can see where you have made spelling mistakes in tags easily. You can see which images have missing optional data. It records sales of images. It won’t upload the same image twice by mistake. You can search by alamy image ref. I could go on....

 

The realisation that you don't have to go to AIM anymore and delete all the keywords one by one if you want to do a straight copy/paste from your Lightroom catalogue - I'm dancing, literally I was dancing earlier (just a wee dance, but a dance nonetheless) for this realisation alone! I've been whining about it for soo long, I can stop whining about that now - I'm so happy! 

[Martin Carlsson]

On 9/24/2018 at 11:59, Allan Bell said:

This is all very interesting. I have had a quick look at the video link Sally gave me but still need to investigate further. From the posts following Sally's post giving the vid link it appears to be more confusing and adding more steps in the processing workflow. If, as Martin says, his sales are still coming in at a normal rate with tagging in LR then it might be that it is not that which is causing my lack of sales. Will have to look again.

 

I can see where Alamy-Lightroom can be useful though to those who are already using it.

 

Allan

 

 

 

I can't say that keyword order doesn't matter, perhaps I would do greater if I cared about it, but nothing has ever given me reason enough to care about it - no hard numbers, not enough conclusive anecdotal statement, nor has Alamy said that it is super-duper important. All I/we know is that it plays a part in the algorithm, but I'm guessing that it's role is minuscule - IMHO of course.