Camera Girl Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I have been sent an email from the tourist board for my county. They are interested in purchasing some of my pictures for their photo library. This is what they say regarding usage: There is a possibility we might be interested in purchasing a number of images from you and I wondered whether you could give me an idea of how much you would charge please? We would need to have unlimited use of the images in our own publicity material – in print and online – and also be able to upload them to our online photo library for use by third parties (including our partners, journalists, tour operators, travel agents etc both in the UK and overseas) for the promotion of tourism to our county. We would not sell the images on, nor would they be used on items which would then be sold (with the possible exception of calendars). On the T&Cs of the photo library itself (which you can't get onto unless you ask for a link from them) they say: Terms and Conditions of Use• Photos may be used in print and/or online for the promotion of tourism to our county• Any photos used must be credited to (the tourist board) unless otherwise stated in the title of the photo• Photos are for use by the person/organisation to whom the links are sent only; photos and/or links may not be forwarded on to third parties• Photos may not be sold on to third parties• Photos may not be used on items that are subsequently sold – e.g. calendars, mugs etc. Now it seems to me that if I sell my images to them, I could potentially be losing out on sales say, through Alamy, as journalists and tour operators etc are the very customers that would use Alamy. With Alamy I get paid each time an image is used according to use, whereas once I have sold the tourist board an image I will get no further payment and possibly not even a credit line. Have any of you worked with your regional tourist boards and if so, on what sort of terms? What do you even think of Visit Wiltshire's t&cs both regarding me as the image supplier and as regards the end users. If you think it would be a good idea to sell them some images (by-the-way I have no intention of selling the copyright - no way!) what should I charge them per image? I assume they will want a high res file. Any help/advice/experience gratefully received... Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustydingo Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Just a point or two of clarification re their online photo library--do they charge users for the use of the images therein, and if so, do you receive any royalty? If not, you would need to charge much more imo . . . OR . . . you negotiate a royalty on any future re-licensing of your images . . . in addition to a fee per image up front, of course. At another reasonably influential place, a much more restricted use than this attracts a cost of several hundred quid per image . . . dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Have a look at the rates for providing work for public relations purposes which is essentially what is being requested. NUJ's (or an associate's) survey is available online somewhere, don't have the address to hand. Look at pricing calculators for PR uses. Ad DD suggests it should not be cheap, especially as these were not commissioned by them as PR images (where they would have paid a day rate, plus expenses) and depending on the weather it may have been pot luck what they got. They sound as though they want to cherry pick the best images ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 What Martin Said. UK rates: Association of Photographer Usage Calculator Londonfreelance Freelance Fees Guide National Union of Journalists Rate for the Job The last ones probably overlap as they are from the same source: one local and one national I guess. wim edit: try to find out which ones they're after and if there's much competition. Both in quantity and quality. Plus what they have been using in the past. Are yours significantly different and or better? Adjust rates accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Just a point or two of clarification re their online photo library--do they charge users for the use of the images therein, and if so, do you receive any royalty? If not, you would need to charge much more imo . . . OR . . . you negotiate a royalty on any future re-licensing of your images . . . in addition to a fee per image up front, of course. At another reasonably influential place, a much more restricted use than this attracts a cost of several hundred quid per image . . . dd They don't charge users for the use of the images. I also don't get any royalties. And yes, I am thinking that the price per image that I would need to charge to make it worth my while, will be far more than they would be prepared to pay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Just a point or two of clarification re their online photo library--do they charge users for the use of the images therein, and if so, do you receive any royalty? If not, you would need to charge much more imo . . . OR . . . you negotiate a royalty on any future re-licensing of your images . . . in addition to a fee per image up front, of course. At another reasonably influential place, a much more restricted use than this attracts a cost of several hundred quid per image . . . dd They don't charge users for the use of the images. I also don't get any royalties. And yes, I am thinking that the price per image that I would need to charge to make it worth my while, will be far more than they would be prepared to pay... Sometimes you just have to accept that there is not a deal that will suit both sides. Stick to your guns and be prepared to say no, firmly but politely. Your self respect will benefit long after you have spent the pittance they will probably offer. Some great advice I had many years ago (indirectly from a general dealer). "When you are buying you don't need to buy, when you are selling you don't need to sell". At least as far as the person you are negotiating with is concerned; don't show your desperation, even if you are feeling it, in other words. A good negotiator is always prepared to walk away from a bad deal ... As the Chinese apparently say: a good (or a fair) agreement is where both parties leave feeling somewhat disappointed with the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Just a point or two of clarification re their online photo library--do they charge users for the use of the images therein, and if so, do you receive any royalty? If not, you would need to charge much more imo . . . OR . . . you negotiate a royalty on any future re-licensing of your images . . . in addition to a fee per image up front, of course. At another reasonably influential place, a much more restricted use than this attracts a cost of several hundred quid per image . . . dd They don't charge users for the use of the images. I also don't get any royalties. And yes, I am thinking that the price per image that I would need to charge to make it worth my while, will be far more than they would be prepared to pay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelshots Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 If you can go and retake similar images this summer then sell ! Make a good price depending on how many they buy ... use a sliding scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Hi Wiskerke and Martin, Thanks for your input. I have looked at the calculators but they all seem to relate to commissioned work and usage thereafter. These people have not commissioned me - they want to use photos I have already taken either off my own bat or as commissions for other people. (To which I still hold copyright and the commissions were non-exclusive so I can do what I like with the images). It is impossible to look at the complete library - they gave me a link to one 'album' - a set of 7 images of a village, none of which had any reference to the photographer who took them. The images are not inspiring. From what I have seen of the images they put up on their social media posts, mine would be up there with the best if not the best (not wanting to sound big-headed just realistic). They are also saying they may be doing a calendar in the future. I have been producing a calendar of Wiltshire for the past 5 years so that would be in direct competition especially if it had my own images in it. To be honest I am thinking more and more that I shall say a polite 'no thank you' and perhaps have a session researching and emailing various tour operators/travel agents etc myself and try and sell to them directly - with proper individual usage rights clearly spelt out in any transaction....and no, I am not desperate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 The other thing people should factor in is the cost, for example: lost business, reputational damage through loss of control and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 The other thing people should factor in is the cost, for example: lost business, reputational damage through loss of control and the like. Quite right because their library appears to be on Flickr, which is a notorious source of knockoffs unless it is a private album, but of course it can be profitable to chase UK infringements yourself. Travelshots mentions replacing them, but it's a non-exclusive deal, so they can stay on Alamy. I'm not sure what price I would come up with- the suggestion of looking at commission rates is just to help you come up with one. Edit: as wiskerke says, find out exactly what they want. You're licensing photographs, not selling by the pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armstrong Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Good advice above. I would also add: 1. Allow them to licence the images. Do not allow them to sub-licence. 2. You must make clear you retain copyright (unless this explicitly agreed with you for a substantial premium) 3. Images must be credited to You/Visit Wiltshire to avoid confusion if the image is infringed. I'd also edit out the name of the Tourist Board out of your original post so they don't know exactly what you are thinking. They may find it quickly if they have a Google Alert on their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Hi Wiskerke and Martin, Thanks for your input. I have looked at the calculators but they all seem to relate to commissioned work and usage thereafter. These people have not commissioned me - they want to use photos I have already taken either off my own bat or as commissions for other people. (To which I still hold copyright and the commissions were non-exclusive so I can do what I like with the images). It is impossible to look at the complete library - they gave me a link to one 'album' - a set of 7 images of a village, none of which had any reference to the photographer who took them. The images are not inspiring. From what I have seen of the images they put up on their social media posts, mine would be up there with the best if not the best (not wanting to sound big-headed just realistic). They are also saying they may be doing a calendar in the future. I have been producing a calendar of Wiltshire for the past 5 years so that would be in direct competition especially if it had my own images in it. To be honest I am thinking more and more that I shall say a polite 'no thank you' and perhaps have a session researching and emailing various tour operators/travel agents etc myself and try and sell to them directly - with proper individual usage rights clearly spelt out in any transaction....and no, I am not desperate.... @ commissioned work That's exactly what you're competing with. Or what they would otherwise been using / have to use. That is, maybe until the abundance of stock came to be, a bit depending on the subject. However I would check out if the images they are using right now, indeed have been commissioned. Lots of images with same credit? Were these commissioned or does he/she shoot on spec? Use Google Images etc to trace the use of the images and to track the photographer(s). Download the images see if the Exif headers are still intact. Professionals will have their name in there. (You all do have your name in there don't you?) Is there no way to find more images? Press pages? @ not exclusive Yes, but indeed you will be competing with your own paid work against your own free work. So full credits with every photo. Don't give them a lot if they're not paying a lot. And see if it brings more paid work. Usually not. Don't give them all the rights they are asking where you are already active yourself (or your clients). So no calendars. If they want one: we'll discuss a new price. They want RF everything. You want to sell RM even when it's PR work. So with each image comes a copyright notice and a warning that this image can only be used in promotion of this county. wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Good advice above. I would also add: 1. Allow them to licence the images. Do not allow them to sub-licence. 2. You must make clear you retain copyright (unless this explicitly agreed with you for a substantial premium) 3. Images must be credited to You/Visit Wiltshire to avoid confusion if the image is infringed. I'd also edit out the name of the Tourist Board out of your original post so they don't know exactly what you are thinking. They may find it quickly if they have a Google Alert on their name. Good point Armstrong - I have edited out the names - thanks. I have specifically said that I will not consider selling the copyright and have asked (but not yet had a reply) that I would want to be credited on every image use. I'm not sure what you mean by sub-license. I think when someone approaches them - eg a tour operator, staing what images they are looking for, they get the link to the relevant Flickr page and can then just download for free. The tourist board does not charge. I guess that by making people have to ask for the link (I had to and then only got one to a few photos of a village) they are keeping some control of who uses them. What the tour operator then does with them is a bit up for grabs though the t&cs are clear - but that is the case with any image. Infringements are rife and easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Nice website; nice active promotion. Imagery seems a bit on the amateurish side, but that may nowadays be not that bad (think Tripadvisor). Lacock Abbey exterior is ©NTPL/Andrew Butler Lacock Abbey interior is Greenshed on commons.wikimedia 2008 So some hunt and peck from the net probably. Here's a press pack in pdf, a bit clumsy for reverse image look-up. I agree with avoiding the Google Alert, however it's probably too late already. wim edit: the press pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armstrong Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Good advice above. I would also add: 1. Allow them to licence the images. Do not allow them to sub-licence. 2. You must make clear you retain copyright (unless this explicitly agreed with you for a substantial premium) 3. Images must be credited to You/Visit Wiltshire to avoid confusion if the image is infringed. I'd also edit out the name of the Tourist Board out of your original post so they don't know exactly what you are thinking. They may find it quickly if they have a Google Alert on their name. I'm not sure what you mean by sub-license. All I meant was the Tourist Board distributing and deciding who gets your photos (even if no money changes hands). Ideally you should be control of this. You can then decide what use falls within your agreement with the Tourist Board and what needs an additional paying licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 +1 with Jeff, if you think it's going to be a bit of gravy and you don't actually license the images often yourself. I get the impression that the question "what is your budget" is one for buyers who are used to being asked it- sophisticated and regular picture buyers, not the people who wrote that email- but there's no harm asking it. If you get an answer, or don't, it's a bit of information. They evidently want to be able to sub-license- that's what they mean by "use by third parties"- and they don't want the bother of having to effectively be your agent. So you have to regard what they're asking for as a non-exclusive buyout of the images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 Hi everyone, Many, many thanks for your inputs all of which have been very helpful and I have taken it all on board. I have now started talking figures with them. They quoted an 'around' price per image which I felt was too low and the number of images they would want depended on cost per image. I have gathered from this that they have a budget of around £1k. I have quoted them a higher figure per image (I would rather sell fewer images for a higher price per image) with the expectation that we will meet somewhere halfway...I have done a lot of bartering (in the reverse direction) in Middle Eastern souks!! The ball is now in their court. I will let you know the outcome and hope this thread might help others who may find themselves in a similar situation.... I have also put things in perspective....given that they only want up to 20 images and I have many thousands, some of which will be similar to the ones they will want, given the pittance that an individual sale on Alamy makes (sorry, Alamy, no offence to you just the way the stock market is these days), given the unpredictability of whether a particular image will ever sell even, given I will still retain full copyright and they are not expecting exclusivity - and given that a nice lump sum upfront is worth a lot these days - I shall probably strike a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Well 50x20 isn't bad considering it's just for images to go in a library, rather than specific uses. Just keep an eye on those particular images now and again on image search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Just to update you since you were so kind to take the time to help me....we have suspended negotiations until their next financial year as they have used up their photography and video budget for this year. They do not credit individual photographers on their social media and web pages and I have reluctantly agreed to waive that requirement. I think I will be able to charge around £50 per image - their t&cs regarding third party use I posted earlier in the thread. If they buy up to 20 images as they inferred they would then that will be a nice bit of money up front and I'll be happy...ish. I will of course, retain full copyright of the images so can still sell them elsewhere. It has ended amicably and with the mutual expectation that we will work together in the future. Thanks again for all your help and good advice, Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 > I think I will be able to charge around £50 per image...If they buy up to 20 images as they inferred they would When time comes, nudge it upwards, e.g., Less than 15 = £100 per image 15-19 images = £75 per image 20-24 images = £60 per image 25 or more = £50 per image Cup o' tea & scone if it works... Of course, as part of your annual business review, it is purely good management practice, you set your budget and revise your prices/ rates at the start of each fiscal year (From 5 April). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camera Girl Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 > I think I will be able to charge around £50 per image...If they buy up to 20 images as they inferred they would When time comes, nudge it upwards, e.g., Less than 15 = £100 per image 15-19 images = £75 per image 20-24 images = £60 per image 25 or more = £50 per image Cup o' tea & scone if it works... Thanks Jeff - I will give it a try! Worth a cream tea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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