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Un bonjour à tous depuis Paris


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3 hours ago, spacecadet said:

It's auto-translated.

I used to include some local language keywords for appropriate images until Alamy asked us to stop, and I get search results from them, but occasionally I'll get a French or German word in my measures that I certainly didn't put in myself- I've checked. They may well have led to the odd sale.

 

 

There is an issue when the foreign words seem to have gone into the English vernacular and people use them in English language search, so you way want to consider including some, as Alamy will not translate them....  

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14 hours ago, John Mitchell said:

 

Mais je suis un Canadien poli. 😇
 



" le moteur de recherche" J'aime ça. J'ai appris quelque chose de nouvea 



 

 

always be careful assuming a Franco-Ontarian, which i consider myself by now, using internationally used French terms- though "moteur de recherche" is a proper term, i wouldn't put it past people in France using "le search engine" (le serch N-jeen") or "le google" 😉 .  For example where i would use "courriel" for e-mail they would likely use "le mail" (sic)

 

 

note: for those wondering why i feel a difference in "Franco-Ontarian" (or Franco-Canadian) vs Québécois (where i was born), is though I work hard to preserve my maternal language, English is by now more prevalent for me, and sometimes i don't have as much protectionism towards the language as people in Québec would have, and did wonder after this if "moteur de recherche" may actually be an anglicism which would be poo-pooed by the agency in charge of protection of French in that Province (office de la langue française), it isn't and it seems to be what they promote in usage.

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2 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

 

always be careful assuming a Franco-Ontarian, which i consider myself by now, using internationally used French terms- though "moteur de recherche" is a proper term, i wouldn't put it past people in France using "le search engine" (le serch N-jeen") or "le google" 😉 .  For example where i would use "courriel" for e-mail they would likely use "le mail" (sic)

 

 

note: for those wondering why i feel a difference in "Franco-Ontarian" (or Franco-Canadian) vs Québécois (where i was born), is though I work hard to preserve my maternal language, English is by now more prevalent for me, and sometimes i don't have as much protectionism towards the language as people in Québec would have, and did wonder after this if "moteur de recherche" may actually be an anglicism which would be poo-pooed by the agency in charge of protection of French in that Province (office de la langue française), it isn't and it seems to be what they promote in usage.

 

Yes, it seems that the French everywhere can be very picky about usage (among other things). My French is pretty bad now. I only speak it (or try to) when I go back "home" to Montreal, and people usually switch to English when they hear me. In university, I took a French literature course where I had to read novels in French and write papers in French. I couldn't do that now. I often listen to CBC Radio-Canada in Vancouver to help keep my remaining French-speaking brain cells alive. Also, I like listening to all "le cool jazz" that they play.

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2 hours ago, John Mitchell said:

 

people usually switch to English when they hear me.

That is something I noticed too.  Why is that?  "Don't bother because unless you are French you can't speak properly, so we'll switch over as anyone can speak English the right way?"   (absolutely mean no disrespect by this)

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34 minutes ago, Autumn Sky said:

That is something I noticed too.  Why is that?  "Don't bother because unless you are French you can't speak properly, so we'll switch over as anyone can speak English the right way?"   (absolutely mean no disrespect by this)

 

If I'm being generous, it might be because they're desperate to practice their English... Last time I was in Paris, I had a couple of occasions where I was only speaking French and the French native speaker talking with me was only speaking English..... 🤦‍♂️

Edited by Steve F
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1 hour ago, Autumn Sky said:

That is something I noticed too.  Why is that?  "Don't bother because unless you are French you can't speak properly, so we'll switch over as anyone can speak English the right way?"   (absolutely mean no disrespect by this)

 

Hi bonjour. I attribute it to the fact that most people (younger people anyway, and just about everyone seems young to me now) in Montreal are now bilingual and comfortable in either tongue. Consequently, when they hear my halting French, they immediately switch languages. When I was a kid in the 60's, it was still very much "the two solitudes." As an anglo, I wasn't encouraged to become fluent in French, and the instruction we got in school was totally inadequate and didn't reflect Quebec culture at all. I also knew French-speakers who literally didn't understand a word of anglais, so I guess it worked both ways.  Fortunately, things have greatly improved.

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1 hour ago, Steve F said:

 

If I'm being generous, it might be because they're desperate to practice their English... Last time I was in Paris, I had a couple of occasions where I was only speaking French and the French native speaker talking with me was only speaking English..... 🤦‍♂️

 

maybe in France, and much less the further your get from Paris, and the older the person gets.  

 

 

As for in Montreal, reverting to English is usually to be "helpful", which many local Anglophones have started to question- as many have made efforts to learn some French, and find a bit insulting that someone reverts right away to English....  but language is a touchy subject.     Haven't been through rural Quebec in years, so wouldn't know. 

 

 

The big issue with speaking French with someone who struggles, is the way we learn French.  The language is thought to us through grammar rules.  Our brain then gets programmed that way.  Whereas in English you will listen to the content and "computate"  even if error made (see you got that), in French my brain first goes "error! error! error" even though i totally understand what you are trying to say.  Even simple thing, like using the wrong gender....  if you say "le table"  (instead of 'la table") i first hear the error, not that message....  It is really hard to deprogram.  

 

note that we get the same even within French.  My brain will react automatically with someone from France using Anglo words in the French language (parking, week-end, ferry) which i have learned to be wrong, forgetting that i know what they are saying, same as they will get confused if i say the French equivalent "stationnement, fin de semaine, traversier".  

 

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33 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

 

The big issue with speaking French with someone who struggles, is the way we learn French.  The language is thought to us through grammar rules.  Our brain then gets programmed that way.  Whereas in English you will listen to the content and "computate"  even if error made (see you got that), in French my brain first goes "error! error! error" even though i totally understand what you are trying to say.  Even simple thing, like using the wrong gender....  if you say "le table"  (instead of 'la table") i first hear the error, not that message....  It is really hard to deprogram.  

 

note that we get the same even within French.  My brain will react automatically with someone from France using Anglo words in the French language (parking, week-end, ferry) which i have learned to be wrong, forgetting that i know what they are saying, same as they will get confused if i say the French equivalent "stationnement, fin de semaine, traversier".  

 

These are interesting remarks & I can relate, at least to the point.   Neither English or French are my first language;  when learning French I found grammar to be the main problem (tres difficile!).   To the contrary, English grammar is super easy & almost came naturally.  Main issue I had was with phrases.  I.e.  You say "Plane takes off",  but you also "Take something from the pocket".   Same verb used but different meanings ("takes off",  "take from").  In my mother tongue these would be 2 totally different verbs!  

 

Problem with learning/speaking foreign language is that your brain first formulates the though in your mother language, then translates!  You become really fluent ONLY when your brain starts "thinking" in foreign language, thus bypassing translation phase.  This happens only after you live for awhile in foreign speaking environment. Interesting situation then arises;  when I talk now with someone in my 1st language I'll toss in English words automatically -- which sounds awful.

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14 minutes ago, Autumn Sky said:

These are interesting remarks & I can relate, at least to the point.   Neither English or French are my first language;  when learning French I found grammar to be the main problem (tres difficile!).   To the contrary, English grammar is super easy & almost came naturally.  Main issue I had was with phrases.  I.e.  You say "Plane takes off",  but you also "Take something from the pocket".   Same verb used but different meanings ("takes off",  "take from").  In my mother tongue these would be 2 totally different verbs!  

 

Problem with learning/speaking foreign language is that your brain first formulates the though in your mother language, then translates!  You become really fluent ONLY when your brain starts "thinking" in foreign language, thus bypassing translation phase.  This happens only after you live for awhile in foreign speaking environment. Interesting situation then arises;  when I talk now with someone in my 1st language I'll toss in English words automatically -- which sounds awful.

 

I am told by Anglophone linguist this is a misconception that Grammar rules are easier, and having had jobs where i had to write contractual documents, i think it may be true.  The issue is that no one learns these rules.  I found it quite frustrating because i was used, from French, to go back to the rules, and i would ask native English speakers "why is is like this?" and they never knew  (where i could recite the "accord du participe passé avec le verbe "être" " by heart....)...  

 

English is a conversation language in it's use, this is the big advantage.

 

as for speaking foreign language i totally agree, even funnier when your brain functions in 2 languages already- i can switch without even noticing.  When i spend time in Spanish speaking countries, if I get my brain in French I have a much easier time than if i'm in English...  even for sounds.  For example Japanese sounds are much more similar to French than English

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agreed, mostly.   When traveling in Latin America I found I could almost "speak", even if no puedo hablar espanol,  because of French.

 

Re grammar - it was my individual perception. Maybe because I learned English systematically in school for 8 yrs, while French was largely self taught.  Things tend to get easier whenever done in organized fashion.

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7 hours ago, Autumn Sky said:

agreed, mostly.   When traveling in Latin America I found I could almost "speak", even if no puedo hablar espanol,  because of French.

 

Re grammar - it was my individual perception. Maybe because I learned English systematically in school for 8 yrs, while French was largely self taught.  Things tend to get easier whenever done in organized fashion.

 

I didn't get taught English grammar when I went to school in England because ministers had decided at the time that it was too ...easy. Fast forward a few years and companies were complaining about the English skills of school leavers. So whilst I can tell you that something is right or wrong in English, I don't have the vocabulary or explanation to say why, I can just tell you what it should be. Or I try to explain it in terms of all grammar I know from learning French, German and Spanish (I've forgotten all my Spanish, don't quiz me). So, my grammar knowledge is all in foreign languages and is non-existent in my mother tongue.... 😝

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3 hours ago, Steve F said:

 

I didn't get taught English grammar when I went to school in England because ministers had decided at the time that it was too ...easy. Fast forward a few years and companies were complaining about the English skills of school leavers. So whilst I can tell you that something is right or wrong in English, I don't have the vocabulary or explanation to say why, I can just tell you what it should be. Or I try to explain it in terms of all grammar I know from learning French, German and Spanish (I've forgotten all my Spanish, don't quiz me). So, my grammar knowledge is all in foreign languages and is non-existent in my mother tongue.... 😝

 

😀

 And this was my experience working with anglophones, I kept asking "why is it like that?", and they never knew, so I assume the teaching in Canada was similar.  Ironically i was thought English in Quebec by Francophone teachers, so they had introduced French Grammar concept in our teaching of English- which will explain why many of my compadres were awful at English- we didn't learn conversation we learned "English irregular verbs"... 

Ask an Anglosaxon about "irregular verbs" and they will look at you with a blank stare, but this is a French grammar concept (and most Latin language i assume), we learned conjugation of verbs mechanically, so for present tense verbs in -ER

je chante

tu chantes

il/elle chante

nous chantons

vous chantez

ils/elles chantent

and then we learned verbs that don't fit the mechanics, the "irregular verbs", and memorise the "exception that confirms the rules", like "manger" where which in first person plural is not "mangons, but mangeons" (i can also explain the rule why, blah, blah, blah) 

 

So when i was thought English "the eat"    it was labelled an "irregular verb", because in the past tense you didn't use the formulaic "add -ED" at the end, it was "ate" not "eated".  And we would spend lessons memorising the exceptions.  and this went on.....  we didn't use it, we just tried to memorise it, like in French.

 

so when i pushed further in English, and suddenly i had a job in an Insurance company where we had to right marketing proposal, and legal contract, so something we could later be taken to court with, I wanted the Rules, so I could apply to next situation all i got was "i don know, it's just like that".... this was pre Google, so not really an easy "Siri, why do they do this?" 

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6 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

and so another Alamy forum post takes a totally different tangent.  

 

 

Bonjour Foxytoul, toujours là? 

 

Hopefully, Foxytoul is still in the building because he/she has a lot of translating to do.

 

In school, we were taught French by well-meaning anglophones. Our French textbooks made no reference at all to Quebec culture. I came out the back end of the PSBGM (Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal) being able to write "Parisian" French quite well but had trouble carrying out a basic conversation in the street. Fortunately, I lived for some time in a small French Canadian (as we used to say before it became politically incorrect) village on the South Shore of Montreal, so most of my friends were francophones. They of course were keen on learning anglais from me so that they could absorb more cool American culture on TV. However, they did teach me to swear well, which I still do. Tabarnak!

 

P.S.  My French improved a lot after finding a French Canadian girlfriend and having jobs in the real world where I actually had to speak some French.

Edited by John Mitchell
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50 minutes ago, John Mitchell said:

 

 

 

P.S.  My French improved a lot after finding a French Canadian girlfriend

Une femme, c'est la solution a tous les problemes! 💘 ❤️ 💞

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1 minute ago, Autumn Sky said:

Une femme, c'est la solution a tous les problemes! 💘 ❤️ 💞

 

Chercher la femme? Having a partner in the language you're learning is the next best thing after actually living in the country itself.

I thought all you need is love? 🙃

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7 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

and so another Alamy forum post takes a totally different tangent.  

 

 

Bonjour Foxytoul, toujours là? 

 

Well, I try to keep on photography generally, but I'm also a linguaphile, so... 🙂

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1 hour ago, John Mitchell said:

 

 

In school, we were taught French by well-meaning anglophones. Our French textbooks made no reference at all to Quebec culture. I came out the back end of the PSBGM (Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal) being able to write "Parisian" French quite well but had trouble carrying out a basic conversation in the street. Fortunately, I lived for some time in a small French Canadian (as we used to say before it became politically incorrect) village on the South Shore of Montreal, so most of my friends were francophones. They of course were keen on learning anglais from me so that they could absorb more cool American culture on TV. However, they did teach me to swear well, which I still do. Tabarnak!

 

P.S.  My French improved a lot after finding a French Canadian girlfriend and having jobs in the real world where I actually had to speak some French.

 

 

and i had same experience in reverse with English, being raised early on in more Anglo area west of Montreal (Hudson). also same with the Anglophone girlfriend and job once I move to Toronto....  

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7 hours ago, meanderingemu said:

 

😀

 And this was my experience working with anglophones, I kept asking "why is it like that?", and they never knew, so I assume the teaching in Canada was similar.  Ironically i was thought English in Quebec by Francophone teachers, so they had introduced French Grammar concept in our teaching of English- which will explain why many of my compadres were awful at English- we didn't learn conversation we learned "English irregular verbs"... 

Ask an Anglosaxon about "irregular verbs" and they will look at you with a blank stare, but this is a French grammar concept (and most Latin language i assume), we learned conjugation of verbs mechanically, so for present tense verbs in -ER

je chante

tu chantes

il/elle chante

nous chantons

vous chantez

ils/elles chantent

and then we learned verbs that don't fit the mechanics, the "irregular verbs", and memorise the "exception that confirms the rules", like "manger" where which in first person plural is not "mangons, but mangeons" (i can also explain the rule why, blah, blah, blah) 

 

So when i was thought English "the eat"    it was labelled an "irregular verb", because in the past tense you didn't use the formulaic "add -ED" at the end, it was "ate" not "eated".  And we would spend lessons memorising the exceptions.  and this went on.....  we didn't use it, we just tried to memorise it, like in French.

 

so when i pushed further in English, and suddenly i had a job in an Insurance company where we had to right marketing proposal, and legal contract, so something we could later be taken to court with, I wanted the Rules, so I could apply to next situation all i got was "i don know, it's just like that".... this was pre Google, so not really an easy "Siri, why do they do this?" 

 

Are you Quebecois? There were 4 quebecois in my halls of residence when I was studying in Strasbourg, and when they talked the local lingo, it was like another completely different language! Mon char is my car and all that.... I do think English is relatively easy to learn at a basic level, but then, I'm biased! But very difficult to talk fluently, like most other languages I guess. I've taught some English informally, yes I'm aware there's a lot of irregular verbs and rules in English. That's the one advantage about German, the rules are never broken, it's just that the rules are really really complicated. 16 the's

Nom. Der die das die

Acc. Den die das die

Dat. Dem der dem den

Gen. Des der des der

 

Painful 😝

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Autumn Sky said:

Une femme, c'est la solution a tous les problemes! 💘 ❤️ 💞

 

...  le début. 😢

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Just now, John Mitchell said:

 

...  le début. 😢

I knew, I KNEW you were going to say that!  Can't live with them, can't live without them

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