What Marketing Channels Drive Clients To You & What Kind of Budget Do You Need?

[PhilHalfmann]

Greetings Everybody,

 

Let's assume you are an experienced photographer who has his basics (website, social media profiles, paying clients, etc.) in order...and you mainly do paid shoots for fashion & beauty brands.

 

How do you get your work seen by more people who matter...who are looking to hire a photographer?

 

I was wondering what kind/mix of marketing channels work(ed) best for you to grow your business...are you doing it yourself...or at what point are you hiring/paying somebody...and what kind of budget do you need?

 

Doing It Yourself

 

• facebook & instagram ads
• google ads
• directly contacting/pitching brands
• print your pictures and exhibit them in places of business for sale
• something else (please specify)

 

 

If you decide to pay for ads on FB/IG or Google, what kind of budget per month makes sense...$5/day...$150/month?

 

Which platform, FB/IG or Google Ads, works better for you?

 

What's an average success rate (how many people click your ad and hire you) in %? Let's say 100 people clicked your ad and 2 people ended up hiring you...then your success rate is 2%

 

 

 

 

Hiring Somebody

 

• joining a photography agency
• hiring a PR agency
• hire social media marketing agency

 

 

Have you ever worked with any of the aforementioned agents...meaning you paid them a monthly retainer? I mean somebody you pay and they actively work on your behalf, they seek out clients...not simply having a portfolio on someone's website.

 

Your feedback is appreciated!

 

 

 

[Steve F]

Phil,

This is an Alamy stock photography Forum. You haven't uploaded any images to Alamy for a year and your questions are not stock related. I'm sure there are Forums out there for what you're asking.

Steve

[Brian Yarvin]

Steve, I wouldn't be so sure. Indeed, if Phil isn't looking to do weddings, retail portraits or events, there isn't much good business advice out there. 

 

Only a few of us have solid commercial experience of any sort and can see how awful internet tutorials on the subject are without doing a bit of crashing and burning ourselves. The other problem is that those of us who've been there can easily see Phil's problem and can't really see a path forward because unknowable details get in the way.

 

On the forums, I'm known as a food photographer - a solid commercial specialty if there ever was one - I can assure you that almost every food photography tutorial on the web will take you farther away from success, not closer to it.

[Steve F]

5 minutes ago, Brian Yarvin said:

Steve, I wouldn't be so sure. Indeed, if Phil isn't looking to do weddings, retail portraits or events, there isn't much good business advice out there. 

 

Only a few of us have solid commercial experience of any sort and can see how awful internet tutorials on the subject are without doing a bit of crashing and burning ourselves.

 

Fair enough. Not surprised there's a lot of know nothings posting YouTube videos. 

[PhilHalfmann]

@Brian Yarvin that's correct...the internet/YouTube is full with content showing you how not to do it. 

 

I'm sharing it here because you have to be a successful professional photographer NOWADAYS to know the answers to my questions...with all due respect, I don't care what worked 10-20 years ago.

 

In other words, let's say you have $10,000 laying around you don't need and you want to invest that money into your career...what's the best way to go about it...from your point of view? and why?

 

Thank you guys

 

 

[Allan Bell]

17 minutes ago, PhilHalfmann said:

@Brian Yarvin that's correct...the internet/YouTube is full with content showing you how not to do it. 

 

I'm sharing it here because you have to be a successful professional photographer NOWADAYS to know the answers to my questions...with all due respect, I don't care what worked 10-20 years ago.

 

In other words, let's say you have $10,000 laying around you don't need and you want to invest that money into your career...what's the best way to go about it...from your point of view? and why?

 

Thank you guys

 

 

 

Hi PhilHalfmann, I am NOT being facetious here but if I had that quantity of cash lying around I would be putting into a high interest fixed rate bond for a few years.

 

It would get me more than I earn through photography.  Yes people I know what the OP is asking but to me it does not look like a good investment for a business.

 

Allan

 

[Brian Yarvin]

Phil - I seem to recall that you were seeking work in fashion photography, am I correct? Is there a lifestyle element in your work too?

 

Alan - right now, there's a boom going on in major market media photography. Phil could ignore it or he could make some moves that put him in a position to earn that for a single day's work.  I would like to respectfully suggest that Phil not quit.

[PhilHalfmann]

@Allan Bell you missed the point.

 

@Brian Yarvin I mainly shoot fashion & beauty for brands...some shoots have a lifestyle element to it...outdoor...etc...for example, recently I shot these:

 

https://www.the-prestige-magazine.com/2023/02/17/a-world-of-strangers/

 

 

 

To be more specific, my goal is to work with brands more often that can afford $10,000+ budgets photoshoots...which means the brand has to be of a certain size...let's say it's a fashion brand selling t-shirts...if they have a $20 profit margin/shirt then they need to sell 500 t-shirt to break even...hence we are not talking about your local fashion boutique.

 

We are talking about brands that are working with PR agencies...agents...etc...think Bruce Weber...famous fashion photographer (Abercrombie & Fitch campaigns)...I worked with him in the past.

 

Agents have a network and access to job opportunities other people don't...hence they can charge for their services...is it worth pursuing this route...or not?

 

 

[Rebecca Ore]

41 minutes ago, PhilHalfmann said:

Agents have a network and access to job opportunities other people don't...hence they can charge for their services...is it worth pursuing this route...or not?

 

Literary agents charge 15% of gross; art agents charge 50% of gross.  My brother had a photographer housemate who's now working out of Miami.  He showed his portfolio around Charlotte ad agencies, never got into credentials, and it didn't sound like he had to pay an agent.  My experience in writing was that if you had to pay an agent you were getting ripped off.  I don't know if that's true in photography or not.  My belief on all the arts is that most people who don't get recognition and some who do are not as good as most of the people who get recognized, and W.H. Auden's quip was  that more people get more recognition than they deserve than fail to get recognized.   If an experienced agent doesn't believe they can make money from your sales (15% to 50% depending on your field), you're wasting money paying the kind of agent who takes on people for the money.  Science Fiction Writers of America has a web page warning people about scams and people still fall for them. 

 

I would be very dubious of photographers' agents who required a monthly retainer, but I'm just me.  

 

The trouble with monthly retainers is the agent can make more money with lots of those than actually finding assignments and negotiating contracts for you.  And if you've signed a contract to pay a retainer, you're on the hook for that money for the length of the contract.  Maybe it's different in commercial photography, but I doubt it.  At certain income levels, hiring an entertainment/copyright lawyer rather than an agent makes sense, but that's Stephen King or major established star levels of money, not someone making $45K to $100K gross a year.  If the agent you're talking to won't give you clients to contact, that's a very red flag.

 

[PhilHalfmann]

@Rebecca Ore thank you for sharing.

 

I'm aware there are a lot of "scams" out there...on the other hand there are also still people out there that want to make $ in the long run and are looking for quality.

 

I thinking along the line of e.g. the professional sports world...let's take soccer or basketball as an example.

 

On the one hand you have the clubs and on the other hand are the players and their agents...depending how good you are as a player (1st, 2nd or 3rd division) your income potential varies...yet once you attain a certain level of play you can play all over the world and in various leagues...and you have representatives (agent & manager) who make that happen for the player...the player "only" focuses on the sport...not the business aspect.

 

Let's say you are a talented player not entering the draft...you have an agent who represents you because he/she believes they can make money with you when a club signs you to a long term contract. 

 

Now apply the same scenario to photography...if you have a certain skill set/portfolio, you can manage artists & models on set to achieve a certain outcome, you create & adhere to mood boards, and you DELIVER OUTSTANDING RESULTS (marketing numbers) etc. then why wouldn't an agent be helpful to you? Or is my way of approaching this wrong?

 

Let's say an agent lands a larger brand for 1 photoshoot campaign and the pictures are great and the campaign a success...why not shoot more campaigns for that client or become attractive for other brands?

 

How you pay the agent is negotiable...retainer vs commission % for example...but how do you get to play in the 1st or 2nd devision of photography in the long run? do you understand what I mean?

 

 

Or in other words, how do I showcase my skills to people who matter so I may be chosen for a larger project? Just like a player who enters the NBA draft and presents his/her skill set to the potential teams to be chosen...

Edited June 26, 2023 by PhilHalfmann
had to add a question for clarification...

[Rebecca Ore]

Basically, the main thing an agent does is negotiate the contract so you can stay friends with the editor (art director).  If you're paying a retainer and ARE NOT making major sales, he's not motivated to negotiate the best contracts.  If you're already making major market sales, retainer might be a lower $$$ figure than percentage.   If not, not. 

 

Do remarkable mailers, maybe?   Do remarkable ads for smaller designers, crafts people, maybe?  How do art directors hire photographers?   Always through an agency; direct contacts, seeing work.  Ask them.   How do designers and product manufacturers hire ad agencies?  Ask them. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rebecca Ore
Second time with the story.

[Brian Yarvin]

Phillip; thanks for sharing the link. With the clarity you've offered, I'm going to re-state what I said before, you won't get much help on the internet - there's just too much noise.

 

May I suggest a site that started as a food photography resource and has expanded into a place for the tiny number of people who aspire to be at the top of the commercial photography world: Tin House Studio. Start with his YouTube channel; there's lots about working with agents and plenty more about taking your work to the next step.

 

BTW ... if it were me, I'd spend most of that money on my portfolio (which probably won't work for stock) and the rest on a good mailing list. This is absolutely not a comment on your work. Instead, it's my observation that the best people are always trying to be even better.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Brian Yarvin

[PhilHalfmann]

@Rebecca Ore I know how to land clients (designers, art directors, creative directors, etc.)...that is not the issue.

 

@Brian Yarvin sure, I'll check out the site. Thank you. As I previously mentioned...let's say you have a great portfolio...website...social media...paying clients...

 

The main "issue" is that you can't develop business relationships anymore and grow because, amongst other factors, your contact person (designer, art director, etc.) changes every 12 - 18 months and with them the directions for photoshoots.

 

For example, I shoot for some major European brands...in this case a beauty brand...I'm supposed to shoot their online marketing campaign for the European market. So we setup 3 different photoshoots...25 models in total...5 locations.

 

On the last day of the 3rd photoshoot I get a call from the brand...the "new" creative director introduces herself and tells me that they change their entire direction for the campaign...hence they won't be using any of my pictures...thousands of $$$ "wasted" by the brand...not my money...that's not the issue.

 

Because your contact person changes so frequently mailing lists etc are useless...so landing a client with repeat business is like chasing the holy grail. Since my work is good enough, based on marketing numbers not my personal opinion, I want to be able to throw my hat in the ring to be considered for major shoots...not here and there...but on a regular basis...hence I'm thinking along the lines of working with an "agent"...like a sports agent for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by PhilHalfmann

[Rebecca Ore]

I second the recommendation for the Tin Eye site.  The shifting personnel at any media is common.   My Harper-Collins editor is now with the publisher I didn't want to stay with.   A good agent keeps up to date with the changes, and makes you money.   The Tin Eye channel has a video on how to see if your photos are good enough.  The list ends with submitting to agents.  A form rejection is nope.   A personalized rejection is "yes, but we have other photographers who fill that niche, but stay in touch."

 

 

 

 

[Brian Yarvin]

Phil, I'm in a funny position - I don't agree with your comments and don't want to debate either - I've seen things go every possible way. 

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

On 26/06/2023 at 12:44, PhilHalfmann said:

let's say you have $10,000...invest that money into your career...what's the best way

99% here don't shoot what your are shooting
& don't know how to pursue what you want.
Very lucky BrianY responded as he may

be only one here that could authoritatively...?

 

My generic advice:
imitate success; find those doing what you want

& take path they do to get what you want;

are there not forums for your kind of shooting

where some will answer & then its on you to

filter out noise from solid advice...?

 

AllanB: what's your best APY? 6%?
that's $600 on $10K tied up for a year...?

my dumbed-down Wall Street pursuits

require little understanding & have gotten

me over 6X that in 2023 alone so far:
(its almost certain to retreat some, but...)

 

 

Brokerage-my account

37.91%

 

 

Russell 2000 Index

6.83%

 

 

NASDAQ Composite Index

32.58%

 

 

Dow Jones Industrial Average

1.91%

 

 

S&P 500 Index

15.54%

[Rebecca Ore]

15 hours ago, Brian Yarvin said:

Phil, I'm in a funny position - I don't agree with your comments and don't want to debate either - I've seen things go every possible way. 

 

 

Sending an email to the guy who runs Tin House might give him an answer to whether good photo agents charge or not.  They don't in either the movie world or in the commercial publishing world.  I can't image photography being radically different, but I don't know that for a fact.  Art agents seem to charge 50% to represent painters to galleries, but smaller regional galleries also can be approached directly  (one brother is a smaller regional gallery artist and CPA).

[shearwater]

On 27/06/2023 at 08:28, Brian Yarvin said:

 

May I suggest a site that started as a food photography resource and has expanded into a place for the tiny number of people who aspire to be at the top of the commercial photography world: Tin House Studio. Start with his YouTube channel; there's lots about working with agents and plenty more about taking your work to the next step.

 

Very good recommendation, Brian. Thank you!

[Brian Yarvin]

On 15/07/2023 at 10:55, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

Very lucky BrianY responded as he may

be only one here that could authoritatively...?

 

My generic advice:
imitate success; find those doing what you want

& take path they do to get what you want;

are there not forums for your kind of shooting

where some will answer & then its on you to

filter out noise from solid advice...?

 

Thank you for the kind words Jeff. In my experience, there aren't forums out there for what Phil is trying to do - except tangentially Tin House on Facebook. Even then, not really, Scott and the Tin House crowd are more about still life and studio and Phil's competitors have a style and lifestyle slant that's really important.

 

His problem - and the problem for hundreds of others (including a much younger Brian Yarvin) was the noise made by people who have no idea what's at stake here. Weekend warriors, small-town wedding photographers, and the whole strange world that calls itself "model photography" are out there and blinding the way forward.

 

Phil's problem is finding successful people to imitate and I think he's on his way.

 

BTW ... it's not uncommon for these sorts of shoots to pay between ten and thirty thousand dollars/pounds/euros per day. It's also common for shoots like that to produce day labor for assistants, techs, and stylists that pay in the hundreds per day. Giving up a shot at that sort of payday is something that could haunt you for a very long time.

[Rebecca Ore]

On 15/07/2023 at 11:49, Rebecca Ore said:

 

 

Sending an email to the guy who runs Tin House might give him an answer to whether good photo agents charge or not.  They don't in either the movie world or in the commercial publishing world.  I can't image photography being radically different, but I don't know that for a fact.  Art agents seem to charge 50% to represent painters to galleries, but smaller regional galleries also can be approached directly  (one brother is a smaller regional gallery artist and CPA).

Saw a Tin House video on getting an agent last night that talked about representing photographers for 15% of gross.  Sports agents are dealing with a completely different thing.  Ask questions of people who are big market photographers who have agents.

[Brian Yarvin]

Rebecca, I'm glad to see you took a look at Scott and Tin House. It's a very narrow perspective for a tiny group of people. But even if such a world is far in your past or not part of your career plans, knowing what's happening at that level really changes your view of what's possible in the media photography world.

[Rebecca Ore]

1 hour ago, Brian Yarvin said:

Rebecca, I'm glad to see you took a look at Scott and Tin House. It's a very narrow perspective for a tiny group of people. But even if such a world is far in your past or not part of your career plans, knowing what's happening at that level really changes your view of what's possible in the media photography world.

 

I interviewed for a admin job with a NYC photographer in the 1970s, didn't get it.   Around the time, I worked as short term researcher for Eleanor Lambert, a fashion publicist, which gave me a quick history of women's fashion.   At 75, I'm not going to go into major studio productions like Scott's, but what he says and who he is fascinates me as a fiction writer -- we creatures of wide but shallow knowledge.

 

 

[wiskerke]

The Agent List is a good place to search for agents in a particular city or something like celebrity portrait Berlin or architecture Miami.

You probably are already familiar with A Photo Editor. That link comes from his site. He gives lists of real commission fees both on his website and on Instagram. Plus a nice collection of photographer's promos.

I noticed the b/w prints behind your models and one wearing a large hat. Maybe take a look at this guy. Please don't copy him, just for reference.

 

wim