Nikon DF officially announced>>>this or Sony A7?

[Linda]

I just read the announcement for the new Nikon Df full frame camera.

Though quite expensive...$2700 for the body only, you will be able to use any Nikon lens going back to 1959.

 

http://petapixel.com/2013/11/04/nikon-officially-unleashes-df-f-series-slr-styling-d4-power-inside/

 

 

It has the same sensor as the D4  and processor of the D800 so I'm sure the quality will be amazing. I was actually considering the Sony A7 but their lack of lenses for that format has turned me off to the system at this time. Also,it seems like they have to many formats and lens mounts. I'd be really peeved after a big investment that they'd retire the line if it was not a big seller.

 

I'm looking forward to the reviews and images from the Nikon Df. Anyone considering?

 

My last experiences with Nikon were not good. I no longer buy the first run of any electronics.

Oil spots,focus issues,etc..

 

L

[Gervais Montacute]

Yes you should wait and see for about 6 months. Prices also tend to drop after some time. And like you semi mooted, it's the lenses that count. A camera is for Christmas, a lens is fo life.

[Linda]

I've been buying cameras for professional use for 35 years. Prices have never scared me off! I've jumped in too soon though and ended up with cameras that have problems that were not discovered for awhile.That is why I plan on waiting.Second reason is come winter,for me,events die down and I don't like the cold to go out and take pictures so it's not worth it to invest a system that I won't be able to put thru the paces until spring.Unless of course I get some jobs on the west coast again.

 

 

L

[David Kilpatrick]

As all the existing professional Nikon full frame cameras will also use any lens back to 1959 in exactly the same way, putting this out as a special feature of the DF is just PR spin. The camera actually works almost exactly like a D600 with a D4 sensor, and some funky retro controls added for an alternative user interface (it retains the original interface as well but it's missing the front control wheel).

 

The Sony A7 takes all lenses from every system ever made. It does cost between £20 and £300 for the adaptors, but it will for example operate with full autofocus plus IS on all Canon EF lenses, there's an adaptor to do the same with Minolta A lenses, a fully automatic one for Nikon AF-S/G, and of course various options for Leica rangefinder, Contax rangefinder - and for my outfit, tilt adaptors for M42 thread - would like the tilt-shift adaptor too.

 

In contrast, the size of the Nikon lens throat and its rear register mean that Nikon is a system for which no other lens make can be adapted (without engineering work).

[Linda]

Thank you for setting this straight David.

Well,Sony quality..I compare to the IQ of the the RX1 was amazing. But don't the adaptors lower the quality of the image? Or make them much heavier?   

 

 

 

As all the existing professional Nikon full frame cameras will also use any lens back to 1959 in exactly the same way, putting this out as a special feature of the DF is just PR spin. The camera actually works almost exactly like a D600 with a D4 sensor, and some funky retro controls added for an alternative user interface (it retains the original interface as well but it's missing the front control wheel).

 

The Sony A7 takes all lenses from every system ever made. It does cost between £20 and £300 for the adaptors, but it will for example operate with full autofocus plus IS on all Canon EF lenses, there's an adaptor to do the same with Minolta A lenses, a fully automatic one for Nikon AF-S/G, and of course various options for Leica rangefinder, Contax rangefinder - and for my outfit, tilt adaptors for M42 thread - would like the tilt-shift adaptor too.

 

In contrast, the size of the Nikon lens throat and its rear register mean that Nikon is a system for which no other lens make can be adapted (without engineering work).

[Ed Rooney]

Ah, winter in Chicago, not really the best time to wander the streets looking for meaningful images . . . although I do see some meaningful keywords: blue skin, shivering, heavy gloves, double-thick watch cap.  My plan is to try to setup for tabletop in my tiny flat this winter. And maybe I'll finally get to doing the scanning I always say I'm going to do. (I know you're not a street shooter, Linda.  )

[Linda]

Ah, winter in Chicago, not really the best time to wander the streets looking for meaningful images . . . although I do see some meaningful keywords: blue skin, shivering, heavy gloves, double-thick watch cap.  My plan is to try to setup for tabletop in my tiny flat this winter. And maybe I'll finally get to doing the scanning I always say I'm going to do. (I know you're not a street shooter, Linda.  )

I do the table top thing in the winter too. I'm glad my condo has a grocery store and gym so I don't have to even go out when it's 60mph winds,2 feet of snow and just plain nasty. I'm so far behind on my scanning it's scary!

 

I do have some winter photos taken in front of my building or thru the floor to ceiling windows in the lobby. That's as far into winter shooting as I'm going to get.

I am a weather wimp!

 

L

[David Kilpatrick]

The adaptors for A7/7r are just a hollow tube with electronic connections - image quality is maximum, contrast detect focus, no back focusing at all, no mirror flap - on the A7 not even a first shutter curtain - zero vibration before the image is taken.

[Ed Rooney]

Linda, when I worked for American Airlines I would go up from Dallas to Chicago several times a year to oversee and sign off on the print runs for the brochures and posters. They always put me in a good hotel, but I had to drive out to the printing plant every four hours, and was on call all night.  Chicago has a rough winter and a rough summer . . . good food and good music though. 

[Linda]

Linda, when I worked for American Airlines I would go up from Dallas to Chicago several times a year to oversee and sign off on the print runs for the brochures and posters. They always put me in a good hotel, but I had to drive out to the printing plant every four hours, and was on call all night.  Chicago has a rough winter and a rough summer . . . good food and good music though. 

Were you staying near the airport or near north side? Before our real estate and hotel boom,the go to hotel was the Ambassador East or West.

Summers here can get too humid.

Winters too cold;you are right. Always considered move to California,I just no longer enjoy driving to get things done.I've not had a car in years and I don't miss it. Lucky we do have excellent public transportation here.

 

L

[Ed Rooney]

This was back at the start of the '80s, Linda. I stayed in several of the downtown luxury chain hotels . . . but the Hyatt at the Water Tower is the only one I remember . . . a very nice European style hotel, and new at the time. Hotels come and go. The printing operation was out past Cicero, and driving out there in the cold at 4AM I imagined I would be stopped by some of Al Capon's boys. (I have a rich fantasy life.) 

 

How is the noise in this new Nikon? 

[TABan]

Thom Hogan has an interesting take on the Df: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/digital-confusion-with-the.html

 

Boy I hope Canon doesn't follow suit and come out with a D-ae.

[Chuck Nacke]

Linda and Ed,

 

Spent ten years in Moscow, Russia not Idaho and it was cold, miserable and dark.

I use to fax my agent in NYC that it was 20 below c and f2.8 at a 30th with

800 ASA film...Funny part about it was that my 1967 Nikon F's worked just fine

in any weather and I still have some of those lenses that I now use on my D700.

 

PS I saw pictures of the DF and was not that impressed, I was never a fan of the

FE's or FA's. A digital version of the SP would "Float my Boat."

 

Chuck

[Ed Rooney]

That is serious cold, Chuck. Remind me not to complain about 20 above this winter.

 

I see you got yourself a D700. How do you like it? 

[Linda]

I had the D700 and other than being only like 12MP it was an excellent camera and for me,far better than the D600 in many ways.

 

L

[Linda]

Linda and Ed,

 

Spent ten years in Moscow, Russia not Idaho and it was cold, miserable and dark.

I use to fax my agent in NYC that it was 20 below c and f2.8 at a 30th with

800 ASA film...Funny part about it was that my 1967 Nikon F's worked just fine

in any weather and I still have some of those lenses that I now use on my D700.

 

PS I saw pictures of the DF and was not that impressed, I was never a fan of the

FE's or FA's. A digital version of the SP would "Float my Boat."

 

Chuck

Chuck,Chicago has had 20 below and worse in years past with the wind chill factored in. The last few winters have been more mild. But after 0 does it really matter? It's 10 below stupid after that. Dislike button on winter.

[Chuck Nacke]

Linda,

 

There were many days in Moscow that -20 C was mild. Siberia on the other hand

was so cold that water would freeze before it hit the ground... The only cameras

I had that would work in that kind of weather were my old Nikon F's without

motors or meters.

 

I've been told my factory reps that unmodified Digitals don't like extreme cold,

sensor issues.

[Christopher Price]

Can't help but wade in here, but my D200 works quite well in the cold, which since I am just north of Edmonton in Canada has already started. Have used it for photographing winter birds (hand held with vibration reduction) and for photographing the aurora. Have yet to try my D800 in the cold yet.

This is the first I have heard of this new Nikon, so would be interested in hearing more.

Chris

[Ray]

David
I went to the launch of the A7 and A7R ready to buy, but I was told the adapters for other manufacturers were 3rd party products and could only offer manual focus and manual aperture for Nikon, extremely slow autofocus for Canon (up to one second) and they admitted the Leica one had optical problems. The Sony adapter however did allow use of Sony DSLR lenses. It was a deal breaker for me. I went ready to be amazed but was totally disappointed. The A7 & A7R had only one lens available at launch with another four coming next year.. none faster than F2.8. So if you want a fast lens you have to use an adapter with those shortcomings and lenses from another system or manufacturer. That means this otherwise amazing mirrorless body is useless to me. I can't jump into it totally because there is only one lens and if I want to use any of my Nikon lenses they will be manual. I expect better than that in 2013 especially from a company like Sony. I want to be able to switch to manual when it suits me and use autofocus the rest of the time. This is not a cheap camera, and it boasts some cutting edge features so there shouldn't be any excuses. I really wanted to get into these cameras and the Sony system, but why would I if it doesn't fulfill my needs? I really think Sony offered the A7 & A7R cameras too early, because they feared the Df might be a mirrorless competitor,.. and of course Christmas is coming up. Corporate greed triumphs again!
However the Df does interest me because of the sensor, so does the D600 or 610 as a lighter alternative to my D800 which remains my main camera. The problem is that the Df is way too expensive for what it offers and it is still using a mirror reflex optical viewfinder which adds size and weight. That means it is not as light or compact as the new Sony cameras. So, what do I do?
I have been playing with the Fujifilm X system and even though it is a cropped sensor the images and lenses stack up better for my secondary needs than anything Sony is offering at the moment. The problem with Fujifilm bodies is that the ergonomics suck - they haven't had the benefit of decades of development and refinement. They too have adapters but my Nikon and Pentax lenses are manual when using them.
In the end the camera and system you choose is the one that suits your needs and pocket the best. My problem is there are way too many choices and none of them measure up.

The Sony A7 takes all lenses from every system ever made. It does cost between £20 and £300 for the adaptors, but it will for example operate with full autofocus plus IS on all Canon EF lenses, there's an adaptor to do the same with Minolta A lenses, a fully automatic one for Nikon AF-S/G, and of course various options for Leica rangefinder, Contax rangefinder - and for my outfit, tilt adaptors for M42 thread - would like the tilt-shift adaptor too.

In contrast, the size of the Nikon lens throat and its rear register mean that Nikon is a system for which no other lens make can be adapted (without engineering work).

[David Kilpatrick]

Ray, there are some things you can't expect and some things which may be solved. The A7 and A7R are like digital backs you can fit to anything, but of course they are also mostly like manual backs. The A7 may have PD on sensor but even that only works with selected Sony lenses, and both may have phase detect but it doesn't work at all with Tamron and Sigma lenses as they have the wrong kind of motor control (but if they have IS, it functions). Metabones has managed to make a Canon EF adaptor which transfers both aperture control and AF, and powers IS. Of course the focus is slow, try contrast detect focus on the 6D for example, it's similarly slow - and the 70D, bless it, is supposed to be good but actually it fairly sucks.

 

It's likely that Metabones, Novoflex and others will make more adaptors which turn the A7 models into a sort of 'universal back'. There is no problem with them being 3rd party, at photokina 2010 Sony invited all of the 3rd party makers to have a display on their own stand and announced that the E-mount was an open standard.

 

We'll just have to wait and see, after all, no-one is really using these cameras yet.

 

David

[Ray]

Hi David,.. 

 

This is 2013 not 1940. We should be able to expect a very hyped new camera system will have enough lenses to cover the range.

 

It is particulalry disappointing because the bodies have everything I want packed into a compact light and upgradeable body. It's the lack of lenses that let it down and even with the Metabones adapters the system is not up to scratch. 

 

I got out of the habit of manual focus back in the 70s so I prefer autofocus if my subject is moving or the situation is changing. These adapters don't offer that for Nikon.

 

I don't need all the technology and compact light design if I am going to use it in a studio. I could use any old fashioned lump of a camera.

 

These cameras will shine in places where their size and light weight are an advantage and it's there that we'll need a few fast lightweight lenses to cover the usual range.By the time Sony gets its act together I am sure someone else will have something comparable. 

 

And the reps told me there are no definite plans for the lenses, but apart from one f1.4 portrait lens we should expect f4 zooms and f2.8 primes because they'll be aiming for light compact design rather than fast glass. So it might be up to other lens manufacturers like Sigma to offer some fast glass. At the moment there is one lens available and two more will be on sale early next year.

 

I think my disappointment was also heightened by the hype from the likes of Trey Ratcliff and his disciples who were all making loud noises about switching completely - declaring the DSLR dead.

In fact he and Karen Hutton have posted pics from the cameras here  http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2013/10/31/the-future-is-here-and-sony-delivers/

 

It's like being offered a Ferrari with one wheel and an adapter to fit other manufacturers rims.

 

Ray

[Ed Rooney]

Maybe somebody should explain to Sony that cameras and lenses are interdependent.  

 

[David Kilpatrick]

The camera was 'invented' between early August and now, so it's not a bad item to bring to market so fast. I guess the argument would be that PD on-sensor doesn't benefit at all from anything faster than f/2.8 (it is actually working optimally at f/5.6) and the sensor is twice as noise-free as anything else made etc etc. I value f/1.8 or f/1.4 a lot on small sensors but I do not want that size of lens on a body like this, you just can't make them small enough. The RX1 35mm f/2 is a very special case design which could not be used, I suspect, with a focal plane shutter. I'm not entirely happy with these new cameras, for different reasons, but I can see a place for one in my kit.