Barcelona store: buy something or pay to take photos

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

https://www.businessinsider.nl/a-barcelona-store-put-up-a-sign-to-warn-tourists-that-theyd-be-charged-for-snapping-selfies-and-not-buying-anything/

 

let's see if they lose business...unintended consequences...biting the hand that feeds them;

Spanish photographers should express outrage, IMO...

[Rebecca Ore]

4 hours ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

https://www.businessinsider.nl/a-barcelona-store-put-up-a-sign-to-warn-tourists-that-theyd-be-charged-for-snapping-selfies-and-not-buying-anything/

 

let's see if they lose business...unintended consequences...biting the hand that feeds them;

Spanish photographers should express outrage, IMO...

 

Lots of tourists simply are rude.  This is going to be especially bad if tour guides bring in groups at one time who aren't buying.   It's easy enough to buy something or ask permission.  I ask permission.   Most of my interior shots of from places where I am a customer.   I also don't go looking for colorful poverty, having met photographers who were doing that in rural Virginia when I lived there. 

 

Wikimedia has a good page on individual national laws.

 

Most selfies are terrible photos, anyway, just some bozo or bozette posing in front of famous buildings or annoying a horse or a bison.  I applaud the bison who ripped the jeans off the tourist who got too close.  I kept my car and the width of a road and some more space between me and a bear once.  Photos sucked, only an 105mm lens, but I didn't have trouble with the bear.   Respect what you're shooting.

 

Mayan women in traditional dress are notoriously hostile to being photographed.   A friend who toured Guatemala found that if she bought cloth and hired the women as guides, they had no trouble being photographed.  The Mayan women in traditional dress know they are among the main tourist attractions in Guatemala (and the rest were built by their ancestors), but they never get paid for it by 99.9% of the tourists.

[John Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Rebecca Ore said:

 

Lots of tourists simply are rude.  This is going to be especially bad if tour guides bring in groups at one time who aren't buying.   It's easy enough to buy something or ask permission.  I ask permission.   Most of my interior shots of from places where I am a customer.   I also don't go looking for colorful poverty, having met photographers who were doing that in rural Virginia when I lived there. 

 

Wikimedia has a good page on individual national laws.

 

Most selfies are terrible photos, anyway, just some bozo or bozette posing in front of famous buildings or annoying a horse or a bison.  I applaud the bison who ripped the jeans off the tourist who got too close.  I kept my car and the width of a road and some more space between me and a bear once.  Photos sucked, only an 105mm lens, but I didn't have trouble with the bear.   Respect what you're shooting.

 

Mayan women in traditional dress are notoriously hostile to being photographed.   A friend who toured Guatemala found that if she bought cloth and hired the women as guides, they had no trouble being photographed.  The Mayan women in traditional dress know they are among the main tourist attractions in Guatemala (and the rest were built by their ancestors), but they never get paid for it by 99.9% of the tourists.

 

Interesting you should mention Guatemala. Some Maya women are indeed hostile to being photographed, and rightly so. The more enterprising ones ask for payment. These two ladies in Quetzaltenango were an exception. They actually stopped me on the street and asked to be photographed. Have to say that I was somewhat taken aback. They looked to be prosperous, though, probably more so than I.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by John Mitchell

[Rebecca Ore]

1 hour ago, John Mitchell said:

 

Interesting you should mention Guatemala. Some Maya women are indeed hostile to being photographed, and rightly so. The more enterprising ones ask for payment. These two ladies in Quetzaltenango were an exception. They actually stopped me on the street and asked to be photographed. Have to say that I was somewhat taken aback. They looked to be prosperous, though, probably more so than I.

 

 

 

Guatemala has a nasty history with regards to the Mayans.  My friend who was there knew about some of the massacres.  The place where the Mayan women were more hostile may have been big tourist areas like Antigua.  Looks like some Spanish influence in the clothes above.  Lace trimmed aprons are common here, too, in the market in particular. 

[NYCat]

We were warned in Kenya not to take photos of the Maasai without permission. (Also no photos of police or soldiers). Some Maasai do carry spears and are apparently pretty quick to use them. Our group paid about $50 apiece to visit a village and photograph. They treated it as rather a festival with singing and dancing. I still had an uneasy feeling about my comparative prosperity and treating them like curiosities. We were advised to bring gifts for the schooling of the children... paper, pencils, etc. We were told our money would be about half their income for the year. 

 

Paulette

 

[John Mitchell]

11 hours ago, Rebecca Ore said:

 

Guatemala has a nasty history with regards to the Mayans.  My friend who was there knew about some of the massacres.  The place where the Mayan women were more hostile may have been big tourist areas like Antigua.  Looks like some Spanish influence in the clothes above.  Lace trimmed aprons are common here, too, in the market in particular. 

 

Yes, the Maya women in Antigua are more sensitive to being photographed than in some areas. Perhaps because they have to put up with so many curious tourists. I imagine it's a bit of hate /  love relationship for them because they depend on those same tourists to buy their handicrafts, etc. As you say, the two Maya women in my photo were not wearing typical outfits (heavy Spanish influence noted). I suspect they ran a business of some kind and were well travelled. They seemed more confident and worldly than the village women I saw in the produce markets in Quetzaltenango.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by John Mitchell

[John Mitchell]

Regarding the store in Barcelona, I guess that's what happens when your shop is also a museum. Tourists are bound to drop in to look around and nowadays take selfies (I call them "goofies"). It's just part of doing business. Perhaps the owner should relocate to a shopping mall or the local equivalent of Walmart.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by John Mitchell

[Rebecca Ore]

8 hours ago, John Mitchell said:

 

Yes, the Maya women in Antigua are more sensitive to being photographed than in some areas. Perhaps because they have to put up with so many curious tourists. I imagine it's a bit of hate /  love relationship for them because they depend on those same tourists to buy their handicrafts, etc. As you say, the two Maya women in my photo were not wearing typical outfits (heavy Spanish influence noted). I suspect they ran a business of some kind and were well travelled. They seemed more confident and worldly than the village women I saw in the produce markets in Quetzaltenango.

 

 

 

Thing is that I've met an old Welshman who complained about the price of backstrap woven cloth ($6 US a yard).  I also have seen the range of prices that people get for weavings -- anything from $5 to hundreds of dollars.   I suspect that the average tourist doesn't buy their stuff.   Some foreigner tried to get cheaper weaving thread for a group of Guatemalan weavers, only to have their local thread supplier shoot up their building.   Small Guatemalan weavings end up here -- but most tourists in Granada shop at white run stores, per observation of a friend who was there with a Honduran woman.   We've got foreigners who tell other people to bargain hard with vendors, which is not a Nicaraguan custom (10 to 15% off for good customers) and may not be a Mayan one, either.  One old British guy got thoroughly hated here for aggressive bargaining.   Given that any clothing item takes days to make even with machine spun thread, expecting to buy traditional clothes for the same price as a teeshirt is obscene.   The average tourist wants photos, not more things in their suitcases or backpacks.  My friend who traveled there went to one area where the women wore what they wove and didn't make anything for market.  The women you photographed may have actually bought their clothes rather than made them themselves.  Couple of good field studies books on Guatemalan weaving by US and EU handweavers.  The tradition in Nicaragua was deliberately destroyed in the 1940s to move women into agricultural cash work and purchasing machine produced cotton goods.  Wild cotton was destroyed to protect commercial cotton from diseases.  Cotton growing here failed and left damaged land, but nobody spins and weaves to dress their families. anymore.  Some wild cotton survived, though.

[Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg]

On 21/07/2023 at 23:49, John Mitchell said:

These two ladies in Quetzaltenango were an exception. They actually stopped me on the street and asked to be photographed.

they thought you were Carl Wilson of The Beach Boys...

 

aside: I never find wandering female street vendors to be hostile,

they simply turn away -- so a telephoto candid is required if not

paying -- I never pay for photo since I'd be making 100+ payments
per day with no guarantee images will ever license; imagine asking
subjects to share cost of gear or travel-lodging overhead; advantage
of wifey on itineraries -- as she rummages thru vendor baskets-tables,
I easily take photos including distracted vendor...

[John Mitchell]

49 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

they thought you were Carl Wilson of The Beach Boys...

 

aside: I never find wandering female street vendors to be hostile,

they simply turn away -- so a telephoto candid is required if not

paying -- I never pay for photo since I'd be making 100+ payments
per day with no guarantee images will ever license; imagine asking
subjects to share cost of gear or travel-lodging overhead; advantage
of wifey on itineraries -- as she rummages thru vendor baskets-tables,
I easily take photos including distracted vendor...

 

The Carl thing is getting a bit weird, Jeff (whoever you are). How about we give it a break for awhile.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by John Mitchell

[John Mitchell]

15 hours ago, Rebecca Ore said:

 

Thing is that I've met an old Welshman who complained about the price of backstrap woven cloth ($6 US a yard).  I also have seen the range of prices that people get for weavings -- anything from $5 to hundreds of dollars.   I suspect that the average tourist doesn't buy their stuff.   Some foreigner tried to get cheaper weaving thread for a group of Guatemalan weavers, only to have their local thread supplier shoot up their building.   Small Guatemalan weavings end up here -- but most tourists in Granada shop at white run stores, per observation of a friend who was there with a Honduran woman.   We've got foreigners who tell other people to bargain hard with vendors, which is not a Nicaraguan custom (10 to 15% off for good customers) and may not be a Mayan one, either.  One old British guy got thoroughly hated here for aggressive bargaining.   Given that any clothing item takes days to make even with machine spun thread, expecting to buy traditional clothes for the same price as a teeshirt is obscene.   The average tourist wants photos, not more things in their suitcases or backpacks.  My friend who traveled there went to one area where the women wore what they wove and didn't make anything for market.  The women you photographed may have actually bought their clothes rather than made them themselves.  Couple of good field studies books on Guatemalan weaving by US and EU handweavers.  The tradition in Nicaragua was deliberately destroyed in the 1940s to move women into agricultural cash work and purchasing machine produced cotton goods.  Wild cotton was destroyed to protect commercial cotton from diseases.  Cotton growing here failed and left damaged land, but nobody spins and weaves to dress their families. anymore.  Some wild cotton survived, though.

 

I agree. Bargaining can be really insulting, especially when you consider all the work that goes into higher quality weavings, ceramics, etc. Fortunately, in many places in Mexico and Guatemala, local indigenous artisans have gotten together to form cooperatives where they can set fair prices for their work. I've visited quite a few co-ops. Most of them will ship larger items as well, so no need to try to jam them into your suitcase.

[Rebecca Ore]

18 minutes ago, Jeffrey Isaac Greenberg said:

they thought you were Carl Wilson of The Beach Boys...

 

aside: I never find wandering female street vendors to be hostile,

they simply turn away -- so a telephoto candid is required if not

paying -- I never pay for photo since I'd be making 100+ payments
per day with no guarantee images will ever license; imagine asking
subjects to share cost of gear or travel-lodging overhead; advantage
of wifey on itineraries -- as she rummages thru vendor baskets-tables,
I easily take photos including distracted vendor...

 

 I ask if I can.  Nobody has asked me for money in Nicaragua, even when I got releases (paid roughly $3 in one case).  Guatemala can kill you if you're too annoying, one reason I didn't consider retiring there.   I take pictures of tourists and NGO short termers.   Those I don't ask.   But then I lived in a place that was overrun by arrogant snow birds and don't want to be that here.

 

Tourism is a wonderful way for the rich to not invest much in the education of the poor, just have them work in hotels for $5 to $10 a day.

 

The Nicaraguan photographers get a different look back from their subjects, fully human.  Alamy's Mexican stock agency partner doesn't have the pictures of colorful poverty on their own agency site. 

 

 

[Rebecca Ore]

6 minutes ago, John Mitchell said:

 

I agree. Bargaining can be really insulting, especially when you consider all the work that goes into higher quality weavings, ceramics, etc. Fortunately, in many places in Mexico and Guatemala, local indigenous artisans have gotten together to form cooperatives where they can set fair prices for their work. I've visited quite a few co-ops. Most of them will ship larger items as well, so no need to try to jam them into your suitcase.

 

I think the higher prices I saw on the YouTube video on this were for weavers connected either with galleries or coops.  And some weavers in one remote area don't ever sell their weavings, but wear them.   The children (growing fast) and the men tend to wear imported used clothes even in areas where domestic hand weaving is still practiced.  And the women wear ropa interior under their hand woven clothes, according to my friend who traveled there and asked, so bras probably also from the stores that sell US second hand clothes.

 

One issue here is people assuming that because Mexico is about bargaining, every other culture is.   My Nicaraguan friend and I listened with amazement as a vendor of fake silver jewelry kept lowering and lowering his price for a chome-plated bracelet by a tenth of the original price with no counter offers from her.

 

Some of the foreign illegals tell other gringos to do hard bargaining in Nicaragua, and also advise not getting residency but doing perpetual tourism instead.   Nicaragua does have a extradition treaty with the US, much to the surprise of some.   Also with the EU for the EU baddies who land here. 

[Michael Ventura]

I generally ask for permission when up close to a particular vendor or shop.  I sometimes buy something if I like and want what they are selling and that nearly always opens up doors for photos.  If a place has strict no-photo wish, I comply and move on.