JeffGreenberg

paying for tagging-keywording -- doing the math

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Posted (edited)

Not where $$ stays in family.

True outsiders.

Now or ever?

If willing, how much per image or tag?

Comments appreciated.

(note: realize it makes no sense for most, but maybe for a few it does)

(it frees up more time to make new images that license, etc.)

Edited by JeffGreenberg

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Posted (edited)

There have been a few threads about this and Clemency Wright has posted several times:

 

http://www.clemency.co.uk

 

Brasilnut has used her service. She does it for Robert Harding and other agencies.

 

She is included in this list of Alamy recommended keywording companies.

 

Easyresources says that it provides this service to Alamy specs and has a major client in Seattle.

 

recommended-keywording-companies.pdf

 

Google shows up several cheapies in Asia but personally I'd think these a better option for processing images rather than keywording. 

Edited by geogphotos

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Posted (edited)

But given the way the market is I can't see that this works financially ( for me ). 

 

With almost 60,000 images May brought me $1159 gross on Alamy. (Summary for 01 May 2018 to 01 June 2018 ( 44 item(s) totalling $1158.89 ))

 

So, $579.50 x 12 = $6954 pa ( just to keep the Maths simple  and ignoring Distributor sales)

 

59812/6954 = 8.6 images for each $1, or 11.62 cents per image per annum

 

I am sure that for others who earn much more, and who are better at this,  it might be worthwhile. I can only comment on the data I have.

Edited by geogphotos
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At $1.89 US per image for keywording service, is it a worthwhile investment.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, phomme said:

At $1.89 US per image for keywording service, is it a worthwhile investment.

 

On the other hand that is a one-off cost. It has to be weighed against the earning life of each image across possibly many agencies. But, as I have shown, for me, it would not be worthwhile for Alamy alone. 

 

That cost would have to come down by a huge amount, and that could only happen through enormous economies of scale such as photographers ( or agencies) combining to commission services at bulk discount ( just as happens with our fees ;)). 

 

If the cost is left to be the responsibility of each individual contributor I can only think it would only make sense for a very small minority of Alamy contributors, or to those viewing it as a hobby paid for from other sources.

Edited by geogphotos

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Posted (edited)

I wonder what cost per image the company in Seattle pays?

 

Or what cost per image Alamy could negotiate on behalf of those of its contributors interested - lets say for several hundred thousand images a year?

Edited by geogphotos

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IMHO - Previous experience with either agency doing the keywording or a 3rd party has not been satisfactory - gained time gets lost when double checking and filling in omissions.However, I can see benefits of getting "lectured"/consulted on keywording strategies and is always on the lookout for research/industry papers on the subject - it is a constant work in progress, isn't? I might as well add that I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to "my metadata", but no master at any stretch of the imagination, so I don't think I would ever trust anyone else enough to see full benefits. Some days I love keywording and some days it is just a complete "stop" and nothing comes out... Fully populated Lightroom keywordlists and automatic adding of synonyms is a big time saver, many sets of images share 90% of their keywords.

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50 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

But given the way the market is I can't see that this works financially ( for me ). 

 

With almost 60,000 images May brought me $1159 gross on Alamy. (Summary for 01 May 2018 to 01 June 2018 ( 44 item(s) totalling $1158.89 ))

 

So, $579.50 x 12 = $6954 pa ( just to keep the Maths simple  and ignoring Distributor sales)

 

59812/6954 = 8.6 images for each $1, or 11.62 cents per image per annum

 

I am sure that for others who earn much more, and who are better at this,  it might be worthwhile. I can only comment on the data I have.

Ian - thanks for sharing and that is a crazy amount of images, I'm in awe! Well done! Hopefully your RPI is lifted from many distributors and I presume your type of imagery has a longer lifespan than what I'm used to. /Best

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Martin Carlsson said:

IMHO - Previous experience with either agency doing the keywording or a 3rd party has not been satisfactory - gained time gets lost when double checking and filling in omissions.However, I can see benefits of getting "lectured"/consulted on keywording strategies and is always on the lookout for research/industry papers on the subject - it is a constant work in progress, isn't? I might as well add that I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to "my metadata", but no master at any stretch of the imagination, so I don't think I would ever trust anyone else enough to see full benefits. Some days I love keywording and some days it is just a complete "stop" and nothing comes out... Fully populated Lightroom keywordlists and automatic adding of synonyms is a big time saver, many sets of images share 90% of their keywords.

 

I agree. I send in images to a distributor and they end up in Seattle. Nearly all of my metadata ends up being ditched and replaced with stuff that is not as good and which they are paying for, and which can take six months to be done.  Stuff like 'built structure, incidental people, place of interest, human likeness, etc'

Edited by geogphotos
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Martin Carlsson said:

Ian - thanks for sharing and that is a crazy amount of images, I'm in awe! Well done! Hopefully your RPI is lifted from many distributors and I presume your type of imagery has a longer lifespan than what I'm used to. /Best

 

That has taken 15 years ( actually longer because I already had thousands of slides when I started), so 4,000 a year isn't such a big deal when I haven't edited tightly and most of them are walk-about shots. 

 

I'm on about 1600 new images so far for 2018. 

Edited by geogphotos
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5 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

I agree. I send in images to a distributor and they end up in Seattle. Nearly all of my metadata ends up being ditched and replaced with stuff that is not as good and which they are paying for, and which can take six months to be done.  Stuff like 'built structure, incidental people, place of interest, human likeness, etc'

 

On a good day I find keywording to be an artform, always trying to improve, can give one an edge at times (niches) and is part of work - I rather make a mistake myself then paying someone else to do it for me. Think we're on the same page.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Martin Carlsson said:

 

On a good day I find keywording to be an artform, always trying to improve, can give one an edge at times (niches) and is part of work - I rather make a mistake myself then paying someone else to do it for me. Think we're on the same page.

 

I find that most of them are going to start off being the same for a batch of images so a fee of $1.50 per image is crazy.

 

Maybe that would be okay if every image was of a different subject in a  different location.

 

I start with location ' UK, United Kingdom, Britain, British, England, English, Wiltshire, Devizes......then nouns such as ....building, buildings, architecture, town, urban, town centre.....then add ones for that image/images.....brewer, brewers, brewery, Wadworth, Wadworths, Victorian, red brick, industry, industrial, historic, factory, manufacturing, nineteenth century, nineteenth-century, ' ... and by then I am about done. 

 

Then send by ftp

Edited by geogphotos

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Posted (edited)

When I first joined 5 years ago, Jeff had just under 100,000 images. Since then he has added about 30,000 images, or about 6,000 per year.

 

If the agency charges $1.89 per image, his cost would be about $10,800 per year for his new images if he stays at the same rate.  

 

Using Ian's standard (Jeff's may be higher or lower) of $0.12 per image per year, it would take 15 years for any new sets of images to give you a return on investment.  When prices were high a few years ago (even the first year I started I had some big text book sales) it may have been cost effective to hire a service but they are much lower now and will probably continue to slowly drop, or level off at best.

 

So Jeff, if you use your last 3 or 4 years to figure out your RPI and divide that into the $1.89, you will figure out how long it will take for any new images to start making an income for you.

 

Jill

Edited by Jill Morgan
Fix annual cost for $5400 to $10,800
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I read somewhere once that only 10-15% of your images will ever sell. It may be more for some and less for others. If that is the case then each selling image would have potentially cost $19. As Jill says it may have made sense for a busy shooter 10 years ago but doesn't make economic sense now.

 

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16 minutes ago, BobD said:

I read somewhere once that only 10-15% of your images will ever sell. It may be more for some and less for others. If that is the case then each selling image would have potentially cost $19. As Jill says it may have made sense for a busy shooter 10 years ago but doesn't make economic sense now.

 

 

I'd say that 10-15% is pretty accurate. A bit depressing...

 

Microstockers probably (?) do better in this regard.

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30.23%.

But probably 1% of all keywords. ;-)

 

wim

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, wiskerke said:

30.23%.

But probably 1% of all keywords. ;-)

 

wim

 

Wow! You're really on top of this stuff.

 

I've made 930 sales on Alamy since I started submitting in mid 2007. Given all the repeat sellers (I've got quite a number), it's probably not much more than 10% for me. Perhaps it's not a good idea to think too much about this. Could get a bit demotivating.

Edited by John Mitchell

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3 hours ago, John Mitchell said:

 

Wow! You're really on top of this stuff.

 

I've made 930 sales on Alamy since I started submitting in mid 2007. Given all the repeat sellers (I've got quite a number), it's probably not much more than 10% for me. Perhaps it's not a good idea to think too much about this. Could get a bit demotivating.

 

I made a habit of throwing every sale in a lightbox, this takes care of the repeat sellers: each image can be in there only once. And each lightbox is automatically showing it's total.

All without doing any math ;-)

The grand total is on our dashboard of course.

I do however keep track of what the totals are for each image. Not in Excel but by hand.

 

wim

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3 hours ago, wiskerke said:

 

I made a habit of throwing every sale in a lightbox, this takes care of the repeat sellers: each image can be in there only once. And each lightbox is automatically showing it's total.

All without doing any math ;-)

The grand total is on our dashboard of course.

I do however keep track of what the totals are for each image. Not in Excel but by hand.

 

wim

 

The lightbox idea is a good one. I'll have to give it a try. Doing the math is really difficult -- perhaps even impossible -- since the total number of images is continuously increasing (in my case, anyway), as is the total number of sales. Perhaps Einstein's special theory of relatively would come in handy here. B)

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8 hours ago, wiskerke said:

 

I made a habit of throwing every sale in a lightbox, this takes care of the repeat sellers: each image can be in there only once. And each lightbox is automatically showing it's total.

All without doing any math ;-)

The grand total is on our dashboard of course.

I do however keep track of what the totals are for each image. Not in Excel but by hand.

 

wim

I just cannot believe we can't filter by images sold and images zoomed in AIM :huh:

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1 hour ago, LawrensonPhoto said:

I just cannot believe we can't filter by images sold and images zoomed in AIM :huh:

 

Images not zoomed/sold would be much more useful. ;-)

You can see the images zoomed /sold in your Pseudonym Summary if you click on the numbers.

If you do that for the whole allowed period before January 31 each year, you'll have an overview of the full previous year. Not perfect, but it works.

 

wim

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5 minutes ago, wiskerke said:

 

Images not zoomed/sold would be much more useful. ;-)

You can see the images zoomed /sold in your Pseudonym Summary if you click on the numbers.

If you do that for the whole allowed period before January 31 each year, you'll have an overview of the full previous year. Not perfect, but it works.

 

wim

Its the fact that none of those options are available that annoys me

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for responses.

I want what's probably not possible.

Need not be tagging pro, just someone who "gets it"

& is quite happy to make, say, $15/hr at home whilst

watching the telly or whatever.  I'd still have to provide

most proper nouns -- place names, business names, etc.

They add what they see prominently in image, say, about

dozen tags per image...?

Probably unlimited work, free to do when they want...

$15/(50 images per hour) = 30 cents per image thereabouts...

Could be someone anywhere in world with paypal or similar...

Edited by JeffGreenberg

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10 minutes ago, JeffGreenberg said:

Thanks for responses.

I want what's probably not possible.

Need not be tagging pro, just someone who "gets it"

& is quite happy to make, say, $15/hr at home whilst

watching the telly or whatever.  I'd still have to provide

most proper nouns -- place names, business names, etc.

They add what they see prominently in image, say, about

dozen tags per image...?

Probably unlimited work, free to do when they want...

$15/(50 images per hour) = 30 cents per image thereabouts...

Could be someone anywhere in world with paypal or similar...

 

My son would probably be interested.  Email me at info@jkmorganpets.com

 

Jill

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2018 at 11:26, Jill Morgan said:

 

My son would probably be interested.  Email me at info@jkmorganpets.com

Jill

 

Thanks!  Will keep info.  Couple things must happen first:

 

Am experiencing significant rise in another major agency monthly results.

Although only ~$4net/image licensed, last month 679 licenses from (rising) 44.6K images

indicates possible 18% of my collection licensed annually, need couple-few more monthly

results to determine if trend or just outlier...

 

Am finishing latest tagging backlog, need to create new backlog of 2K+ images

via multiple consecutive trips, nothing planned yet....  regards jg

Edited by JeffGreenberg

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