Martin P Wilson Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 58 minutes ago, Rob C said: Martin that’s brilliant research. Thanks very much. I’ll be digging deep in to Bugatti archives to see what I can come up with. Rob You could try dropping an email with the picture to the Bugatti owners club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 The bike is a Sunbeam. Probably 500cc. Probably 1936. Not sure on the exact model or even the engine size. a 250cc I think the sunburst can still be seen on the tank of the ABM645 like the one here. The breakthrough came when I realized it's like a side valve engine with overhead valves bolted on. Quite distinct are the various covers especially the upper one with that clip. They vary over the years which narrows it down to 1935-37 I think. a 500 cc And yet another 500 wim edit: it seems in the UK despatch is sometimes used in stead of dispatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 1, 2018 Author Share Posted March 1, 2018 Massive thanks Wim for the time and effort you've put in researching this. Very much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inchiquin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 On 2/28/2018 at 21:09, Martin P Wilson said: You could try dropping an email with the picture to the Bugatti owners club. I don't think it's a Bugatti. The Bugatti badge is a distinctive thick oval shape and as far as I can see from old photos it's always been the same. The badge in Rob's picture is long and thin, and possibly diamond shaped or with a central section flanked by wings. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 38 minutes ago, Inchiquin said: I don't think it's a Bugatti. The Bugatti badge is a distinctive thick oval shape and as far as I can see from old photos it's always been the same. The badge in Rob's picture is long and thin, and possibly diamond shaped or with a central section flanked by wings. Alan The badge worried me too, it is dark enamel on a Bugatti as well, but with the damage at the top of the radiator I looked for other cues. The radiator though appears Bugatti shaped but then it is rather damaged so difficult to be sure. Another possibility is that it was a Bugatti built under licence (~3 companies) which included Crossley in the UK but they seemed to use a different body style. I had a thought - Austin used a winged wheel as a radiator badge. Could it be an Austin 7 special after all but they did tend to have squarer radiators. There were a lot made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 Sent a copy of the image to the Bugatti Owners Club. They are investigating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lewis Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 HI Rob What about the cars in the background they have reg plates and look vaguely American???? can you make out some sort of plate on the front?? Also could the MK reg on the car in the background be the two letter code for north east London?? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 47 minutes ago, Jon Lewis said: HI Rob What about the cars in the background they have reg plates and look vaguely American???? can you make out some sort of plate on the front?? Also could the MK reg on the car in the background be the two letter code for north east London?? Jon Image was taken in England. Didn't know about the MK location, so that's interesting. Still waiting to here from the Bugatti people. Definitely an AA badge on the radiator; https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/car-badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inchiquin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 5 hours ago, Martin P Wilson said: The radiator though appears Bugatti shaped Yes, but... in every picture I've ever seen of an old Bugatti the chrome surround is a flat band perpendicular to the face of the radiator, whereas here it is shaped in a gradient towards the radiator. And I'm still puzzled by those long straight angled mudguards. The jury's still out for me. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I believe this is the grille we're looking for. It's distorted and maybe lost it's badge or part thereof. All from Alamy btw. This one from the Bugatti Owners Club's Bugfest . That AA badge has been in use since 1911. wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 1 hour ago, wiskerke said: I believe this is the grille we're looking for. It's distorted and maybe lost it's badge or part thereof. All from Alamy btw. This one from the Bugatti Owners Club's Bugfest . That AA badge has been in use since 1911. wim I agree with Wim, note especially the slightly flattened curve of the crank handle notch at the bottom, some were that shape others much more circular even on the same Type. Certainly I found several pictures of Bugattis with the same headlamp "U" shaped support brackets with the low mounting (below the top of the wings/fenders) and with similar mudguards. Not so many with the boat tailed rear end. 2 hours ago, Rob C said: Image was taken in England. Didn't know about the MK location, so that's interesting. Still waiting to here from the Bugatti people. Definitely an AA badge on the radiator; https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/car-badges I too was worried about the "American" feel of the cars in the background but in my catalogue of British cars I was surprised that there were many British cars of similar style, just more low profile than the Austins and Morrises and the like of the period. The number plates are certainly appropriate for British cars of the period (around WW1) as is that on the car in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdh Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 6 hours ago, Martin P Wilson said: I agree with Wim, note especially the slightly flattened curve of the crank handle notch at the bottom, some were that shape others much more circular even on the same Type. Certainly I found several pictures of Bugattis with the same headlamp "U" shaped support brackets with the low mounting (below the top of the wings/fenders) and with similar mudguards. Not so many with the boat tailed rear end. I too was worried about the "American" feel of the cars in the background but in my catalogue of British cars I was surprised that there were many British cars of similar style, just more low profile than the Austins and Morrises and the like of the period. The number plates are certainly appropriate for British cars of the period (around WW1) as is that on the car in question. Also agree and looked for the U-shaped lamp holders. What is also quite distinctive is the placement of the the rivets on the car frame and the frame shaping, right below the lamps that hold the leave springs. The rivets are placed in the same way as on the Bugatti Type 17 and the shape is very similar if not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 1 hour ago, hdh said: Also agree and looked for the U-shaped lamp holders. What is also quite distinctive is the placement of the the rivets on the car frame and the frame shaping, right below the lamps that hold the leave springs. The rivets are placed in the same way as on the Bugatti Type 17 and the shape is very similar if not the same. My feeling was that it is a Type 17 variant but I have just found a reference to the 1913 Type 23 as a Type 17 with a boat tail body. That is what the car in question appears to have and maybe a three seater 2+1, certainly made a Type 23 like that. I think it is quite early as most Bugattis by the 1920s had louvres in the engine bay side panels and larger front brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 3, 2018 Author Share Posted March 3, 2018 Because there are a couple of numbers on the registration (licence) plate visible (it seems to begin with an 'X' and with an '8'), I'm hoping this may be a good clue for the Bugatti Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 So, I've just heard back from the UK Bugatti Owners Club. They seem convinced it's a Type 23 or Brescia, and probably registration number XU 8943, chassis number 1936. More searching for me based on this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, Rob C said: So, I've just heard back from the UK Bugatti Owners Club. They seem convinced it's a Type 23 or Brescia, and probably registration number XU 8943, chassis number 1936. More searching for me based on this information. Great! wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob C Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 The amazing thing is that XU 8943 still exists! Problem is, photos of the car today are quite different from the car in my image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, Rob C said: The amazing thing is that XU 8943 still exists! Problem is, photos of the car today are quite different from the car in my image. Your quest may not be over. ;-) wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 34 minutes ago, Rob C said: The amazing thing is that XU 8943 still exists! Problem is, photos of the car today are quite different from the car in my image. That's what it looked like when it was rebuilt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 hours ago, spacecadet said: That's what it looked like when it was rebuilt! In a 100 years it has probably been rebuilt more than once! I suspect a surprisingly high proportion of all Bugattis ever built still survive (even if some have been rebuilt from just a chassis plate. Sometimes even less I gather from talking to a classic car authenticator at Race Retro two weeks ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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