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Mike@Meonshore

$XXX for a 1/4 page in a UK National Newspaper - really ?

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Any feedback from other contributors selling into newspapers would be appreciated....

 

Just had a sale reported for the following:

 

 

Country: United Kingdom

Usage: Editorial

Media: Newspaper - national

Print run: up to 750,000

Placement: Inside and online

Image Size: 1/4 page

Start: 01 June 2013

End: 02 June 2013

One use in a single editorial or advertorial article used within print and /or web versions, with re-use of the article in other titles or web versions within the same newspaper group. Digital use includes archive rights for the lifetime of the article.

 

$XXX (gross) - approx £XXX (gross)

 

The image in question was uploaded through Alamy Live News on the 19th June (sports event image) so I'm still trying to establish actual usage date - and Member Services tell me that this had passed into stock (ie more than 48 hours after upload) and was not an error as it sits within the "newspaper scheme rates". My more recent sales have been in books/magazines and it is a while since I sold into newspapers via Alamy (more recent ones have been direct sales).

 

Calculator (which I know isn't accurate) has this at £XXX. I'm well aware that minimum payments direct or through other agencies for this are going to be in the order of £XXX for a small show and £XXX for an inside decent usage as this is, even if you assume that the online use is gifted in that.

 

Is this in line with others experiences of current newspaper usage fees ? because £XXX in my pocket for a decent show in a National feels like a swift kick in the knackers to me.

 

Many thanks

 

 

(Self-edited to remove actual figures)

Edited by Mike@Meonshore

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I'm thinking of diversifying into a new line of cast iron underpants for the likes of your good self Mike !

 

Yes this is in line with what has been negotiated for us by the downward spiraling sales teams - just feel happy that yours was printed - if it had been ONline only you would be celebrating a sale worth just under $4 !!!!  

 

Had your image been sold when it was in the Live News section you might have got more, but once it reaches 'Stock' then you get a pittance under the "Scheming Newspapers Rates" - I was a night picture editor on a Fleet Street biggie and the then managing editor once told me that he would be buying stock images soon for "a penny a picture" as the stock libraries/agencies were all so keen to undercut each other - I think Mr Plod has him in hand as we speak but his words seem prophetic.......

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I had one of these too (A4ND95). It was in the Sunday Telegraph at a small size, about 1/16th in June. When they write 1/4, it could be any size up to 1/4 page. Mine was a stock image. 

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Had yesterday your same sale, same amount, same date, same disappointment!

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Two years ago and back  i was making around $24,000 US gross from my 4 agencies - in the last 12 months i have made around $2400 - so go figure - is it worth it anymore yet people still get into this? But heh i'm not complaining.

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Thanks Pearl, but all of the newspapers already know what the rates are and it refers only to the Newspaper Scheme.......it is the general sales which are commercially sensitive.

Edited by DavidC
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Thanks everyone for the confirmation. I also got a follow-up email from member services with a more detailed explanation. Not that it helps financially.

 

I now understand that this is a subscription scheme similar to that of Getty and PA -  I *was* aware of their schemes. The newspaper(s) pay a fixed monthly fee to Alamy - who then divide the fee by the total number of usages and allocate that out to the contributors of the used images. This also explains the exact same fee - and the same fee for a variety of size uses.

 

I have edited the amount out after reading the thread Pearl linked to (thank you). I have no wish to damage other contributors business, but I needed to get some feedback based on a figure to establish if this was a reporting error or actually a previously seen amount given the size.

 

To a certain extent I don't have an issue with the subscription model. I'd be happier with it if I was seeing the volume that the Getty/PA agencies seem to get with it...

Edited by Mike@Meonshore

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Time to enforce "Stand Your Ground Rule" - Opt out Newspaper scheme.

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Time to enforce "Stand Your Ground Rule" - Opt out Newspaper scheme.

 

I'd agree with you if the images were still shown to the newspapers in the scheme - on the basis that they had to be purchased outside of the scheme pricing at full rates. But they are not.

 

Opt out means your images are not shown at all to newspapers in the scheme. For news images where I'm sitting/standing next to 5-10 other photographers I can have no reasonable assumption of uniqueness in my photographs and therefore I'm better off in, than out. The paper will simply either use another Alamy image or one from another agency. Poor as the amount was it was more than £0.

 

If I had a high value creative collection then I'd certainly have them under another ID which was opted-out, or at another agency which wasn't in a subscription scheme.

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Time to enforce "Stand Your Ground Rule" - Opt out Newspaper scheme.

 

I'd agree with you if the images were still shown to the newspapers in the scheme - on the basis that they had to be purchased outside of the scheme pricing at full rates. But they are not.

 

Opt out means your images are not shown at all to newspapers in the scheme. For news images where I'm sitting/standing next to 5-10 other photographers I can have no reasonable assumption of uniqueness in my photographs and therefore I'm better off in, than out. The paper will simply either use another Alamy image or one from another agency. Poor as the amount was it was more than £0.

 

If I had a high value creative collection then I'd certainly have them under another ID which was opted-out, or at another agency which wasn't in a subscription scheme.

 

As far as I'm aware, the images are still available to be viewed by all newspapers but may be ignored if they are not part of the newspaper scheme.

 

Did MS tell you they don't send images out to newspapers from photographers that are outside of the newspaper scheme?

Edited by Alex Todd

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Time to enforce "Stand Your Ground Rule" - Opt out Newspaper scheme.

 

I'd agree with you if the images were still shown to the newspapers in the scheme - on the basis that they had to be purchased outside of the scheme pricing at full rates. But they are not.

 

Opt out means your images are not shown at all to newspapers in the scheme. For news images where I'm sitting/standing next to 5-10 other photographers I can have no reasonable assumption of uniqueness in my photographs and therefore I'm better off in, than out. The paper will simply either use another Alamy image or one from another agency. Poor as the amount was it was more than £0.

 

If I had a high value creative collection then I'd certainly have them under another ID which was opted-out, or at another agency which wasn't in a subscription scheme.

 

As far as I'm aware, the images are still available to be viewed by all newspapers but may be ignored if they are not part of the newspaper scheme.

 

Did MS tell you they don't send images out that are outside of the newspaper scheme?

 

In your Alamy account in the section where you can opt-in/out of the newspaper scheme.

 

..."Opting out will result in those customers not seeing your images."...

 

Which is what I based my post above on.

 

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I've seen that but my understanding is that news images (or ones that are deemed worthy enough by Alamy) will be sent round all newspapers. There is less chance of a sale if you are outside of the newspaper scheme but if you have something different from the rest there is still a chance of a sale.

 

It would be good to get a definitive answer from Alamy about how it works in reality.

 

For example (I'm not in the scheme), if I got a shot of Prince Harry down on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton and sent them in, do you think they would send them out everywhere or just to those newsapers outside of the scheme?

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I've seen that but my understanding is that news images (or ones that are deemed worthy enough by Alamy) will be sent round all newspapers. There is less chance of a sale if you are outside of the newspaper scheme but if you have something different from the rest there is still a chance of a sale.

 

It would be good to get a definitive answer from Alamy about how it works in reality.

 

For example (I'm not in the scheme), if I got a shot of Prince Harry down on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton and sent them in, do you think they would send them out everywhere or just to those newsapers outside of the scheme?

 

Ah I see what you are referring to. You are mistaking images on Alamy Live News for the Newspaper Scheme.

 

Alamy Live News images are put put onto the newsfeeds and very strong news images are sent directly to the papers. Images uploaded to Alamy Live News remain there for 48 hours after which they are moved to the stock area of the site.

 

The newspaper scheme is a subscription scheme which relates (as I understand it) to the stock area of the site only. Hence had my image sold within the first 48 hours I would have received a higher fee for it, as it sat in the Live News area. After it got moved to the stock section it became eligible for the scheme - where had I opted out it would not have appeared. Hope that make sense. 

 

My suggestion though is that if you have an image of Prince Harry on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton then you should go directly to the papers, and negotiate a 24-48 hour ww or country based exclusive with one of them to the highest bidder - and then sell it on to the rest once the exclusive period ends. You don't need Alamy to intermediate and take 50% for that ;-)

Edited by Mike@Meonshore

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I've seen that but my understanding is that news images (or ones that are deemed worthy enough by Alamy) will be sent round all newspapers. There is less chance of a sale if you are outside of the newspaper scheme but if you have something different from the rest there is still a chance of a sale.

 

It would be good to get a definitive answer from Alamy about how it works in reality.

 

For example (I'm not in the scheme), if I got a shot of Prince Harry down on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton and sent them in, do you think they would send them out everywhere or just to those newsapers outside of the scheme?

 

First off - not all newspaper customers are part of the newspaper scheme. The list changes.

 

However, any newspaper customer (in the scheme) logged into the Alamy site will only see images that are opted into the scheme. If you're not opted in, your images will not be seen. 

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I've seen that but my understanding is that news images (or ones that are deemed worthy enough by Alamy) will be sent round all newspapers. There is less chance of a sale if you are outside of the newspaper scheme but if you have something different from the rest there is still a chance of a sale.

 

It would be good to get a definitive answer from Alamy about how it works in reality.

 

For example (I'm not in the scheme), if I got a shot of Prince Harry down on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton and sent them in, do you think they would send them out everywhere or just to those newsapers outside of the scheme?

 

Ah I see what you are referring to. You are mistaking images on Alamy Live News for the Newspaper Scheme.

 

Alamy Live News images are put put onto the newsfeeds and very strong news images are sent directly to the papers. Images uploaded to Alamy Live News remain there for 48 hours after which they are moved to the stock area of the site.

 

The newspaper scheme is a subscription scheme which relates (as I understand it) to the stock area of the site only. Hence had my image sold within the first 48 hours I would have received a higher fee for it, as it sat in the Live News area. After it got moved to the stock section it became eligible for the scheme - where had I opted out it would not have appeared. Hope that make sense. 

 

My suggestion though is that if you have an image of Prince Harry on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton then you should go directly to the papers, and negotiate a 24-48 hour ww or country based exclusive with one of them to the highest bidder - and then sell it on to the rest once the exclusive period ends. You don't need Alamy to intermediate and take 50% for that ;-)

 

I admit I'm confused :) It's not clear to me if the newspaper scheme affects Live News in that ..."Opting out will result in those customers not seeing your images."...

 

if I get those unique shots I've got the Sunday People on speed dial. Stalking Pippa all this time will have paid off at last :D 

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I've seen that but my understanding is that news images (or ones that are deemed worthy enough by Alamy) will be sent round all newspapers. There is less chance of a sale if you are outside of the newspaper scheme but if you have something different from the rest there is still a chance of a sale.

 

It would be good to get a definitive answer from Alamy about how it works in reality.

 

For example (I'm not in the scheme), if I got a shot of Prince Harry down on one knee proposing to Pippa Middleton and sent them in, do you think they would send them out everywhere or just to those newsapers outside of the scheme?

 

First off - not all newspaper customers are part of the newspaper scheme. The list changes.

 

However, any newspaper customer (in the scheme) logged into the Alamy site will only see images that are opted into the scheme. If you're not opted in, your images will not be seen. 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Alex.

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I had a similar fee, RF so I couldn't see what size was paid for, in the Standard, and it was used spot size.

Alamy do say that the size in the licence details is a maximum.

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Gosh, that is not a good deal for contributors all round - surely it would make more sense for the newspapers to access the images on a filter for images IN the scheme - but then be able to check out that there is nothing MUCH better in the general library for which they had to pay the full rate ?  The two types of image must already be defined.

 

The subscription scheme was never meant to be photographer friendly - just a cheapo access route for my friend the managing editor to keep the costs down - I wonder who came up with the original idea ?

 

.....just another thought - now that News Int and others are subscription based with paying customers for Online editions, have the managing editors stopped whinging about not making any profits for online editions and agreed to make a realistic payment for web usage - or am I being naive - anyone out there going to start the upward spiral by being the first to suggest it to them?

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Gosh, that is not a good deal for contributors all round - surely it would make more sense for the newspapers to access the images on a filter for images IN the scheme - but then be able to check out that there is nothing MUCH better in the general library for which they had to pay the full rate ?  The two types of image must already be defined.

 

The subscription scheme was never meant to be photographer friendly - just a cheapo access route for my friend the managing editor to keep the costs down - I wonder who came up with the original idea ?

 

.....just another thought - now that News Int and others are subscription based with paying customers for Online editions, have the managing editors stopped whinging about not making any profits for online editions and agreed to make a realistic payment for web usage - or am I being naive - anyone out there going to start the upward spiral by being the first to suggest it to them?

 

+1

 

It seems crazy!  Not only a rough deal for contributors (who admittedly have the option of opting into or out of the Newspaper Scheme), but in some respects a rough deal for subscribers to the scheme who may potentially lose out on a great picture that suits their needs perfectly.

 

As you say, a filter whereby they could view all images would be ideal - with, of course, the licensing price made abundantly clear.  That would make everyone happy, surely?  Alamy and the contributor receive more (where applicable) and the contributor retains the same deal but with more options.

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Time to enforce "Stand Your Ground Rule" - Opt out Newspaper scheme.

 

Had the same sale as well (RM). Am opted OUT of NS! This is unfortunately NOT about the newspaper scheme. This is just Alamy (once again) making bulk deals that are of benefit only to them and leaving the photographers in the mud.

 

The "with re-use of the article in other titles or web versions within the same newspaper group" clause is especially worrisome.

 

-Jason

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Yeah, then you found your picture all over the world in multiple languages, Russian, Greek, Chinese, translated from Mail Online, etc. When you ask MS, the standard answer is "These are third party use, we can't chase it".

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Said Jason....The "with re-use of the article in other titles or web versions within the same newspaper group" clause is especially worrisome.

 

Worth saying that again - every group has a daily and Sunday version - plus most have more than one daily - plus the online versions are now becoming paid for by subscription and they are thrown in - plus most groups have provincial papers as part of the same "group" - who on earth agreed to that one - the managing editor must have been rolling about with laughter........

 

I really do begin to wonder.......

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