Betty LaRue Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 I use phrases, too, Bill. They work for me. For instance, we have a city park called Will Rogers park. I must put the name of the park as a phrase, or I will get irrelevant views from people looking for an image of Will Rogers, the man. I was getting some of those views, then realized it was because I had Will Rogers park in the caption. I hope I've gotten all of them changed. Note to self: check them out to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeRay Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 ^^ Bill, the suggestions put up by the search engine as you keyword has always been there, and very useful indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I use phrases, too, Bill. They work for me. For instance, we have a city park called Will Rogers park. I must put the name of the park as a phrase, or I will get irrelevant views from people looking for an image of Will Rogers, the man. I was getting some of those views, then realized it was because I had Will Rogers park in the caption. I hope I've gotten all of them changed. Note to self: check them out to make sure. Then again, someone searching for "Will Rogers" might be looking for all things related to the man, so your park images may not necessarily be false positives. Sometimes it's a Catch-22 situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I notice when I search on only one keyword the Alamy search engine pops up and suggests a search phrase. Here is London: london london skyline london eye london underground london bus london bridge london taxi london zoo london street london aerial Is that part of the new search engine, or has it been doing that all along? Perhaps photographers who have seen negative results from the new search engine could give us some helpful data on how they have been keywording. I'm surprised you didn't already know about this as you seem to know so much about the search engine. It has been like this for years. I presume the suggestions are actually previous searches by registered clients. I have been using this to help me keyword my images for a long time. This information combined with Alamy telling us that proximity of keywords is important is part of the reason why I re-use the same keyword several times. So for a landscape in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia landscape - without the commas And for a hiking image in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia hiking, Snowdonia hikers - without the commas and not necessarily in that order but now we are accused of gaming the system!!! Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I have spent the last week trying to figure out why it’s working for me. Here are some things I have noticed. When I look at my December views, (Pseudonym Summary) I see a lot of multi word searches. I get fewer views and more zooms on multi word searches, resulting in higher CTR. I have always keyworded all relevant parts of the image, which is better for multi word searches. I have always keyworded location as a keyword, and also put location in the caption. I keyword concepts. I use keyword phrases. I only have 2 Pseudonyms and both have strong CTR. MY CTR went up 20 points in Oct, and stayed high in Nov, Dec 2016. When keywording, I consider false positives in searches. I am coming to the conclusion that, to avoid false positives, it is important to use more keyword phrases. For an example consider (air pollution), (air), (pollution). Use only (air pollution) and (pollution) and not (air) because air alone would end up in all kinds of irrelevant searches and lower my CTR. I notice when I search on only one keyword the Alamy search engine pops up and suggests a search phrase. Here is London: london london skyline london eye london underground london bus london bridge london taxi london zoo london street london aerial Is that part of the new search engine, or has it been doing that all along? Perhaps photographers who have seen negative results from the new search engine could give us some helpful data on how they have been keywording. Bill, Thanks for the info - I tend to do pretty much what you do - as Pearl says, the drop-down box for searches has been there for years - I think they represent the keywords/phrases used in the searches by Alamys' customers (who they use for measures) in the previous year. It is useful in that it is important not to omit those phrases. What I dont do is put any sort of punctuation in at all - no commas, no speech marks or anything. If i want to try and get phrases searched for I put the words in, in the correct order, next to each other, and often therefore repeat words as Pearl does. Things now seem to be completely random - for example an image from Hermanus in South Africa of mine which has the word Hermanus in the caption and the main keywords but not in the esskeys, has gone in higher than an image which has that word in all three fields It all seems rather random, and means we have no idea, even within our own images, what order they will appear. With the old system we had some sort of control, in that images we keyworded later tended to go in higher up in a search (hence newer images were seen first). This now means that what we consider our best stock images may well appear well down in the searches, which is very unsatisfactory for both ourselves, and , I would have thought, Alamy. That this is happening has made me consider, for the first time, whether to sell those images through a different agency. (I dont sell through anyone else at the moment). Kumar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 There seems to have been a change in the search engine over the week-end, incidentally, in that an image I keyworded on Friday went in on Saturday on p1, line 6, and today (Sunday) is on p2, line 12 Kumar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well the search engine is NOT working for me. Bear with me whilst I explain. I have just done some test searches of subjects that I sell well in. Search term: Senior UK Result using the relevant tab and my highest ranked pseudo:- My first image is page 1, position 4 on line 1 - great I thought. However the "more by this photographer" link says I have 64 images but clicking on this link brings up 126 images. I assumed that the least relevant ones at the end of the 126 would be the missing images but it is actually large chunks of the earlier, most relevant images that are not being returned. The second of my images is further down page 1 but is the 8th image in the "more by this photographer" link. I worked my way to page 30 but my images stopped appearing on p23 with no sign of the missing images. I am seeing a similar result with Snowdonia UK but there are fewer missing images. Please could someone explain how this is a good result for the client? I wonder if Alamy actually realise that this is happening. Pearl Edit: I have removed the word senior from some of the returned images so this may all be different tomorrow when the search engine updates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ventura Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 So far, I have no complaints about where my images are landing in test searches. My zooms and CTR seem to be right about average for me. Fingers are crossed that it will continue to be this way or better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I notice when I search on only one keyword the Alamy search engine pops up and suggests a search phrase. Here is London: london london skyline london eye london underground london bus london bridge london taxi london zoo london street london aerial Is that part of the new search engine, or has it been doing that all along? Perhaps photographers who have seen negative results from the new search engine could give us some helpful data on how they have been keywording. I'm surprised you didn't already know about this as you seem to know so much about the search engine. It has been like this for years. I presume the suggestions are actually previous searches by registered clients. I have been using this to help me keyword my images for a long time. This information combined with Alamy telling us that proximity of keywords is important is part of the reason why I re-use the same keyword several times. So for a landscape in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia landscape - without the commas And for a hiking image in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia hiking, Snowdonia hikers - without the commas and not necessarily in that order but now we are accused of gaming the system!!! Pearl Hmmm... interesting. I don't do this, and the new search engine appears to be working OK for me. I probably would have used the word Snowdonia once only at the beginning of the list, without commas. Confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 More or less the same here though I don't place individual words together between commas, but I have many phrases with repeated words: In Bridge: ...., garden bird, bird feeder, migratory bird, bird of passage,... Alamy strips all commas >>> garden bird feeder migratory bird of passage In Bridge: ...., Great War, World War, First World War, World War One, World War I, ... Alamy strips all commas >>> Great War First World War One World War I Now that commas are preserved, could we finally have an answer whether we have to add all the phrases like "American black bear" "American" "black bear" "bear" or will the single phrase "American black bear" suffice? Cheers, Philippe Philippe: I have been keywording using your exact method and Alamy stripped out the commas. When my keywords appeared in manage images, I enclosed keyword phrases in quotes so that Great War, World War, First World War, World War One, World War I, became: “Great War” tank “World War” soldier “First World War” mud “World War One” battlefield “World War I” The search engine seemed to be able to interpret my “ “ as keyword phrases, but only partially. I noticed it had trouble with a string of quotes that ran together. Therefore I separated multiple phrases in quotes, with a single relevant keyword. We were told to use quotes around phrases sometime around 2007. I went back and re keyworded my collection of around 9,000 images at the time, and have been using quotes ever since. If you have not been using quotes, maybe that partially accounts for your placement drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I notice when I search on only one keyword the Alamy search engine pops up and suggests a search phrase. Here is London: london london skyline london eye london underground london bus london bridge london taxi london zoo london street london aerial Is that part of the new search engine, or has it been doing that all along? Perhaps photographers who have seen negative results from the new search engine could give us some helpful data on how they have been keywording. I'm surprised you didn't already know about this as you seem to know so much about the search engine. It has been like this for years. I presume the suggestions are actually previous searches by registered clients. I have been using this to help me keyword my images for a long time. This information combined with Alamy telling us that proximity of keywords is important is part of the reason why I re-use the same keyword several times. So for a landscape in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia landscape - without the commas And for a hiking image in Snowdonia I would keyword as follows Snowdonia UK, Snowdonia Wales, Snowdonia National Park, Snowdonia hiking, Snowdonia hikers - without the commas and not necessarily in that order but now we are accused of gaming the system!!! Pearl Pearl: I do not know so much about the search engine. That is why I asked the question. Thanks for your answer. I do not know what Alamy considers gaming the system. I consider gaming the system is placing the identical keyword like “tree” in Essential keywords, as well as Main keywords, as well as Comprehensive keywords. 3 times instead of once. A photographer was placing the same keyword, or keyword phrase, in all keyword boxes. The same photographer believed that triple placement of the same keyword in all the 3 different significance levels moved his images higher in the search order. This is not the way the system is supposed to be used. This information was disclosed on this forum by the photographer. This is not what you were doing. You are not being accused of gaming the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reimar Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well then I must be a gamer too, according to you Bill. To be honest, I just copy and paste all my keywords that are imported automatically into the comprehensive field, into the main field. I don't have time for more fiddling. I also copy and past most of the words from the caption into the essential field. Will that duplicate what's already in main and comprehensive. Most likely. So what? As I say, I'm not going to do more fiddling than that. You think that's a worse offense than repeating the same keyword many times? (Something I'll likely have to start doing depending on how phrase tags are implemented) To really level the playing field, we need clear direction from Alamy how to annotate our images to optimize selectivity and specificity when working with their search algorithms. In other words lower both false positives and negatives. I sure hope Alamy sets out these specific guidelines soon. As shown by this discussion, they haven't done a good job of it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 To really level the playing field, we need clear direction from Alamy how to annotate our images to optimize selectivity and specificity when working with their search algorithms. In other words lower both false positives and negatives. I sure hope Alamy sets out these specific guidelines soon. As shown by this discussion, they haven't done a good job of it yet. I'll drink to that. In fact, after following this thread, as interesting as it is, I feel like I need a drink -- i.e. I'm left totally confused. Alamy, we need you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotstock Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 The other thing that needs asking, is why is there so much old stuff at the front of the search? The first page of any search seems to be dominated by A-D. Where are the G and H? I know we have the new tab, but let's face it, that often shows rows of similars from people who can't resist uploading everything. I think most of us improve over time, and I think most of us would rather see our newer, better images at the front. Many of the people I used to see as my main competition have disappeared from the front of the search. No doubt they are us unhappy as I am. I'm also disappointed to see that my careful ordering of my images had been thrown away. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 ... Again, the search results are a complete mishmash and I truly can't find any logic in it. Does Alamy? Why are they looking for a search engine developer? Cheers, Philippe The search engine developer they were looking for was not an expert but someone who was interested in developing their search skills experience, a relatively junior technician to write the code. Presumably Alamy already have their own designers/ planners and other experts. At least that was my reading of the job description (I have read and written 100s of such JDs and cvs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'm also disappointed to see that my careful ordering of my images had been thrown away. Why? Exactly. I used to be able to have some control over which images were presented first and now that has gone. I can no longer find any logic to the order in which search results are returned and often my best ones are at the back. It's crazy and has thrown all my hard work down the drain. It's as though Alamy are working against us not with us. Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broad Norfolk Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I agree, Pearl. I've mentioned somewhere in a thread before that I have three pseudos and my 'bread and butter' one has gone way down the pile and the two 'lesser' ones have been promoted way above. I can only assume that my drop in views and zooms is due to this situation. My previous comment intimated that the new search engine seems to be working in reverse. Non-technical Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM photo Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'm also disappointed to see that my careful ordering of my images had been thrown away. Why? Exactly. I used to be able to have some control over which images were presented first and now that has gone. I can no longer find any logic to the order in which search results are returned and often my best ones are at the back. It's crazy and has thrown all my hard work down the drain. It's as though Alamy are working against us not with us. Pearl For me, this is one of the biggest drawbacks of any system. Most of us, I assume, would obviously prefer it if what we considered to be our best images of a certain subject came up first. Very often, it's the least relevant, or perhaps two similars such as a horizontal and a vertical of the same subject that hit the giddy heights of page 1, with better, or different, images way down the list. If anyone knows how to get around this problem I'd love to hear about it (or would that be classed as "gaming the system"?). On a more general note, it seems that tinkering with keywords is now becoming more important (and more time-consuming) that the actual picture-taking. Are we losing sight of why we do this? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I am afraid it is not working for me. Zooms are almost non existing. views dropped down by 30% for now. I know we are only in the second week of january, but it doesn't look very promising (for me at least). On a more general note, it seems that tinkering with keywords is now becoming more important (and more time-consuming) that the actual picture-taking. Are we losing sight of why we do this? Chris True, and to be honest, I want be able to fight the beast. To much energy for the result. So I am going to take it easy and enjoy taking photos. Good, It is not my main source of income. Perry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'm also disappointed to see that my careful ordering of my images had been thrown away. Why? Exactly. I used to be able to have some control over which images were presented first and now that has gone. I can no longer find any logic to the order in which search results are returned and often my best ones are at the back. It's crazy and has thrown all my hard work down the drain. It's as though Alamy are working against us not with us. Pearl I agree, Pearl. I've mentioned somewhere in a thread before that I have three pseudos and my 'bread and butter' one has gone way down the pile and the two 'lesser' ones have been promoted way above. I can only assume that my drop in views and zooms is due to this situation. My previous comment intimated that the new search engine seems to be working in reverse. Non-technical Jim. +1; completely agree Kumar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I politely and respectfully ask that those who don't worry much about keywording, don't concentrate on keyword order and don't use phrases, would kindly not keep criticising those of us who have spent a huge amount of time putting effort into getting things right. If you do put that effort in and are still getting good results, then of course that's fair enough and interesting to see why it's working for some any not others. Geoff. I hope it's OK with you if someone with nearly three times as many images as you (what you would call a "large port", I think) and who probably falls into your category above but hasn't criticised you, to point out that holidays aside views and zooms appear not to have fallen, and that the pattern of search appears to be largely unchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Not offended at all, not saying anything about anyone's opinion, and not getting into a competition about sales volume, it's just getting a bit repetitive. Edit: post referred to has been edited so the above doesn't make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Not from me. I tried quite hard not to make it appear sarcastic. Just to say what my opinion and experience of the new(ish) system had been. The problem with editing a post which already has a reply is that you can make the reply appear rather odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill Morgan Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Could it be that the new keyword system is in effect, even though we haven't officially been notified? This way the supertags would be the first 10 words and if you did do repeats to improve search (and I don't see anything wrong with that) it now could be penalizing you. Could also be why we are noticing that our commas aren't being stripped and phrases are staying. I think rank is out the window. Alamy is going to try to find the best pic, regardless of photographer. This is a better service to the customer (the people who give Alamy money) but not necessarily the best for the suppliers (that's us) who have had preferential rank due to good keywording and good sales. I of course have never had preferential rank at all, and maybe due to the new search is why I finally sold a wildlife image last month for the very first time from a bottom pseudo. It was a very good image. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the search is perfected yet and that is why Alamy haven't officially changed the keywording system. But I think it's in play. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarsierspectral Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Could it be that the new keyword system is in effect, even though we haven't officially been notified? This way the supertags would be the first 10 words and if you did do repeats to improve search (and I don't see anything wrong with that) it now could be penalizing you. Could also be why we are noticing that our commas aren't being stripped and phrases are staying. I think rank is out the window. Alamy is going to try to find the best pic, regardless of photographer. This is a better service to the customer (the people who give Alamy money) but not necessarily the best for the suppliers (that's us) who have had preferential rank due to good keywording and good sales. I of course have never had preferential rank at all, and maybe due to the new search is why I finally sold a wildlife image last month for the very first time from a bottom pseudo. It was a very good image. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the search is perfected yet and that is why Alamy haven't officially changed the keywording system. But I think it's in play. Jill deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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