New Image management tools coming - what should I do?

[Martin P Wilson]

My older images do not have commas, but some brackets and annotations. The ones in the past 2 years or so have commas and quotation marks. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Me too. I too I have used commas and quotes routinely in my local keywording for the last year or three. I reduce keyword separator to single space or comma in Essential keywords where I need the extra characters otherwise they come through as Alamy sees fit.

 

For the moment I am not going to waste energy worrying about what the changes may, or may not, mean until they are available and how they will work becomes clear. If I make any submission before then I will carry on as normal. I am actually delighted that Alamy is effectively going to be using the industry standard so that I will be able to do it all offline.

[John Mitchell]

 

My older images do not have commas, but some brackets and annotations. The ones in the past 2 years or so have commas and quotation marks. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Me too. I too I have used commas and quotes routinely in my local keywording for the last year or three. I reduce keyword separator to single space or comma in Essential keywords where I need the extra characters otherwise they come through as Alamy sees fit.

 

For the moment I am not going to waste energy worrying about what the changes may, or may not, mean until they are available and how they will work becomes clear. If I make any submission before then I will carry on as normal. I am actually delighted that Alamy is effectively going to be using the industry standard so that I will be able to do it all offline.

 

 

Martin, do you (like me) still use Photo Mechanic for keywording? If so, do you put the commas back into your keywords in Manage Images after Alamy has removed them. I don't. Should I? I'm confused.

[Martin P Wilson]

 

 

My older images do not have commas, but some brackets and annotations. The ones in the past 2 years or so have commas and quotation marks. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Me too. I too I have used commas and quotes routinely in my local keywording for the last year or three. I reduce keyword separator to single space or comma in Essential keywords where I need the extra characters otherwise they come through as Alamy sees fit.

 

For the moment I am not going to waste energy worrying about what the changes may, or may not, mean until they are available and how they will work becomes clear. If I make any submission before then I will carry on as normal. I am actually delighted that Alamy is effectively going to be using the industry standard so that I will be able to do it all offline.

 

 

Martin, do you (like me) still use Photo Mechanic for keywording? If so, do you put the commas back into your keywords in Manage Images after Alamy has removed them. I don't. Should I? I'm confused.

 

Yes I still use PhotoMechanic.

 

Now you have got me thinking. I guess I put them in when I cut and paste to create Essential keywords or if I add additional keywords using Manage Images, as things occur to me. Otherwise it is as Alamy converts the uploaded metadata.

[John Mitchell]

 

 

 

My older images do not have commas, but some brackets and annotations. The ones in the past 2 years or so have commas and quotation marks. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Me too. I too I have used commas and quotes routinely in my local keywording for the last year or three. I reduce keyword separator to single space or comma in Essential keywords where I need the extra characters otherwise they come through as Alamy sees fit.

 

For the moment I am not going to waste energy worrying about what the changes may, or may not, mean until they are available and how they will work becomes clear. If I make any submission before then I will carry on as normal. I am actually delighted that Alamy is effectively going to be using the industry standard so that I will be able to do it all offline.

 

 

Martin, do you (like me) still use Photo Mechanic for keywording? If so, do you put the commas back into your keywords in Manage Images after Alamy has removed them. I don't. Should I? I'm confused.

 

Yes I still use PhotoMechanic.

 

Now you have got me thinking. I guess I put them in when I cut and paste to create Essential keywords or if I add additional keywords using Manage Images, as things occur to me. Otherwise it is as Alamy converts the uploaded metadata.

 

 

Hmmm... I too do cutting and pasting and adding keywords after the fact, but I don't add any commas. My keywords just have spaces between them. Who knows what happens to the Photo Mechanic commas -- do they just disappear into the ether or does Alamy recognize them in some way, I wonder. Have I created a monster? My understanding was that commas, quotation marks, brackets, etc. are now just considered to be unnecessary clutter. 

[John Mitchell]

 

I would like to know whether words within multi-word tags will show up in searches. Will a search for "beaver" pick up images tagged only with "beaver" as a single word tag, or would the search also pick up images which happen to be tagged only with "European beaver" (but not the single word "beaver" as a separate tag)? Presently, if there is something that works as a sequential pair of words, as well as individual words, I make sure that the keywords appear in that order, which automatically covered both possibilities.

 

Graham

Exactly my concern as well. I planned to wait and try it out when the new tools become active, but hey, why not sharing my thoughts now. Maybe we come up with something Alamy didn't think off (Happened before. Remember the hyphens and "national park"? )

 

Do I need to add the following tags to be completely covered:

• American black bear
• American
• black bear
• bear

or does the single tag "American black bear" suffice? In that case, will my image also show up if someone searches for "American bear" or just "bear" (while I DON'T have those individual tags on board, but just the tag "American black bear")?

 

I suppose the tags are clickable. If a client sees a picture which contains the tag "American black bear" and he clicks on it, which images will appear?

Only the ones which have the single tag "American black bear" on board? Or also those images which have only the individual tags "American" and/or "bear"? How about priority?

 

The above is of very big importance concerning the number of tags (limited to 50). If the single tag "American black bear" would cover also each individual word, then we save 3 tags which could be used for completely other search words. B.t.w. this is the case right now for those whose keywords are not separated by commas.

 

 

If I have a picture of "Mute swans in the Wadden Sea National Park", my tags would be quickly consumed if I needed:

• mute swans
• swans
• Wadden Sea National Park
• Wadden Sea
• sea
• National Park

instead of just

• mute swans
• Wadden Sea National Park

Cheers,

Philippe

Philippe, just curious, are you currently using any quotation marks (for phrases) in your keywords?

[digi2ap]

I have just returned form a photo trip and will be uploading a few hundred images in the next 2-3 weeks.

 

Should I wait to get the new tools before starting keywording, or should I just get on with it as usual and then change when I get access to the new tools?

 

What would you do?

 

Kumar

 

 

Hi Kumar - I would get on with it but make sure you tag using phrases as well as single words. 

[RedSnapper]

Did I already mention I'm screwed?

 

 

Only if *everyone* else has the time/inclination to add the 10 supertags and you don't

In reality, everyone is in exactly the same position, so your standing relative to everyone else for *existing* images is the same as it is now. What you chose to do for new images is , of course, different

 

km

[dmj]

 

 

Did I already mention I'm screwed?

Only if *everyone* else has the time/inclination to add the 10 supertags and you don't

In reality, everyone is in exactly the same position, so your standing relative to everyone else for *existing* images is the same as it is now. What you chose to do for new images is , of course, different

 

km

 

Not at all (or it would, if 15 people would come to help me optimizing my port)

Fact is, those with only a few thousand images will have their port optimized relatively soon. I won't! It'll take me 2,4 years of continuously working through the weekends and no holidays. Which I can't manage. I'm only human and I'd like to spend some time taking pictures as well. I'm a photographer, not a full-time keyworder.

 

Remember the vast majority here has not more than 3000-4000 images. And many of those have their commas preserved in their images and thus will see their phrases intact. I won't.

With only half the supertags, it'll be like fighting in the ring against Mike Tyson with one arm tied behind my back. Weird way of being rewarded for working my butt off

 

Call me a perfectionalist, I just want to deliver good work. Not half the job!

 

Cheers,

Philippe

Export from Bridge to excel and re-upload when the new tools are available? http://digitalphotorepro.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/export-image-file-info-as-csv.html?m=1 hopefully the new tools will maintain imported commas so phrases are linked otherwise it won't be any less work than the current system.

 

Cheers,

David

[Doc]

Hopefully the fact that we will be able to make one change and it can affect many images without deleting the images the other keywords  will make life a bit easier.....

 

Cheers

Kumar

[dmj]

 

 

 

 

Did I already mention I'm screwed?

Only if *everyone* else has the time/inclination to add the 10 supertags and you don't

In reality, everyone is in exactly the same position, so your standing relative to everyone else for *existing* images is the same as it is now. What you chose to do for new images is , of course, different

 

km

Not at all (or it would, if 15 people would come to help me optimizing my port)

Fact is, those with only a few thousand images will have their port optimized relatively soon. I won't! It'll take me 2,4 years of continuously working through the weekends and no holidays. Which I can't manage. I'm only human and I'd like to spend some time taking pictures as well. I'm a photographer, not a full-time keyworder.

 

Remember the vast majority here has not more than 3000-4000 images. And many of those have their commas preserved in their images and thus will see their phrases intact. I won't.

With only half the supertags, it'll be like fighting in the ring against Mike Tyson with one arm tied behind my back. Weird way of being rewarded for working my butt off

 

Call me a perfectionalist, I just want to deliver good work. Not half the job!

 

Cheers,

Philippe

Export from Bridge to excel and re-upload when the new tools are available? http://digitalphotorepro.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/export-image-file-info-as-csv.html?m=1 hopefully the new tools will maintain imported commas so phrases are linked otherwise it won't be any less work than the current system.

 

Cheers,

David

Thanks for the tip. But replacing spaces by commas NOW is not so much the problem because with the new system all my keywords (whether they are separated by commas or not) will be transformed into tags. But I never used quotes. So, I'll end up with a lot of useless tags within the 50 tags limit. I don't need the tag "national" and another "park". I just need the one tag "national park". The same for all those Latin names of animals and plants which all consist of two words. I guess I'll end up with 1/4 or 1/5 useless words so my 50-tags-limit will be quickly filled. I also strongly believe that the one tag "Sciurus vulgaris" will have more weight than the two separate tags "Sciurus" and "vulgaris".

So making changes now on a spreadsheat will have very little effect in my opinion. Whether I review line per line on a spreadsheat or image per image once the new system is in place, will take up the same time. Anyway, I'm forced to wait for the new tools because I certainly need to add supertags to make most of the 10-supertags-limit. Can't do that now on a spreadsheat.

 

Cheers,

Philippe

This was more on the hope that the new system will recognise commas on import and therefore take your phrases from Bridge, so once the new system is in place, rather than now, you could get Alamy to replace all keywords and this should pick up the phrases you already have without additional work.

 

All speculation at the moment unfortunately.

 

Cheers,

David

[IanGibson]

 

 

 

 

Did I already mention I'm screwed?

 

Only if *everyone* else has the time/inclination to add the 10 supertags and you don't

In reality, everyone is in exactly the same position, so your standing relative to everyone else for *existing* images is the same as it is now. What you chose to do for new images is , of course, different

km

Not at all (or it would, if 15 people would come to help me optimizing my port)

Fact is, those with only a few thousand images will have their port optimized relatively soon. I won't! It'll take me 2,4 years of continuously working through the weekends and no holidays. Which I can't manage. I'm only human and I'd like to spend some time taking pictures as well. I'm a photographer, not a full-time keyworder.Remember the vast majority here has not more than 3000-4000 images. And many of those have their commas preserved in their images and thus will see their phrases intact. I won't.

With only half the supertags, it'll be like fighting in the ring against Mike Tyson with one arm tied behind my back. Weird way of being rewarded for working my butt off

Call me a perfectionalist, I just want to deliver good work. Not half the job!

Cheers,

Philippe

Export from Bridge to excel and re-upload when the new tools are available? http://digitalphotorepro.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/export-image-file-info-as-csv.html?m=1 hopefully the new tools will maintain imported commas so phrases are linked otherwise it won't be any less work than the current system.

Cheers,

David

 

Thanks for the tip. But replacing spaces by commas NOW is not so much the problem because with the new system all my keywords (whether they are separated by commas or not) will be transformed into tags. But I never used quotes. So, I'll end up with a lot of useless tags within the 50 tags limit. I don't need the tag "national" and another "park". I just need the one tag "national park". The same for all those Latin names of animals and plants which all consist of two words. I guess I'll end up with 1/4 or 1/5 useless words so my 50-tags-limit will be quickly filled. I also strongly believe that the one tag "Sciurus vulgaris" will have more weight than the two separate tags "Sciurus" and "vulgaris". 

 

So making changes now on a spreadsheat will have very little effect in my opinion. Whether I review line per line on a spreadsheat or image per image once the new system is in place, will take up the same time. Anyway, I'm forced to wait for the new tools because I certainly need to add supertags to make most of the 10-supertags-limit. Can't do that now on a spreadsheat.

 

Cheers,

Philippe

Existing images are not subject to the 50 tag limit. If you have 100 keywords on an image now, you will have 100 tags on that image under the new system.

 

Until we get more information, we don't really know how the keywords will be transformed into tags.

 

I'm not saying you're not screwed, just that you don't really know for certain how screwed.

 

Altering complex systems will always have unintended consequences, let's hope that something can be done to minimise them.

[Camera Girl]

OK Guys - I am just wondering whether we need to panic quite as much as we are.  Apparently, I have it on good authority from a linguist, that the average word length in the English language is 7 letters.  Our essential keywords are limited to 50 characters, so on average they will contain 7 words (now to be called tags).  All of these will become the new supertags.  Then, the first three of our Main Keywords will also be supertags.

 

Our Main Keywords are limited to 300 characters - so on average will contain 43 tags.  So all those will become tags.  It is probably only the words in the Comprehensive section that will drop off the scale.  To be honest I very rarely have any words in that section on the basis that the most relevant words pertaining to a particular image have already been mentioned.

 

There are couple of worries though.  I do often duplicate my essential keywords in the main keyword list if I don't need the extra 'character space' that deleting them would give - mainly due to laziness - no idea if that gives me any advantage in a search (though according to a previous post it possibly does).  Doing this may mean that about three of my supertags will be duplicated which is obviously a waste, unless Alamy's transfer system is sophisticated enough to avoid that.

 

Secondly, I don't know about commas.  I haven't been using them due to them using up character space, so if I now need to do so or all my keywords will now look like a single tag - probably a nonsensical one as the final word is unlikely to be complete - then I, like Phillipe, am screwed.  But tbh I can't believe Alamy would be daft enough to introduce a system that would do this to us...would they?  Financially it would not be to their advantage - most of our collections will be rendered useless until we all re-do our keywords with commas so millions of images would be unsearchable for years.  Remember if we don't earn neither does Alamy.  So I am still putting my faith into at least, Alamy's financial survival instinct and trying not to panic.

 

[Inchiquin]

Secondly, I don't know about commas.  I haven't been using them due to them using up character space, so if I now need to do so or all my keywords will now look like a single tag - probably a nonsensical one as the final word is unlikely to be complete - then I, like Phillipe, am screwed.  But tbh I can't believe Alamy would be daft enough to introduce a system that would do this to us...would they?

 

 

This is exactly my thought. My guess is that before implementing the new system they will take it offline for a few hours while an automated script runs through the database and adds commas between every keyword if that is indeed what will be required in future. If they don't have a programmer capable of writing that then they don't deserve to be in business, and they will certainly go down in my estimation.

Alan

[Niels Quist]

 

Secondly, I don't know about commas.  I haven't been using them due to them using up character space, so if I now need to do so or all my keywords will now look like a single tag - probably a nonsensical one as the final word is unlikely to be complete - then I, like Phillipe, am screwed.  But tbh I can't believe Alamy would be daft enough to introduce a system that would do this to us...would they?

 

 

This is exactly my thought. My guess is that before implementing the new system they will take it offline for a few hours while an automated script runs through the database and adds commas between every keyword if that is indeed what will be required in future. If they don't have a programmer capable of writing that then they don't deserve to be in business, and they will certainly go down in my estimation.

Alan

As said in another thread, I only use commas to make phrases - not between the individual keywords. If you search these images when you are not logged in to Alamy, you see the keywords with a blue comma between, and the phrases as they should be with the commas correctly placed.

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

[Graham]

"Remember if we don't earn neither does Alamy"

 

Not so: the buyer licenses someone else's image which does show up in their search. Alamy still probably makes the sale, and it makes no difference to Alamy whose image is sold.

 

Graham

[Camera Girl]

 

 

Secondly, I don't know about commas.  I haven't been using them due to them using up character space, so if I now need to do so or all my keywords will now look like a single tag - probably a nonsensical one as the final word is unlikely to be complete - then I, like Phillipe, am screwed.  But tbh I can't believe Alamy would be daft enough to introduce a system that would do this to us...would they?

 

 

This is exactly my thought. My guess is that before implementing the new system they will take it offline for a few hours while an automated script runs through the database and adds commas between every keyword if that is indeed what will be required in future. If they don't have a programmer capable of writing that then they don't deserve to be in business, and they will certainly go down in my estimation.

Alan

As said in another thread, I only use commas to make phrases - not between the individual keywords. If you search these images when you are not logged in to Alamy, you see the keywords with a blue comma between, and the phrases as they should be with the commas correctly placed.

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

 

 

 

you see the keywords with a blue comma between, and the phrases as they should be with the commas correctly placed.

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

 

Hmmm...that's interesting.  You are correct Niels.  Not only are the commas added but the keywords have been re-arranged in alphabetical order.  Which of course, makes a nonsense of us carefully keywording in a specific order so that they form popular phrases (but not putting quotation marks round the phrase or separating it out from surrounding keywords with commas).  So for example ruined Cistercian monastery will end up as Cistercian monastery ruined with lots of other keywords in between... American black bear will be American bear black...

[Camera Girl]

"Remember if we don't earn neither does Alamy"

 

Not so: the buyer licenses someone else's image which does show up in their search. Alamy still probably makes the sale, and it makes no difference to Alamy whose image is sold.

 

Graham

I was meaning collectively not as individual photographers, as this change, if they get it wrong, is likely to impact most of us not just one or two.  That is why they need to get it right.

[spacecadet]

 

 

 

Secondly, I don't know about commas.  I haven't been using them due to them using up character space, so if I now need to do so or all my keywords will now look like a single tag - probably a nonsensical one as the final word is unlikely to be complete - then I, like Phillipe, am screwed.  But tbh I can't believe Alamy would be daft enough to introduce a system that would do this to us...would they?

 

 

This is exactly my thought. My guess is that before implementing the new system they will take it offline for a few hours while an automated script runs through the database and adds commas between every keyword if that is indeed what will be required in future. If they don't have a programmer capable of writing that then they don't deserve to be in business, and they will certainly go down in my estimation.

Alan

As said in another thread, I only use commas to make phrases - not between the individual keywords. If you search these images when you are not logged in to Alamy, you see the keywords with a blue comma between, and the phrases as they should be with the commas correctly placed.

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

 

 

 

you see the keywords with a blue comma between, and the phrases as they should be with the commas correctly placed.

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

 

Hmmm...that's interesting.  You are correct Niels.  Not only are the commas added but the keywords have been re-arranged in alphabetical order.  Which of course, makes a nonsense of us carefully keywording in a specific order so that they form popular phrases (but not putting quotation marks round the phrase or separating it out from surrounding keywords with commas).  So for example ruined Cistercian monastery will end up as Cistercian monastery ruined with lots of other keywords in between... American black bear will be American bear black...

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but alphabetical order is merely how they appear on the image page. The search algorithm respects your keyword placement in MI.

[RedSnapper]

 the first three of our Main Keywords will also be supertags.

 

 

On what do you base that?

 

km

[naughtygoat]

Hi all,

 

Gotta say I feel bad for you people with thousands of images, regarding the Keyword Changes.   Not likely to be feasible to re-keyword that many...

 

I have submitted a couple of images.  Only intend to submit my few worthy.  Like to take my time with everything anyway...

 

I confess since I have some images up I'm feeling a little more competitive!  Proud of my new babies!

 

For what it's worth, from browsing the photos, it seems like a lot of people just don't make much effort with their Keywording, so those that do will still be rewarded.

 

Vickie.

[Inchiquin]

 

 

 

Are you sure the comma is not there already automatically added?

 

 

If it was then Manage Images wouldn't know which of your keywords have commas and which don't, which it does know.

 

Alan

[Camera Girl]

 

 the first three of our Main Keywords will also be supertags.

 

 

On what do you base that?

 

km

 

Average word length = 7 characters.  Max characters in essential keywords = 50.  50 divided by 7 = 7 (approx) So the 7 essential keywords will end up as supertags automatically, thus leaving another 3 words (10 supertags max so 10-7=3) from main keywords to get converted to supertags - presumably if its all done automatically it will be the first three - unless they have a clever system that will ignore any words that were repeated in the essentials and are therefore already supertags and just chose the first three that are not already there.  This is of course, working on average word length, so only average and not absolute values - it may be more or less depending on the actual keywords.

 

All makes perfect sense to ..... my female brain!

[IanGibson]

 

 

 the first three of our Main Keywords will also be supertags.

 

 

On what do you base that?

 

km

 

Average word length = 7 characters.  Max characters in essential keywords = 50.  50 divided by 7 = 7 (approx) So the 7 essential keywords will end up as supertags automatically, thus leaving another 3 words (10 supertags max so 10-7=3) from main keywords to get converted to supertags - presumably if its all done automatically it will be the first three - unless they have a clever system that will ignore any words that were repeated in the essentials and are therefore already supertags and just chose the first three that are not already there.  This is of course, working on average word length, so only average and not absolute values - it may be more or less depending on the actual keywords.

 

All makes perfect sense to ..... my female brain!

 

 

 

I'm not aware that Alamy have said that they will add words from the Main keywords as super tags?

[Bill Brooks]

High anxiety for all of us with the change, but maybe we should all take a deep breath and read this while doing so.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-growth/how-complaining-rewires-your-brain-for-negativity/article31893948/

[dmj]

 

 

 

the first three of our Main Keywords will also be supertags.

 

On what do you base that?

 

km

Average word length = 7 characters. Max characters in essential keywords = 50. 50 divided by 7 = 7 (approx) So the 7 essential keywords will end up as supertags automatically, thus leaving another 3 words (10 supertags max so 10-7=3) from main keywords to get converted to supertags - presumably if its all done automatically it will be the first three - unless they have a clever system that will ignore any words that were repeated in the essentials and are therefore already supertags and just chose the first three that are not already there. This is of course, working on average word length, so only average and not absolute values - it may be more or less depending on the actual keywords.

 

All makes perfect sense to ..... my female brain!

 

I'm not aware that Alamy have said that they will add words from the Main keywords as super tags?

No I've not seen that anywhere. Essential keywords will become supertags, but I doubt Alamy will make up the quota of 10 by selecting from elsewhere.

 

Cheers,

David