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"Very small change" ...??? I think you don't realize what's going to happen. It's a LOT more serious than you apparently think. 

  • commas  >>> gone!
  • carefully placed keywords in specific orders >>>>> gone!
  • phrases >>>> gone! (see printsreen in blog. You see phrases? I don't)

That's no improvement, that's a major step back and frankly making a mess of the keywords by placing everything in alphabetical order without a second's thought of the consequences concerning search results. Is that Alamy's concern? Nope! What do they care if my image sells or that of someone else. For Alamy, a sale is a sale. Well, for me, a sale is a sale when I see the money on MY bank account, not someone else's  :angry:

 

Lots of contributors here with small ports. A few weekends work and their images are optimized. What do you have? 13,000 images? 10 minutes per image? Do the math! Happy re-keywording!  ;)

 

Cheers,

Philippe

 

 

Philippe, help me understand.  I see all three of those "issues" currently. 

 

Right now, MY commas are ignored and each keyword is separated by a comma and a space when I look at an image as a customer would.  In manage images, the commas (converted to semis in PS and deleted on upload) are not there - only a space.

That means that currently, binomial latin names are separated and placed in (stupid) alphabetical order.

Phrases?  Never had a chance before (see the part about MY commas ignored).

 

So how could things get worse?  If we can now use phrases, all the better.  Yes, going back is a pain.  But at least we have that option now, whereas before pure alphabetical words were not ideal (i.e., stupid).

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Coping with change is part of life.

 
In photography I have gone from B&W neg to colour transparency. 35MM to 6X7, to 4X5. Film to digital. Archive in film boxes to, digital on tape, then CD, then DVD, then Hard Drive. Abandonment of early photo programs I wrote in Basic computer language for MSDOS. Photoshop 2 to Photoshop 13. Change of direct stock sales by myself, to sales by agent. Pruning of none performing agents. Multitudes of small Mom and Pop agencies, that photographers could play one against the other, to mega-agencies answerable only to big banks. The industry wide change of agents who had legal obligations to the photographer, to libraries who have almost no legal obligations. Reduction of photographers commission from 60% to 20% in some places. Photography a profession, to everyone is a photographer. Ease of copyright theft over the internet. 
 
I have survived all of the above, and have turned some of it to my advantage.
 
As I have done in the past, I will examine this very small Alamy change, and treat it as an opportunity to turn that small change to my advantage. This will probably include some overdue re keywording and overdue culling of images, and my collection will be the stronger for it.
 
In the words of John F. Kennedy. “Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.”

 

 

"Very small change" ...??? I think you don't realize what's going to happen. It's a LOT more serious than you apparently think. 

  • commas  >>> gone!
  • carefully placed keywords in specific orders >>>>> gone!
  • phrases >>>> gone! (see printsreen in blog. You see phrases? I don't)

That's no improvement, that's a major step back and frankly making a mess of the keywords by placing everything in alphabetical order without a second's thought of the consequences concerning search results. Is that Alamy's concern? Nope! What do they care if my image sells or that of someone else. For Alamy, a sale is a sale. Well, for me, a sale is a sale when I see the money on MY bank account, not someone else's  :angry:

 

Lots of contributors here with small ports. A few weekends work and their images are optimized. What do you have? 13,000 images? 10 minutes per image? Do the math! Happy re-keywording!  ;)

 

Cheers,

Philippe

 

 

Philippe, help me understand.  I see all three of those "issues" currently. 

 

Right now, MY commas are ignored and each keyword is separated by a comma and a space when I look at an image as a customer would.  In manage images, the commas (converted to semis in PS and deleted on upload) are not there - only a space.

That means that currently, binomial latin names are separated and placed in (stupid) alphabetical order.

Phrases?  Never had a chance before (see the part about MY commas ignored).

 

So how could things get worse?  If we can now use phrases, all the better.  Yes, going back is a pain.  But at least we have that option now, whereas before pure alphabetical words were not ideal (i.e., stupid).

 

 

I believe if you put commas in when you are in MI, Alamy treats any words between commas as a phrase.  This happened about a year and a half ago I think.  So that has been available for some time.

 

Jill

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Coping with change is part of life.

 
In photography I have gone from B&W neg to colour transparency. 35MM to 6X7, to 4X5. Film to digital. Archive in film boxes to, digital on tape, then CD, then DVD, then Hard Drive. Abandonment of early photo programs I wrote in Basic computer language for MSDOS. Photoshop 2 to Photoshop 13. Change of direct stock sales by myself, to sales by agent. Pruning of none performing agents. Multitudes of small Mom and Pop agencies, that photographers could play one against the other, to mega-agencies answerable only to big banks. The industry wide change of agents who had legal obligations to the photographer, to libraries who have almost no legal obligations. Reduction of photographers commission from 60% to 20% in some places. Photography a profession, to everyone is a photographer. Ease of copyright theft over the internet. 
 
I have survived all of the above, and have turned some of it to my advantage.
 
As I have done in the past, I will examine this very small Alamy change, and treat it as an opportunity to turn that small change to my advantage. This will probably include some overdue re keywording and overdue culling of images, and my collection will be the stronger for it.
 
In the words of John F. Kennedy. “Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.”

 

 

"Very small change" ...??? I think you don't realize what's going to happen. It's a LOT more serious than you apparently think. 

  • commas  >>> gone!
  • carefully placed keywords in specific orders >>>>> gone!
  • phrases >>>> gone! (see printsreen in blog. You see phrases? I don't)

That's no improvement, that's a major step back and frankly making a mess of the keywords by placing everything in alphabetical order without a second's thought of the consequences concerning search results. Is that Alamy's concern? Nope! What do they care if my image sells or that of someone else. For Alamy, a sale is a sale. Well, for me, a sale is a sale when I see the money on MY bank account, not someone else's  :angry:

 

Lots of contributors here with small ports. A few weekends work and their images are optimized. What do you have? 13,000 images? 10 minutes per image? Do the math! Happy re-keywording!  ;)

 

Cheers,

Philippe

 

 

Philippe, help me understand.  I see all three of those "issues" currently. 

 

Right now, MY commas are ignored and each keyword is separated by a comma and a space when I look at an image as a customer would.  In manage images, the commas (converted to semis in PS and deleted on upload) are not there - only a space.

That means that currently, binomial latin names are separated and placed in (stupid) alphabetical order.

Phrases?  Never had a chance before (see the part about MY commas ignored).

 

So how could things get worse?  If we can now use phrases, all the better.  Yes, going back is a pain.  But at least we have that option now, whereas before pure alphabetical words were not ideal (i.e., stupid).

 

 

You are confusing the new Alamy Image Manager with the image page which the customer sees. You have to compare the new Alamy Image Manager with the current Manage Images page. In "Manage Images" your keywords are NOT placed alphabetically (at least, mine aren't. I keyword in Bridge, not in Lightroom). And it's that order that determines the search results. Having the words New York city in the right order (with or without commas) will bring your image way further up the search results than when you place them as  city, channel, door, house, New, police, ship, walkers, walking, York. And THAT's exactly what's going to happen. Look for yourself at the blog. The phrases will simply be gone, we'll be left with only a big mess ......... in alphabetical order.

 

Cheers,

Philippe

 

If that's the case, then we are indeed going backwards for existing images.

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  • phrases >>>> gone! (see printsreen in blog. You see phrases? I don't)

Bottom row, left seems to be a two word phrase.

Stockimo, another Alamy product, allows a string of words to be entered as a single tag.

 

Alamy treats any words between commas as a phrase.  This happened about a year and a half ago I think.

 

In the 8 or 9 years I've been here this has always worked.

 

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  • phrases >>>> gone! (see printsreen in blog. You see phrases? I don't)

Bottom row, left seems to be a two word phrase.

Stockimo, another Alamy product, allows allows a string of words to be entered as a single tag.

 

Alamy treats any words between commas as a phrase.  This happened about a year and a half ago I think.

 

In the 8 or 9 years I've been here this has always worked.

 

Doesn't mean anything Kevin. Maybe contributor simply didn't use phrases. 

 

Just wait.... high possible that you are wasting energy for nothing  :)

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MircoV,

 

Not wasting energy; I have no worries at all regarding my small collection. I am, however, trying to point out how the system has worked for me in the past, and may in the future. Better to wait for the new tools or more info, for sure. Thanks!

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I use commas in Bridge. When the images and keywords arrive in Manage images, there are no commas. It has not yet been a problem.

 

I read the Alamy blog post very carefully, several times. I do not see the problems Phillipe sees.  If anyone is upset, I think they should reread the blog post, and then wait for the final explanation.

 

And Phillipe my 13,000 images (to your 43,000) would be a keywording job roughly 1/3 of yours, whatever the outcome.

 

The undercurrent here is that  Alamy has consulted the wrong photographers. I have no way of judging that, except that they did not consult me, and that should not be a judgement factor at all.

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Bill, we have the same workflow. I also use bridge and my commas are also stripped in "Manage Images". My keywords are kept in the same well thought-over order though. I suppose that's the same with your keywords? What you don't seem to realise is that the new system will place your keywords alphabetically. Meaning you'll end with a jumble of words which will have lost all cohesion, as if ordened by a baboon. That'll have huge consequences for our appearances in the search results. You understand my worries now?

 

Cheers,

Philippe

 

 

 

Do you have any hard evidence to back up your claim of alphabetical keyword ordering? Or is this just your interpretation of the single public screenshot available?

 

Philippe, with all due respect, I think you're just worrying too much at the moment. If keywords get alphabetically ordered, then it might be bad for us. The same if commas are not recognized. But as long as we don't have evidence on this, why worry? Worrying won't change anything, anyways.

 

 

BTW, to the person who said there's an average of 7 words with 7 characters each in the 50 character essential keyword field: you forgot the spaces between the words, so, assuming 7 characters per word, 6 words fit into the 50 character field.

 

 

Christoph

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Phillipe:

 
Help me here.
 
I have reread the Alamy blog post, and I cannot see where it says your “keywords will be placed alphabetically.” Or that the information could be interpreted that way.
 
After reading Christoph’s post I went back and looked at the screenshot, but cannot use it for any firm conclusion.
 
If you mean on the buy page, under the enlarged image where they are already arranged alphabetically, I think that is a good thing. A good thing because they are directing the customer away from buying your image. Why not have it a messy bad search, to your advantage, at that point?
 
The enlarged similar thumbnails on that page seem to be a good thing for me, because my extra similars always appear on top.
 
The Alamy Blog says “We want to make it clear that any work you’ve already done with the existing tools will not be wasted. Any annotation already completed or currently being worked on will transfer over to the new system.” and I have to take them at their word at this point.
 
Here is a very good thing for me about the new tools, that I posted to another part of the forum. If it is true that is.
 
“It seems you no longer have to answer the “how many people question” under the new “manage images” tools, so this people/model release/RM requirement may change in the future.
 
To quote the Alamy Blog “The only mandatory fields are now Pseudonym, Caption, Tags (minimum 5), Licence type and Image type. Everything else is completely optional.””
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Here is a very good thing for me about the new tools, that I posted to another part of the forum. If it is true that is.
 
“It seems you no longer have to answer the “how many people question” under the new “manage images” tools, so this people/model release/RM requirement may change in the future.
 
To quote the Alamy Blog “The only mandatory fields are now Pseudonym, Caption, Tags (minimum 5), Licence type and Image type. Everything else is completely optional.””

 

 

I read it this way too. But if you want to sell RF without having the new "Editorial Only" box checked, then I bet you would still need to do so. Besides, if you don't select a number of people, you are potentially losing sales as I'm assuming the buyers will still be able to search based on the number of people in the photo and if you do not select a number of people, you're photo would presumably be excluded form search results.

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There seems to be an assumption here that you should use all 10 super-tags to increase image visibility. However, we don't actually know in detail how Alamy's search engine orders/ranks the matching results it finds.

 

I seem to recall a forum discussion many moons ago that if the customer typed in one keyword, that images with only that keyword in the essential field would be ranked more highly than images that contained that keyword amongst several others.  

 

Or was I dreaming?

 

Should be easy to test using BHZ with the  current system, but then the new system may behave quite differently.

 

We'll just have to wait and see. 

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Should be easy to test using BHZ with the  current system, but then the new system may behave quite differently.

 

 

 

I guess we'll have to make BHZ a super-tag in the future.

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There's a lot of talk on this thread about commas, speech marks, spaces and what will and won't turn into a tag... but I'm thinking we can probably already see what to expect (speculating a bit, I admit). If you search for an image as a buyer does today and zoom it, it already shows a list of "keywords" associated with that image which I assume going forward will be the tags. For example..

 

tags_zpsh4bn6qjv.jpg

 

 

In my example, I have a couple of multi word keywords (e.g "japanese maple") which I assume will become multi-word tags. If this had showed up as "japeneses, maple" then I would expect to get two tags when the switchover happens. But as it is listed "japanese maple" (with no comma as seen on the zoom screen), then I am expecting that this will become one tag.

 

For the record, I use commas but no speech marks.

 

Also worth noting, is that I can find this image by putting the words "maple leaf" into the Alamy search. It still finds this image even though 'maple' isn't a keyword (and I'm presuming a tag in the future) on it's own.

 

I can see and sympathise with the problem that Philiippe and other contributors with large collections who do not use commas might have. But perhaps there is an opportunity now to proactively search out a few of the best sellers and fix them now using what the buyers already see as a guide?

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"t I can find this image by putting the words "maple leaf" into the Alamy search. It still finds this image even though 'maple' isn't a keyword....on its own"

 

But it is a word in the Caption...which is also searchable

 

km

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"t I can find this image by putting the words "maple leaf" into the Alamy search. It still finds this image even though 'maple' isn't a keyword....on its own"

 

But it is a word in the Caption...which is also searchable

 

km

 

That is true.. well spotted! :-)

 

But i can also find it if i search for "palmatum leaf". "Palmatum" isn't in the caption and also isn't a keyword in it's own right.

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Yes, I keyword after uploading. And I totally get Philippe's problem... the blog is unclear as to how images keyworded with the likes of bridge prior to uploading will be handled. And it also doesn't solve the fact that you will be able to have 10 supertags which need selecting somehow where the 'essential keywords' field only has 50 characters and could be quickly filled up. But at least this might be a mechanism to allow people to at least understand if they have a problem and maybe cherry pick a few important images to "fix" using the existing Alamy tools.

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I'm getting very confused amongst all of this and I wish Alamy would jump in a clear up a few points.

 

Let's say it in tags: Alamy dropping in penny progress still work

 

Cheers,

Philippe  ;) (now off to the coast to harass some seabirds with my 200-400/4  :ph34r: )

 

 

Sorry, but we couldn’t find any matches

  • Try refining your keywords and make sure the spelling is correct
  • Check out our search tips page for more advice

:P

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In my example, I have a couple of multi word keywords (e.g "japanese maple") which I assume will become multi-word tags. If this had showed up as "japeneses, maple" then I would expect to get two tags when the switchover happens. But as it is listed "japanese maple" (with no comma as seen on the zoom screen), then I am expecting that this will become one tag.

 

For the record, I use commas but no speech marks.

 

Also worth noting, is that I can find this image by putting the words "maple leaf" into the Alamy search. It still finds this image even though 'maple' isn't a keyword (and I'm presuming a tag in the future) on it's own.

 

I can see and sympathise with the problem that Philiippe and other contributors with large collections who do not use commas might have. But perhaps there is an opportunity now to proactively search out a few of the best sellers and fix them now using what the buyers already see as a guide?

 

 

 

We have been told several times that we do not need to use commas. Do they actually make a difference other than what's displayed when looking at the image details? Just as with quotes, they seem to cause more issues than anything else, and past discussions about it haven't been taken seriously by most, including Alamy.

 

By the way, those with smaller portfolios, like myself, have the same problem. I only have about 2600 images live at the moment and that's still many weeks solid work to edit tags in them all and do a good job.

 

It would be very unwise for anyone to start editing their keywords now to add commas, without knowing some facts, like if that will cause words WITHOUT commas in-between to be entered as multi-word tags. This is partly why we need Alamy to answer our questions.

 

Geoff.

I've been using commas and quotes for my last 70-80 pages. But I use them for every tag. If I have a phrase in quotes, but have single tags between quotes, each single has a comma. That way, I've avoided singles being turned into a nonsensical phrase.

It has been working beautifully.

It'll be interesting to see what my fields turn into down the bumpy or smooth road.

I also have the bulk of my port, beyond those last 70-80 pages, annoited with quotes and square brackets, without commas. So I'll have two methods to look at.

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As mentioned in the blog, we know there will be lots of questions but we won't be answering everything at this stage for a few reasons:

  • Tweaks are still being made to the system so things may change
  • You will be provided with comprehensive instructions and help once you have the tools 
  • Until you have the new system and have used it, more details may leave you with more questions 

It's been mentioned a few times through this thread that we should've had people who post here testing. Well, we've asked our testers not to post details in the forum for now but we'd like to assure you that there are numerous posters from this very thread that are using the new tools and sending us feedback daily and it's feedback that we are assessing and implementing where appropriate.

 

Some other clarifications:

  • ​By the time the system is rolled out to all existing / legacy users, existing keywords will not be alphabetized
  • Commas and semicolons used with keywords within IPTC data will be recognised for all images uploaded with the new system 
  • Duplicated tags will not be able to be entered with the new system. For existing images with duplicate keywords there will be no search advantage to this

We have an ongoing group of test users who continue to provide us with really useful feedback and we are making tweaks and improvements all the time. This is the whole point of having a phased roll-out. :)

 

As mentioned in our original blog, we know there are many questions that you will have but our answer to them today may be different to tomorrow whilst fixes are made and things added / removed. For this reason we hope you can appreciate that it's not possible for us to answer questions in this thread in an ongoing basis. Providing further detailed info or instructions at this stage, before the majority of you have the tools, will likely only lead to more questions. When the new tools go live, full support and help will be available to you.

 

We're convinced you're going to love the new tools once you've gotten to know them! For now, if you're using the existing system there is no need to do anything different, just carry on as normal.

 

Cheers

 

James A

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As mentioned in the blog, we know there will be lots of questions but we won't be answering everything at this stage for a few reasons:

  • Tweaks are still being made to the system so things may change
  • You will be provided with comprehensive instructions and help once you have the tools 
  • Until you have the new system and have used it, more details may leave you with more questions 

It's been mentioned a few times through this thread that we should've had people who post here testing. Well, we've asked our testers not to post details in the forum for now but we'd like to assure you that there are numerous posters from this very thread that are using the new tools and sending us feedback daily and it's feedback that we are assessing and implementing where appropriate.

 

Some other clarifications:

  • ​By the time the system is rolled out to all existing / legacy users, existing keywords will not be alphabetized
  • Commas and semicolons used with keywords within IPTC data will be recognised for all images uploaded with the new system 
  • Duplicated tags will not be able to be entered with the new system. For existing images with duplicate keywords there will be no search advantage to this

We have an ongoing group of test users who continue to provide us with really useful feedback and we are making tweaks and improvements all the time. This is the whole point of having a phased roll-out. :)

 

As mentioned in our original blog, we know there are many questions that you will have but our answer to them today may be different to tomorrow whilst fixes are made and things added / removed. For this reason we hope you can appreciate that it's not possible for us to answer questions in this thread in an ongoing basis. Providing further detailed info or instructions at this stage, before the majority of you have the tools, will likely only lead to more questions. When the new tools go live, full support and help will be available to you.

 

We're convinced you're going to love the new tools once you've gotten to know them!

 

Cheers

 

James A

 

 

Thanks for the update - I'm looking forward to it!

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As mentioned in the blog, we know there will be lots of questions but we won't be answering everything at this stage for a few reasons:

  • Tweaks are still being made to the system so things may change
  • You will be provided with comprehensive instructions and help once you have the tools 
  • Until you have the new system and have used it, more details may leave you with more questions 

It's been mentioned a few times through this thread that we should've had people who post here testing. Well, we've asked our testers not to post details in the forum for now but we'd like to assure you that there are numerous posters from this very thread that are using the new tools and sending us feedback daily and it's feedback that we are assessing and implementing where appropriate.

 

Some other clarifications:

  • ​By the time the system is rolled out to all existing / legacy users, existing keywords will not be alphabetized
  • Commas and semicolons used with keywords within IPTC data will be recognised for all images uploaded with the new system 
  • Duplicated tags will not be able to be entered with the new system. For existing images with duplicate keywords there will be no search advantage to this

We have an ongoing group of test users who continue to provide us with really useful feedback and we are making tweaks and improvements all the time. This is the whole point of having a phased roll-out. :)

 

As mentioned in our original blog, we know there are many questions that you will have but our answer to them today may be different to tomorrow whilst fixes are made and things added / removed. For this reason we hope you can appreciate that it's not possible for us to answer questions in this thread in an ongoing basis. Providing further detailed info or instructions at this stage, before the majority of you have the tools, will likely only lead to more questions. When the new tools go live, full support and help will be available to you.

 

We're convinced you're going to love the new tools once you've gotten to know them!

 

Cheers

 

James A

 

 

Thanks for the update - I'm looking forward to it!

 

Can you say whether the old system will be available in parallel? It works well for me and i'd be surprised if I were alone.

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