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Peter Noyce

Supplying photo by direct download (UK)

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I'm guessing a few people on this forum have the likes of a photoshelter / photodeck account to also supply images worldwide including EU states by direct download.

I'm also guessing that most of those will not be registered for VAT as being under the theashold.

 

How many have seen the poorly publicised requirement that as of 1 Jan 2015 they will need to obtain a VAT number and charge VAT at the prevailing recipient rate for EU countries regardless of their turnover and as they have to keep records to also register under the Data Protection Act

 

Details Here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance#section-2

 

Oh Joy

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

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Guest

It's no big deal, VAT registration is easy and all you need to do is get a decent accounts sheet with a VAT macro..... sum total will be filling in one of the extra EU boxes each quarter.

 

B2B won't be affected in price as no VAT is charged anyhow.

Edited by Guest

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I'm guessing a few people on this forum have the likes of a photoshelter / photodeck account to also supply images worldwide including EU states by direct download.

I'm also guessing that most of those will not be registered for VAT as being under the theashold.

 

How many have seen the poorly publicised requirement that as of 1 Jan 2015 they will need to obtain a VAT number and charge VAT at the prevailing recipient rate for EU countries regardless of their turnover and as they have to keep records to also register under the Data Protection Act

 

Details Here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance#section-2

 

Oh Joy

 

Ouch! That will be a bureaucratic nightmare for small digital service providers. I will be canceliing my Photoshelter ecommerce account and will only supply direct after personal contact. That individually commissioned image sent by manual email seems to fall outside the scope of the legislation. My only directr sales havbe only ever been through direct negotiation or libraries (their problem); I don't make sales through Photoshelter anyway.

 

So much for the Internet opening up competition to allows SMEs to compete withthe big boys and girls.

 

Typical politics - solve one problem and create 5 others and make it difficult for the vast majority who are not part of the original problem! Amazon et al will find a way round it while the rst of us are stymied.

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

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I am below the VAT threshold. I ran a vat registered consultancy until recently and was relieved to give up being an unpaid tax collector. Keeping records for potentially 28 EU states will be a substantial additional burden if you have more than a handful of sales per month. How long will it be before everyone jumps on the bandwagonm and we have to account for US, Australian, China (state) taxes? I see this rapidly becoming unworkable and the rise of yet another set of leaches, middle men, offering "services".

 

I make so few sales I will do without automatic download or online ordering.

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

 

 

So it won't apply to Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al? So what's the problem it is there to solve?

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I am below the VAT threshold. I ran a vat registered consultancy until recently and was relieved to give up being an unpaid tax collector. Keeping records for potentially 28 EU states will be a substantial additional burden if you have more than a handful of sales per month. How long will it be before everyone jumps on the bandwagonm and we have to account for US, Australian, China (state) taxes? I see this rapidly becoming unworkable and the rise of yet another set of leaches, middle men, offering "services".

 

I make so few sales I will do without automatic download or online ordering.

Autodownload can be got around but I'm not sure what they mean by 'Link to online content or download sent by manual e-mail'

If you sell an image manually so to speak but deliver by dropbox it seems to be still covered.

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I am below the VAT threshold. I ran a vat registered consultancy until recently and was relieved to give up being an unpaid tax collector. Keeping records for potentially 28 EU states will be a substantial additional burden if you have more than a handful of sales per month. How long will it be before everyone jumps on the bandwagonm and we have to account for US, Australian, China (state) taxes? I see this rapidly becoming unworkable and the rise of yet another set of leaches, middle men, offering "services".

 

I make so few sales I will do without automatic download or online ordering.

Autodownload can be got around but I'm not sure what they mean by 'Link to online content or download sent by manual e-mail'

If you sell an image manually so to speak but deliver by dropbox it seems to be still covered.

It does doesn't it. I suppose one could send it in an email and that might not be covered it would seem.

 

But the aggravation and the additional administration will put off many small businesses. Especially all those marginal and micro startups that are so desperately needed. It puts us at a disadvantage to the rest of the world if it does not apply to them but when did EU or UK governments ever worry about such unforeseen, or disregarded, consequences. Inconvenience everybody to solve a problem created by the few who will simply ignore it - look at all the rules about taxing and insuring cars , buying number plates etc in the UK - so those it is supposed to catch ignore it and don't register their vehicle at all; the registered law abiding get fined for genuine oversights and mistakes.

 

I need a fulfillment service in Hong Kong or the Cayman Islands.

Edited by Martin P Wilson

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Guest

 

 

 

Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

 

 

So it won't apply to Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al? So what's the problem it is there to solve?

 

 

The issue was about VAT, Amazon operate in UK and charge VAT in UK, so Amazon are a red herring. This is about a company setting up in an EU state with lower VAT than UK and charging the VAT for their home territory on supplies rather than the UK VAT rate.

 

Adobe, for UK dls, are ironically in Ireland so actually charge VAT at a higher rate...for B2C. For B2B there's no change....as no VAT is charged.

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

 

 

My comment was about no-EU suppliers.. Strictly speaking the buyer should pay VAT on purchases from outside the EU. Businesses probably may well do so because they can recover it but how many people buy equipment from say Hong Kong do not pay duty or VAT even though by law they supposed to?

 

So HK, Japanese or US suppliers can supply and get away without charging vat so EU businesses, especially small ones, are now at a significant disavantage.

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

 

So it won't apply to Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al? So what's the problem it is there to solve?

 

The issue was about VAT, Amazon operate in UK and charge VAT in UK, so Amazon are a red herring. This is about a company setting up in an EU state with lower VAT than UK and charging the VAT for their home territory on supplies rather than the UK VAT rate.

 

Adobe, for UK dls, are ironically in Ireland so actually charge VAT at a higher rate...for B2C. For B2B there's no change....as no VAT is charged.

Amazon are based in either Belgium or Luxembourg, I believe , for their digital download business (Kindle books etc).

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Oh, God!

 

Easier to refuse sales to other EU member states!

 

I haven't read the details ('cos it ain't gonna apply to me!), but the 'VAT Mini One Stop Shop' (MOSS) should at east simplify things, for those for whom this is going to be an issue?

 

What happens once we're out of Europe?! ;)

 

MOSS solve it, don't be silly! It means a lot more record keeping. How do you know where a digital download has gone? IP addresses etc are unreliable. Since when has a government system made ANYTHING eassier?

 

How will they enforce it on non EU companies?

 

There's no VAT on non-EU supplies so no need to enforce it. The details they ask for are pretty much what you would get with most EU transactions, after all you generally know who's paying you.

 

So it won't apply to Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al? So what's the problem it is there to solve?

 

The issue was about VAT, Amazon operate in UK and charge VAT in UK, so Amazon are a red herring. This is about a company setting up in an EU state with lower VAT than UK and charging the VAT for their home territory on supplies rather than the UK VAT rate.

 

Adobe, for UK dls, are ironically in Ireland so actually charge VAT at a higher rate...for B2C. For B2B there's no change....as no VAT is charged.

Amazon are based in either Belgium or Luxembourg, I believe , for their digital download business (Kindle books etc).

 

 

For the moment, but their online ordering service could be based anywhere in the world.

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Why does government put such a  burden on artists/photographers and small business?
Seems so counter productive;especially in this economy where big companies,at least in the US are hiring more part timers than full time so they don't have to pick up the cost of health insurance.

 

 

I know some people who have pretty much given up on trying to start small side businesses in the arts and have joined barter clubs and groups just to avoid all the high fees and time spent on bookkeeping.

 

L

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I'm guessing a few people on this forum have the likes of a photoshelter / photodeck account to also supply images worldwide including EU states by direct download.

I'm also guessing that most of those will not be registered for VAT as being under the theashold.

 

How many have seen the poorly publicised requirement that as of 1 Jan 2015 they will need to obtain a VAT number and charge VAT at the prevailing recipient rate for EU countries regardless of their turnover and as they have to keep records to also register under the Data Protection Act

 

Details Here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance/revenue-and-customs-brief-46-2014-vat-rule-change-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop-additional-guidance#section-2

 

Oh Joy

 

Ouch! That will be a bureaucratic nightmare for small digital service providers. I will be canceliing my Photoshelter ecommerce account and will only supply direct after personal contact. That individually commissioned image sent by manual email seems to fall outside the scope of the legislation. My only directr sales havbe only ever been through direct negotiation or libraries (their problem); I don't make sales through Photoshelter anyway.

 

So much for the Internet opening up competition to allows SMEs to compete withthe big boys and girls.

 

Typical politics - solve one problem and create 5 others and make it difficult for the vast majority who are not part of the original problem! Amazon et al will find a way round it while the rst of us are stymied.

 

 

On the bright side (I suppose), all my PhotoShelter customers, such as they are, have been in the USA and Canada.

 

This begs the question, do photo buyers even know that PS exists over there on the far side of the pond?

 

 Also, you can set things up on PS so that downloads have to be approved before they go through.

Edited by John Mitchell

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My Photoshelter is embedded in/integrated with my own web site and I have never had a sale through PS. I have had people approach me as a result of my site and buy a print or licence/file - negotiated and then emailed at a suitable size. I would argue that is digital delivery of an individually commissioned image and outside the scope.

 

Such sales are so rare I could manage wiothout them but on the other hand I am actively trying develop my business so all channels are valuable.

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Some further thoughts:

  • It does apparently apply to non-EU suppliers (through their merchant services, so expect increased charges)
  • It will apply to tangible good such as prints by 2016
  • Will apply if you sell ads on your web site apparently
  • See Daily Telegraph article
  • Will everybody play by the same rules? I doubt it if past experience is anything to go by; the UKbueaucrats and politicians will gold plate the rules for their own ends and track some extra rules on, Germans will probably be compliant and many of the others will be "flexible" in their interpretation. But then a lot EU governments do not like small businesses especially one person freelance business - they want people in salaried jobs where they can control them.

 

BTW. Even if you block EU customers and sell only within UK (creates interesting legal position in a supposedly single market) and the rest of the non-EU world could you be dragged into this "scheme" if an EU copyright infringer uses an image? If you go after them do you become liable for vat on the compensation for the theft? Do you have to then start accounting for VAT and incur the costs of having to register with data protection so that you can keep the necessary electronic records for 10 years. That in itself is an increase on the 7 years business records were always required to be kept.

 

Or does copyright infringement become an even bigger cross-border free for all than it already is?

Edited by Martin P Wilson

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Martin,

 

I think I'm right in saying that VAT is chargable on print sales/licenses but not on money recovered as recompense for an infringement.

 

I've had sales to EU countries and already have to fill in a form every quarter listing them. If you get the VAT or equivilent number from the customer you don't need to charge the VAT but it needs to be shown on the invoice and listed on the form.

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Martin,

 

I think I'm right in saying that VAT is chargable on print sales/licenses but not on money recovered as recompense for an infringement.

 

I've had sales to EU countries and already have to fill in a form every quarter listing them. If you get the VAT or equivilent number from the customer you don't need to charge the VAT but it needs to be shown on the invoice and listed on the form.

But only because you're VAT registered. This new law reduces the VAT registration threshold to zero.

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I wonder how these changes will affect sales made through POD sites based in EU countries (or even a certain big one based in "America" that shall remain unnamed).

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I wonder how these changes will affect sales made through POD sites based in EU countries (or even a certain big one based in "America" that shall remain unnamed).

 

I guess it will depend on their business model, If they are the supplier, bill the customer in their name and pay a commision/ royalty to the photographer it will be POD service (and indeed Alamy et al) who will need to be compliant.

 

However something like PhotoShelter and the online print shops that handle the ecommerce but bill on and collect monies on behalf the customer are a a grey area. Are they the supplier or just a service provider? Several seem to see themselves as service providers: we can supply X, Y and Z but in reality it nothing to do with us gov! You are on your own.

 

The EU tax authorities have assumedt the platforms will do the data collection and compliance reporting to allow the small supplier to do their returns and payover the tax. But the small supplier is still n the hookif it is wrong! I don't think they have told many of them though!

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It would appear very small (auto entrepreneur) businesses are completely exempt from this scheme. So surely UK businesses beneath the registration threhold shpuld be completely exempt as well?

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eu vat action is classified as a spam site by Cyren and blocked by many firewalls

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