Paulstw Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Bear with me on the thought process on this one please. I'll keep it to the point, however, will try to show you my train of thought, right or wrong will depend on your experience in this industry. Last night, I hear on the grapevine that a car crashed into a house and is sitting in the living room. Several casualties involved. I rush out and i'm there within 10 mins, and I grab some pics of the scene during a pretty bad spell of rain too. I get back to the car and up the road and literally have the images keyworded, and metadata complete and up via FTP within 45 mins of learning of it. There was not a photog in sight. I was happy with how I went about it, and went to bed. Today I see it's made front page of the Daily Record, but it's not any of my pics? They sent their own staff photographer to get shots. Even the local Herald sent their own guy. Why pay for pics when you can send your own guy right? Naturally I felt a bit pee'd off being pipped at the post by the staffer as usual. It happens, and you learn to live with it, however, it got me thinking. How do you become a staffer? I looked it up and stumbled upon the British Institute of Professional Photographers (BIPP) After a little time on the site I learn of their entry qualification (LBIPP) and the requirements for this. It all seemed like a door had opened and I had found something excellent to work towards, that was until I searched LBIPP on google, and seen some of the galleries of people who had gained this qualification and how amazing their work was. Far and away from anything I've produced and feel a wee bit stupid really. It feels like a long way off at the moment but not something I feel is out of reach, just not at the moment. Does anyone else have experience in this and has it helped with gaining work? I know the qualification is the end game and the journey is the learning process, it's just finding that first step that I find difficult and where to go. I don't want to keep churning out average stuff for my stock port or any corporate clients. My overall aim isn't to be a staff photographer. I just didn't know that there was a recognised qualification out-with doing a degree that actually could hold a lot of weight. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
York Photographer Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 In these days where anyone with a camera calls themselves a Photographer, having a few letters after your name adds to your credibility as a Pro. Most punters don't appreciate the differences between Licentiates, Associates and Fellows, let alone which organisation they are from. BUT professional clients (Architects, Solicitors, Engineers etc etc) who are affiliated to their own professional bodies do put some weight in Professional Qualifications (although they don't always want to pay anymore!). Having gone through the process of gaining L's, A's and F's from both the Master Photographers Association and the BIPP, it does make you push yourself to shoot beyond what you would normally do. And having judged and Mentored for both organisations, I have seen first hand how peoples work has improved along the way. I would say it is definitely worth being in at least one Professional organisation, and attending regional meetings and entering their competitions. Not only for the professional development but for the PR and value you can add to your business every time you win something or gain the next level of qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstw Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Thanks for that Rob. Certainly something to work up to. I agree with you about the opening line. I was that guy if I'm honest, and slowly going back to go forward if that makes sense. I hadn't ever looked into your links before but I see you're an FBIPP? that's pretty impressive. Any particular body you recommend as a first time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I don't know...Decades ago I read an ad that the Disney Company was looking for a staff photographer. I thought that would be a great job.I got discouraged after reading their photo education qualifications and never applied. However,I still wanted to be a Disney photog though I didn't want a full time job. One day I get a call from a woman in radio I knew from previous photo shoots.She was now doing promotions for Disney and they needed a photographer. She knew of my work because I shot for the radio station she was at previously but said she still needed me to bring in my portfolio. I did and got that first job which led to a 15 year relationship with Disney in all branches of the company in 3 different states. I was not staffed,they were a consistent client for a long time.Budget cutbacks and layoffs changed that in 2002 or so yet I've still done a few assignments when a big event heads my way. So,don't give up on your dream.You'll never know when miracles and fate will step in.Just continue to build up your skills and it won't matter if you have a string of initials after your name. I made more money on an hourly and day rate than I would have made as staff too. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Letters certainly can work with the public but I haven't found they have any bearing on getting jobs from professional clients. IME, it's all about the work, the work and marketing yourself....now a marketing degree would do you a lot of good. I totally agree with learning, if you stand still you are going backwards but you don't need letters to prove the learning. However if you feel that is a way you need, then go for it. Totally disagree about a photography degree, too many leaving college with less than basic skills...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstw Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 That's a cool story Linda. Man the things you learn about folk in a day Feel I'm a minnow on here now. Staff Photographers are in decline here, and the few I know are worried. Investigations into it all though has opened my eyes to this professional body world and it's something to strive for. Having folk tell you your images are good isn't cutting it for me. There's something wrong and I need a new direction and focus. Viewing the standard of work required has shown me the next level of where I kind of want to be and hopefully I can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Todd Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 On the first part of your story Paul, most of the papers in Scotland don't have many staffers. They are mostly freelancers doing shift work for them and can also be called at a moments notice if they are located near an incident. It's hard to break through because most of them have been working for the papers for years and will be higher up the list to be called. Best thing to do is phone the picture desks and ask if they have any spare shifts going. You have to do this virtually every morning though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
York Photographer Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Thanks for that Rob. Certainly something to work up to. I agree with you about the opening line. I was that guy if I'm honest, and slowly going back to go forward if that makes sense. I hadn't ever looked into your links before but I see you're an FBIPP? that's pretty impressive. Any particular body you recommend as a first time? Depends what type of work you want to do, The MPA is more Social Photography (Wedding/Portrait) but there are a lot of members that shoot Commercial. The BIPP is more general, There are plenty of others. There is one Society that is not particularly reputable, and hoovers up some real dross (whenever there is a story in the press about a photographer thats cocked up on a wedding, its normally one of theirs!) I had a very cushy job as an employed government photographer for 10 years, wouldn't have got in the door without Professional Membership/Letters after my name. Rob Cook FMPA FBIPP QEP (don't use the letters a great deal, but does look good on the bottom of a quote!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Baigent Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If you want to shoot news or be a staffer I would have thought that the NUJ would be a better start point than the BIPPhttp://www.nuj.org.uk/tags/photographers/ but I could easily be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Baigent Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My experience, albeit a long time ago, of the BIPP was that it was a club and you had to play the game with the right people for it to be worthwhile. The qualifications process was a joke with some Fellows work being more like camera club images than pro images. Perhaps things have improved since I last looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSnapper Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 been doing news for 30 years...not one of the other photograhers i've worked with and for have had any letters after our names km Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think the best photography qualification these days you would be as solicitor/attorney (or paralegal), But then my view may be coloured as I am in the middle of aggravated infringement dispute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
York Photographer Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Some of the other benefits from being in an organisation are the Networking, Legal Advice, Discounted Pro Insurance, being able to ask "how much do you charge for...." etc etc. I've picked up some cracking jobs from their websites over the years (although, that doesn't happen much nowadays, as everyone books local through Google), and its how I first heard about Alamy. I didn't know anyone in the industry when I started out, so it was really helpful too build up a network (in which we still pass jobs around). I've met some great friends, in the twenty years I've been in both the MPA and BIPP. A few letters after your name doesn't guarantee success, but I probably would have had to have "gotten a proper job" had I not joined up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Baigent Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You make some good points Mr York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstw Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 On the first part of your story Paul, most of the papers in Scotland don't have many staffers. They are mostly freelancers doing shift work for them and can also be called at a moments notice if they are located near an incident. It's hard to break through because most of them have been working for the papers for years and will be higher up the list to be called. Best thing to do is phone the picture desks and ask if they have any spare shifts going. You have to do this virtually every morning though. I didn't know you could do that, however, the people I'm with just now offer that. I just call up the day before and get a run down of everything that is on the next day. They are signed up to some PA thing I've yet to get my head around. If you want to shoot news or be a staffer I would have thought that the NUJ would be a better start point than the BIPP http://www.nuj.org.uk/tags/photographers/ but I could easily be wrong I am already a member of the BAJ. I know, how did I get into that? They seemed to be quite happy with my work so took me on. It's helped a few times with various questions out in the field with folk moaning about their pics being taken in public during the scottish referendum carry on. BAJ were quite good at letting them know the rules. Some of the other benefits from being in an organisation are the Networking, Legal Advice, Discounted Pro Insurance, being able to ask "how much do you charge for...." etc etc. I've picked up some cracking jobs from their websites over the years (although, that doesn't happen much nowadays, as everyone books local through Google), and its how I first heard about Alamy. I didn't know anyone in the industry when I started out, so it was really helpful too build up a network (in which we still pass jobs around). I've met some great friends, in the twenty years I've been in both the MPA and BIPP. A few letters after your name doesn't guarantee success, but I probably would have had to have "gotten a proper job" had I not joined up. Letters after my name don't concern me that much, I have a few computing ones. It's like you say, the networking, and breaking into new ground. You know constantly pushing your boundaries and feeding off new people. I dont know anyone in the industry, never met anyone in person and always worked on my own initiative. It has it's pitfalls as you've got no one to tell you when it's going wrong. Peer recognition or critique can set you off in the right direction sometimes and I think it's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Brook Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Spiers Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Paul, I would ignore all of these qualifications. I studied for a HNC at college for 2 years which entitles me to bypass the lower levels of some of these associations and get a higher level of membership. I have never bothered as I don't see that it worth it. Noone has every asked me if I am qualified. If you want to be a full-time news photographers, approach the paper both locally and nationally and ask them. As many have said, there are few staffer jobs available. Put together a portfolio and introduce yourself. Ask if they have any shifts available. Ask if they take work on spec. Tell them where you live / work and the areas / times you can cover. Working shifts for a newspaper is not much fun either. I have done a couple of shifts for national newspapers; 2 were spent all day waiting for celebs to arrive (and they didn't) and the other one was covering the Eastenders cast arriving prior to an awards ceremony (which was fun). Shifts for local papers are hard work. Lots of grip and grins, covering several sports matches in a day and rushing from a to b. For not a lot of money. Stick to freelance and find a way of making it pay !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Spiers Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Actually Paul you have the EMA in Glasgow so you may have the chance to find out what that is like. This time last year I could be found standing freezing on a ladder outside a hotel here waiting for celebrities I'd never heard of and being accused of being a ratbag by screaming fans who will probably go on to download my images for their walls. I did sell a couple of the Backstreet Boys but it is an experience I vowed never to repeat. One of the shifts I mention was waiting all day for Cheryl Cole outside of the Dorchester Hotel. It rained and snowed and god was it boring. Never again. She never came out (infact I don't think she was inside). But the money was reasonable and I never took a single frame (apart from one to setup the camera). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Todd Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Actually Paul you have the EMA in Glasgow so you may have the chance to find out what that is like. This time last year I could be found standing freezing on a ladder outside a hotel here waiting for celebrities I'd never heard of and being accused of being a ratbag by screaming fans who will probably go on to download my images for their walls. I did sell a couple of the Backstreet Boys but it is an experience I vowed never to repeat. One of the shifts I mention was waiting all day for Cheryl Cole outside of the Dorchester Hotel. It rained and snowed and god was it boring. Never again. She never came out (infact I don't think she was inside). But the money was reasonable and I never took a single frame (apart from one to setup the camera). +1. Paid to sit outside SuBo's house all day when I knew after an hour or so that she was out. There was always the chance she would return so I sat it out. I managed to wangle my way into a neighbour's house to watch out the window though so I was nice and warm The other Sun togs must have been busy that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Spiers Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Actually Paul you have the EMA in Glasgow so you may have the chance to find out what that is like. This time last year I could be found standing freezing on a ladder outside a hotel here waiting for celebrities I'd never heard of and being accused of being a ratbag by screaming fans who will probably go on to download my images for their walls. I did sell a couple of the Backstreet Boys but it is an experience I vowed never to repeat. One of the shifts I mention was waiting all day for Cheryl Cole outside of the Dorchester Hotel. It rained and snowed and god was it boring. Never again. She never came out (infact I don't think she was inside). But the money was reasonable and I never took a single frame (apart from one to setup the camera). +1. Paid to sit outside SuBo's house all day when I knew after an hour or so that she was out. There was always the chance she would return so I sat it out. I managed to wangle my way into a neighbour's house to watch out the window though so I was nice and warm The other Sun togs must have been busy that day. Lucky you. The other job I had was for a Holby City actress that had given birth and I was asked to wait outside the private hospital in London for her. This was the day after the birth. However, the baby was delivered via caesarean section and there was no way she was coming out that day. The photos of her were taken 3 days later. I knew that I wasn't going to get the photo but took the money anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brooks Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 If a photographers group includes members over thirty years old, they are probably fighting the industry change created by outsiders like you. Create a portfolio of great news pictures, and get beat up or arrested at least once, while doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstw Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Funny stories but i bet they weren't funny at the time. I think I might just wing it for a while and learn on the fly as I go. The method I've used until now. I really was looking for a springboard to create better stock too as well as more appealing news images. I'm a huge fan of Jeff J Mitchell who shoots for Getty. The guy just seems to have a natural knack for it. I didn't even notice that he's been at most of the same stuff as me but his pics just sing. Years of experience doing it everyday I guess. I'll see how I feel after the new year. It's an awful expense to go through it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Just be very analytical about your own work, note other people's stuff that inspires you and apply similar analytical thought - why does it inspie? Understand the process, the approach and apply your version to the subjects that motivate you, find your own way. Don't copy what they do - you are the first Paul ..., not the next David Bailey, Jeff J Mitchell or whoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isphoto Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I've always been sceptical of the various associations that exist to provide letters after your name, I get that for some it is the personal challenge iof moving up the academic scale. However, I have never ever been asked by prospective clients, publishers if I have a degree, letters after my name or what kit I shoot on (they assume correctly I have the standard of gear). The ONLY thing that matters to the editor/client is 1) do your provide commercially usable images 2) do you deliver on time 3) can you do it everytime. On the occasions that I have given talks, for the fun of it I have used "NQAY" after my name, when asked what it means I simply reply "no qualifications as yet", gets a smile everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustydingo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I've always been sceptical of the various associations that exist to provide letters after your name, I get that for some it is the personal challenge iof moving up the academic scale. However, I have never ever been asked by prospective clients, publishers if I have a degree, letters after my name or what kit I shoot on (they assume correctly I have the standard of gear). The ONLY thing that matters to the editor/client is 1) do your provide commercially usable images 2) do you deliver on time 3) can you do it everytime. On the occasions that I have given talks, for the fun of it I have used "NQAY" after my name, when asked what it means I simply reply "no qualifications as yet", gets a smile everytime. I lean toward NQN . . . No Qualifications Needed. dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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