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A few months ago, I got a little chiding from whoever polices Alamy images about the number of people in a few images. The note said they corrected the number, so I don't really know where I went wrong- if I was way off base or there was a little speck of a person that changed the number from 3 to 4 or what. 

 

I've struggled with how best to handle the number of people pulldown especially since getting the email. My workflow has been to automatically mark all my images as  including 1 person unreleased and including unreleased property. After I apply to all images, I go and manually correct as needed. But the preview isn't large enough to do a great job at telling how many people are in a photo. My logic behind this is better safe than sorry. I figured that not having a release for one person is the same legally speaking as 2,3, or 4.

 

 

How do other Alamy contributors manage workflow regarding number of people where it's tricky? You know, street scenes without many people, or long exposures where people are partially ghosted, shallow depth of focus with unknown objects in the background, or other such tricky circumstances. I've been trying to think of a more efficient way like adding a keyword like people:1, people:2 etc while I'm viewing at full size in Lightroom.

 

 

 

Any advice?

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Cant say this has been a problem for me. I have thousands of shots with people in, most are obvious however if I am in doubt I generally have the shot open in photoshop to do a quick body count. Haven’t yet had any query from the powers that be!

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Same here, if the preview is to small, then I have a look at the image in Lightroom. I count only recognizable persons as people (not ghosted ones), I count even body parts as one person. I don't think that the accuracy of the count is important only "to be on the safe side", but also for customer searching after images with a certain number of people in them. In my workflow I usually set (during batch keywording) the number to 0 and change it as needed for the few images with people in them (I don't have a lot of images with people in them).

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A bit like Vlad, I have LR running while I am key wording  and just check where I'm not sure. I also declare one person even if its a dodgy reflection of myself in a window, or car bonnet etc. Also like Vlad I count parts of people as one.

 

I haven't had any queries from Alamy in the 6 or 7 years I have been contributing.

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I have never had a search with a specific number of people. The only search I have had is WOP (Without People).

 

I try and be as accurate as possible but if in doubt, I always go for the max.

 

Lazy I know but easier that way.

 

Andrew

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I too don't see an option other than to have LR open when keywording.  Likewise,  I always try to be as accurate as possible and count 'parts' of people as well - eg where most of the person is hidden but hand/foot can be seen.  

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I think from  Alamy's point of view there are two issues here which obviously have a big overlap:

 

1. If you are hoping the image may be used for commercial purposes, as opposed to editorial purposes, and particularly if you have set the licence to RF, then the number of people is important because of potential legal problems arising from people in the photo who have not given consent to their image being used in such a way. In these images the total number of people must be accurate, and for each person, identifiable or not, there should be a model release signed (definitely if RF, and ideally if RM). This is true even for parts of a person, even if the person is not identifiable, even if they are a smudge in the distance, even if only their finger is in the photo, and even if they are seen in a reflection.

 

2. Even if you are only expecting the image to be used as editorial, many purchasers of editorial images are still looking for a certain type of image and often want one with a specific number of people in it, so they will not be happy if they do a search for example for "punting Cambridge" and specify 2 people in the image, and come up with images with other than 2 people visible. This doesn't help Alamy or us.

 

many of my images have people in them, but there are still occasional situations where I am unsure as to the correct way to decide the number of people in certain rare situations, for example in my image B7JE7T -

 

In this image of mine of a girl using a TV remote control there are photos in frames of other identifiable people on the window sill in the background...How should that be annotated? (I have said there is one person)

 

Also what about people's shadows being in the photo but no part of the person themselves is visible - I would tend not to count them as a person but is that right?

 

I, like many above always have either Lightroom or PS open and as I am keywording, if I am unsure, I open the image to look more closely.

 

Hope that helps

 

Kumar Sriskandan

Edited by Doc
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Thanks for all the replies and advice! At the moment, I'm thinking of trying to change my workflow to add custom keywords in LR 0:people 1:people etc.  so I can zoom in and see better. My goal is to spend more time photographing and less time in front of the computer (while being accurate and honest keywording.) It would be even cooler if Alamy could just give us a keyword that wold carry over to Manage Images ;-)

 

Seems like the number of people setting is trying to do two different things. The first is legal: is everybody in my photo released? The second thing is letting the buyer search for how many people make up the photo. For part two, the needs of the photo buyer as to how many people are in the photo is totally different than the legal definition. That's to say if you are looking for a photo of "best mates" you might think of a couple of kids, one with his arm around his buddies shoulder. But it wouldn't matter aesthetically if there were out of focus people in the distant background just that the primary subject is the two boys. Not sure of any good or easy way to bring these two things together.

 

In any case, thanks again for sharing your techniques!

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I have two monitors*, Manage Images on my main and FastStone Viewer for viewing the files on the other.  With FastStone you just need to press the left button to view at full size then you can move the mouse to zoom around the image.  Just another click will take you to the next image.  I find it quicker and easier than using Photoshop for this (I don't have Lightroom).

 

* Actually, I have three monitors, a third using Maxivista with another computer.  When I'm keywording I have a 'sticky notes' type program open on this for copying and pasting keywords that I might use again later.

 

Fastone - http://www.faststone.org/

Maxivista - http://www.maxivista.com/

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@Robert Mowat Hi there, An interesting problem for you all!

 

1. How do I obtain model releases for athletes competing in sporting events in public stadiums?

2. How do I obtain model releases for anything up to 50,000 people at say a football match on the off chance that they may appear in an image?

2. How do I obtain model releases for members of a say a lifeboat crew at sea going on a rescue mission?

 

Alamy seems to be demanding that model releases are obtained in all of the above circumstances!

 

I have already deleted 4 images that were taken at an international sporting event held on the Isle of Wight rather than have my account deleted by Alamy!

 

Comments please!

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Hi Robert,

 

If I understand your question correctly, you don't get releases. You just need to sell as Rights Managed (you can't sell RF) and note how many people are in each photo. And where Alamy asks do you have a release and you answer no. As I understand it, selling RM with unreleased people or property just limits how a photo can be used. For example your lifeboat photos with unreleased people and property would be completely appropriate to license to an editorial magazine specializing in shipping to illustrate a story. That same photo shouldn't be used for a purely commercial purpose, say a Coca Cola advert campaign- what beverage would you bring if you were stranded on a desert isle. Did that answer your question?

 

@Robert Mowat Hi there, An interesting problem for you all!

 

1. How do I obtain model releases for athletes competing in sporting events in public stadiums?

2. How do I obtain model releases for anything up to 50,000 people at say a football match on the off chance that they may appear in an image?

2. How do I obtain model releases for members of a say a lifeboat crew at sea going on a rescue mission?

 

Alamy seems to be demanding that model releases are obtained in all of the above circumstances!

 

I have already deleted 4 images that were taken at an international sporting event held on the Isle of Wight rather than have my account deleted by Alamy!

 

Comments please!

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  • 2 months later...

@Robert Mowat Hi there, An interesting problem for you all!

 

1. How do I obtain model releases for athletes competing in sporting events in public stadiums?

2. How do I obtain model releases for anything up to 50,000 people at say a football match on the off chance that they may appear in an image?

2. How do I obtain model releases for members of a say a lifeboat crew at sea going on a rescue mission?

 

Alamy seems to be demanding that model releases are obtained in all of the above circumstances!

 

I have already deleted 4 images that were taken at an international sporting event held on the Isle of Wight rather than have my account deleted by Alamy!

 

Comments please!

You prepare and organise a shooting with the people - perhaps the model releases are signed beforehand or at least right after, if the people would like to see the images prior to signing the release.

Alternatively you just sell as RM and tick the number of people.

 

As to the main question in this thread, I may view the image at 100% and count. If not, and the image could hide partly hidden people or very small people, I tick 4 or more. I, of course, always include body parts, shadows, etc. as persons - according to the terms of Alamy.

Edited by Niels Quist
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It's easy to get tied up in knots about all this... when the best approach is the simplest. Number of people (or parts of people): review original pic, at 100%, if necessary, and count 'em...

 

No point in fretting about the impossibility of getting releases for, say, everyone in a football crowd. Just tick 'no model release' and sell RM...

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A few months ago, I got a little chiding from whoever polices Alamy images about the number of people in a few images. The note said they corrected the number, so I don't really know where I went wrong- if I was way off base or there was a little speck of a person that changed the number from 3 to 4 or what. 

 

I've struggled with how best to handle the number of people pulldown especially since getting the email. My workflow has been to automatically mark all my images as  including 1 person unreleased and including unreleased property. After I apply to all images, I go and manually correct as needed. But the preview isn't large enough to do a great job at telling how many people are in a photo. My logic behind this is better safe than sorry. I figured that not having a release for one person is the same legally speaking as 2,3, or 4.

 

 

How do other Alamy contributors manage workflow regarding number of people where it's tricky? You know, street scenes without many people, or long exposures where people are partially ghosted, shallow depth of focus with unknown objects in the background, or other such tricky circumstances. I've been trying to think of a more efficient way like adding a keyword like people:1, people:2 etc while I'm viewing at full size in Lightroom.

 

 

 

Any advice?

 

Michael, you should be checking the number of people at 100% in Photoshop, not in the Alamy view.

 

Good luck.

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If I can't figure out the number of people, miscellaneous body parts, fuzzy reflections, etc., even at 100%, I just click "more than four people." Recognizable people are what really counts IMO. It seems doubtful that someone will be able to recognize his or her elbow in a picture. But almost all of my sales are editorial, so it's not a big deal. I also don't bother with model releases for the same reason.

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 Likewise,  I always try to be as accurate as possible and count 'parts' of people as well - eg where most of the person is hidden but hand/foot can be seen.  

I do that, but I had Alamy change at least one pic with blurry people to fewer than I had indicated, and were in the photo, though fairly indistinct (enough to see they were people, not enough that they were recognisable).

 

I think there should be some distinction between, "there are n small and very blurry 'pixel groups' in the background which are probably people, and I'd better cover myself by saying they're there and I don't have releases" and the number of people which is indicated to buyers, who if they select a number of people they want in an image presumably actually want to be able to see the people distinctly.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is a new one on me. Never had an issue with the quantity of people in an image. If there are people and no release then the image is RM. I would then tend to err on the consevative side. I always have LR4 open when I am keywording and check people and any stray arms and legs and count the lot.

 

dov

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With football the answer is pretty simple - you cannot even take the photo and sell it legally - as far as I understand,

 

I've been a season ticket holder for many years at my club - the last 8 in the Premier League. I asked them about taking some shots but the answers was a firm no - the Premier League has the rights inside the ground - so unless you're an official photographer with press and the rest passes for that game, you cannot take the shots. Most ground post rules in the stadium telling you - but since pocket cameras and phones do this now they relax a little just to pro cameras. I certainly have been told off for using my camera in my ground by stewards - as it's clearly "pro spec".

 

I image other sports are similar.

 

 

Steve (no longer in the Premier League, but we will be back soon)

 

 

 

@Robert Mowat Hi there, An interesting problem for you all!

 

1. How do I obtain model releases for athletes competing in sporting events in public stadiums?

2. How do I obtain model releases for anything up to 50,000 people at say a football match on the off chance that they may appear in an image?

2. How do I obtain model releases for members of a say a lifeboat crew at sea going on a rescue mission?

 

Alamy seems to be demanding that model releases are obtained in all of the above circumstances!

 

I have already deleted 4 images that were taken at an international sporting event held on the Isle of Wight rather than have my account deleted by Alamy!

 

Comments please!

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Mile

 

Just looked at your images - be thankful Alamy are being lax on their "similars" rule as time past you'd have fallen foul of too many similar shots.  Just something to watch for.

 

Steve

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@Robert Mowat Hi there, An interesting problem for you all!

 

1. How do I obtain model releases for athletes competing in sporting events in public stadiums?

2. How do I obtain model releases for anything up to 50,000 people at say a football match on the off chance that they may appear in an image?

2. How do I obtain model releases for members of a say a lifeboat crew at sea going on a rescue mission?

 

Alamy seems to be demanding that model releases are obtained in all of the above circumstances!

 

I have already deleted 4 images that were taken at an international sporting event held on the Isle of Wight rather than have my account deleted by Alamy!

 

Comments please!

You cannot! You mark them as containing peeps and as un-released. That is of course your access allows you to take photos. If not, then don't upload. (See other comments in thread regarding football).

 

I have many photos on alamy with 1000's in, all with approved access, all without releases. Many have sold...

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