Sony RX10 Pt. 2: Problems

[Linda]

Okay, folks -- reach down deep in that pocket and pull out all those credit cards and cash and any spare change you might have, here it is: 

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FRDV06I

A photo friend of mine bought this camera.He lives out here and we've often shot the same 'hot spots' in town thru the years.I've seen shots from every major camera he's owned. He has a great job and can afford the best and he really is an excellent photog and has a lot on sale w/Getty.

Unfortunately for black and white and color with his Sony A7R,I am not impressed by any photos I've seen by him or others so far. The best one was when he photographed a family member using his Canon flash in bounce mode.

The skin times don't look good.A city scene...the snow looked very magenta,the contrast was too much. The black and white looked muddy.Color looked flat and drab. I really wanted to love this camera and that was on my 'next up' list but now I've dropped it from the list. He's been using it with good fast primes one being the 35mm and another 1.4 Zeiss I think.   I saw another review on Flickr tonight a really good one where he compared it to the D800e he has and other cameras. He decided he'd send the Sony back.He too was disappointed.  So am I!  L

[TABan]

$2,000, John!  Sony is the devil.  I really just shot for stock.  I think an FF camera is overkill for stock.

 

Yep. These days they're probably overkill for 90% of photography.

[Bryan]

 

$2,000, John!  Sony is the devil.  I really just shot for stock.  I think an FF camera is overkill for stock.

Yep. These days they're probably overkill for 90% of photography.

 

 

Indeed, I only hope that Sony doesn't abandon the smaller format.  I'm waiting to see a NEX with the new 20 plus Megapixel sensor and good high ISO performance. It's about time the 7 had a major update.

[John Mitchell]

 

 

$2,000, John!  Sony is the devil.  I really just shot for stock.  I think an FF camera is overkill for stock.

Yep. These days they're probably overkill for 90% of photography.

 

 

Indeed, I only hope that Sony doesn't abandon the smaller format.  I'm waiting to see a NEX with the new 20 plus Megapixel sensor and good high ISO performance. It's about time the 7 had a major update.

 

Most recent rumour is that the NEX name will be dropped in favour of a5000, a7000, etc. cameras with the a3000's "form factor" (Oh dear, does that mean "shape"?). But who knows? Sony works in mysterious ways and loves confusing its customers.

[David Kilpatrick]

Don't buy the A7R unless you need it for specific uses. It has problems I intend to write about, not yet, as I'm still working with and on it. It is almost impossible to get a sharp picture at shutter speeds between 1/30th and 1/100th, regardless of whether you can manage to fit a stabilised lens or not. I believe that the issue with shutter vibration/jolt on the A7R, along with the extreme delay, will rise up to become its equivalent of the D600 dust on sensor issue (and that's from me, owning one, in the UK where you can't just send a camera back because you don't like it, unless you do so two minutes after opening the package). The shutter cycle takes an incredible 375 milliseconds, with 125ms (1/8th of a second) between pressing the shutter and getting your shot - which most of the time you get twice as the shutter jolts the lightweight, solid metal body in a big way. The remaining 250ms (1/4) is a succession of loud noises as the shutter recharges and opens to allow live view.

[Gervais Montacute]

 

 

L

 

We had snow last week and sub zero temps and high winds.Oh,it's miserable in Chicago.

I'm in a well maintained condo with 10 year old thick windows and I can still feel a major draft.No..Wind chill!

 

L

Very mild here this winter Linda. So far averaging at around 12 degrees and a light winds from the south blowing up from Spain.

 

Things can change though.

[Ed Rooney]

Wow, David -- Sony is all over the map with their products.  So far I'm happy with my new RX10, but frankly the cold and the dark and the glare of the winter light has me more indoors than out. I'm gonna make me a list of some indoor places I want to shoot in NYC, like the Subway and some shopping malls. 

 

Linda, get yourself to Hawaii!  My windows were probably installed in about 1896. I'm just not copping with winter this year.

[Bryan]

Don't buy the A7R unless you need it for specific uses. It has problems I intend to write about, not yet, as I'm still working with and on it. It is almost impossible to get a sharp picture at shutter speeds between 1/30th and 1/100th, regardless of whether you can manage to fit a stabilised lens or not. I believe that the issue with shutter vibration/jolt on the A7R, along with the extreme delay, will rise up to become its equivalent of the D600 dust on sensor issue (and that's from me, owning one, in the UK where you can't just send a camera back because you don't like it, unless you do so two minutes after opening the package). The shutter cycle takes an incredible 375 milliseconds, with 125ms (1/8th of a second) between pressing the shutter and getting your shot - which most of the time you get twice as the shutter jolts the lightweight, solid metal body in a big way. The remaining 250ms (1/4) is a succession of loud noises as the shutter recharges and opens to allow live view.

 

Thanks David, one less purchasing decision to worry about...

[John Mitchell]

 

Don't buy the A7R unless you need it for specific uses. It has problems I intend to write about, not yet, as I'm still working with and on it. It is almost impossible to get a sharp picture at shutter speeds between 1/30th and 1/100th, regardless of whether you can manage to fit a stabilised lens or not. I believe that the issue with shutter vibration/jolt on the A7R, along with the extreme delay, will rise up to become its equivalent of the D600 dust on sensor issue (and that's from me, owning one, in the UK where you can't just send a camera back because you don't like it, unless you do so two minutes after opening the package). The shutter cycle takes an incredible 375 milliseconds, with 125ms (1/8th of a second) between pressing the shutter and getting your shot - which most of the time you get twice as the shutter jolts the lightweight, solid metal body in a big way. The remaining 250ms (1/4) is a succession of loud noises as the shutter recharges and opens to allow live view.

 

Thanks David, one less purchasing decision to worry about...

 

Yes, phew! That's a relief! It's called churn 'em out as fast as we can, before the other guys beat us to it. I'm amazed that anything works properly these days.

[Linda]

Sony RX10 review by Thom Hogan is posted.

 

http://www.gearophile.com/cameras/camera-reviews/sony-rx10-review.html

 

 

Anyone have this camera and loving it? Compare it to RX100M2?

 

L

[Duncan_Andison]

Don't buy the A7R unless you need it for specific uses. It has problems I intend to write about, not yet, as I'm still working with and on it. It is almost impossible to get a sharp picture at shutter speeds between 1/30th and 1/100th, regardless of whether you can manage to fit a stabilised lens or not. I believe that the issue with shutter vibration/jolt on the A7R, along with the extreme delay, will rise up to become its equivalent of the D600 dust on sensor issue (and that's from me, owning one, in the UK where you can't just send a camera back because you don't like it, unless you do so two minutes after opening the package). The shutter cycle takes an incredible 375 milliseconds, with 125ms (1/8th of a second) between pressing the shutter and getting your shot - which most of the time you get twice as the shutter jolts the lightweight, solid metal body in a big way. The remaining 250ms (1/4) is a succession of loud noises as the shutter recharges and opens to allow live view.

 

That might explain why we were seeing a number of OOF shots from seasoned pros reviewing the camera early on. Might be just the copy you've received though?!? Could be worth going for a replacement!

[David Kilpatrick]

No, the problem is widely reported. The shots are not out of focus (the focus on the A7R can be 100% accurate especially with manual focus lens - main problem with AF lenses is that in manual mode, the focus mechanisms don't hold firm and the A7R demonstrates this - Leica and old MF lenses in contrast once focused don't shift). The shutter jolt would be expected to cause problems with non-stabilised lenses, what's annoying is that the A7R even in crop mode disables stabilisation in many perfect useful lenses like the 18-55mm and 55-210mm, and from what I can tell, may be controlling OSS/IS in third party lenses incorrectly, and/or causing legitimate OSS to react at the wrong time to the shock.

 

The answer is simple enough, don't hand-hold shots around 1/60th. But the shutter sound causes more problems really. Ever since the days of the KM Dimage A2 I've been able to shoot interiors without being noticed, but this one will bring officials running to investigate.

[Duncan_Andison]

No, the problem is widely reported. The shots are not out of focus (the focus on the A7R can be 100% accurate especially with manual focus lens - main problem with AF lenses is that in manual mode, the focus mechanisms don't hold firm and the A7R demonstrates this - Leica and old MF lenses in contrast once focused don't shift). The shutter jolt would be expected to cause problems with non-stabilised lenses, what's annoying is that the A7R even in crop mode disables stabilisation in many perfect useful lenses like the 18-55mm and 55-210mm, and from what I can tell, may be controlling OSS/IS in third party lenses incorrectly, and/or causing legitimate OSS to react at the wrong time to the shock.

 

The answer is simple enough, don't hand-hold shots around 1/60th. But the shutter sound causes more problems really. Ever since the days of the KM Dimage A2 I've been able to shoot interiors without being noticed, but this one will bring officials running to investigate.

 

Interesting..... I guess it's not a stealth machine then. So even when using AF though, the vibration from the shutter jolt is causing the image to be blurred? 

 

What's the EVF like compared to the Nex 6/7? 

[Ed Rooney]

Sony RX10 review by Thom Hogan is posted.

 

http://www.gearophile.com/cameras/camera-reviews/sony-rx10-review.html

 

 

Anyone have this camera and loving it? Compare it to RX100M2?

 

L

 

Thanks for that, Linda. Hogan's negatives on the RX10 are much the same as David's . . . and neither of them found any deal beakers.  I haven't either. But I see something odd here: "Some consumer-like features are also in the camera, as well, such as a sweep panorama mode, Scene modes (including Sony's useful Hand-held Twilight mode), and the requisite all-Auto mode."  I have not found the Twilight mode on the selection wheel or in the menus. I'm beginning to think I am simply unable to read or relate to these menus. This is very disturbing, considering that I worked for a decade in my retirement from photography as a magazine copy editor. 

[Bryan]

 

 

 

Indeed, I only hope that Sony doesn't abandon the smaller format. I'm waiting to see a NEX with the new 20 plus Megapixel sensor and good high ISO performance. It's about time the 7 had a major update.

Most recent rumour is that the NEX name will be dropped in favour of a5000, a7000, etc. cameras with the a3000's "form factor" (Oh dear, does that mean "shape"?). But who knows? Sony works in mysterious ways and loves confusing its customers.

 

Just googled NEX rumours to see that new NEX 7 with new 20 MP sensor, better EVF, autofocus, longer battery life, WIFI etc expected early next year. Interesting, If it's true!

[Linda]

 

Sony RX10 review by Thom Hogan is posted.

 

http://www.gearophile.com/cameras/camera-reviews/sony-rx10-review.html

 

 

Anyone have this camera and loving it? Compare it to RX100M2?

 

L

 

Thanks for that, Linda. Hogan's negatives on the RX10 are much the same as David's . . . and neither of them found any deal beakers.  I haven't either. But I see something odd here: "Some consumer-like features are also in the camera, as well, such as a sweep panorama mode, Scene modes (including Sony's useful Hand-held Twilight mode), and the requisite all-Auto mode."  I have not found the Twilight mode on the selection wheel or in the menus. I'm beginning to think I am simply unable to read or relate to these menus. This is very disturbing, considering that I worked for a decade in my retirement from photography as a magazine copy editor. 

 

I don't have this camera yet but I know some of the cameras I've owned lately that certain features are not visible in certain modes. So maybe try manual or other modes that you don't normally use and see if you notice things you did not see before.

L

[David Kilpatrick]

Update on A7R. I have had my doubts about whether the shake issues reported are down to poor compatibility with lenses, so I ran a stack of tests using a tripod and hand-held with the 10-18mm OSS lens (the only lens I have which is known to be properly compatible with the A7R) and also using an 85mm CZ Tele-Tessar M lens.

 

Results - first of all, the A7R is awesome. I compared with the 20 megapixel RX10 and A3000, both were also capable of quite remarkable resolution when used on a tripod with OSS turned off. Although the A7R is only 15 megapixels over the APS-C central area, there's a big difference in the lack of AA filter and the raw file processing - it just has a much sharper image, with more microcontrast detail, and you can blow the A7R image up. Second, there is clearly a conflict between some lenses and the A7R, including my 18-200mm Tamron VC DiIII and my Sigma 70-300mm OS. They seem to be well stabilised when viewing but do create double images around the sort of 1/50-1/125 times reported. The 10-18mm does not and I find that I can hand-hold 1/8th, 1/6th, etc even at 18mm and the OSS yields extreme detail, no shake.

 

But, I can't hand-hold manual or non-OSS lenses easily without shake so it's obvious the relatively small body and heavy shutter action do have an effect. This is removed 100% on a tripod. I now think that fitting the base grip (rather defeats the size advantage) may reduce shake. I may try something like an L-bracket or a pistol grip. Definitely, a tripod makes such a great difference at 36 megapixels.

[David Kilpatrick]

Jeff - the RX10 and RX100 MkII are plenty sharp enough not to require downsizing, but in fact 18" is about what size a print from 20 megapixels should be at 300dpi, so what's odd about that?

 

Linda - you select the SCENE mode on the mode dial first, and then use the rear screen menus, which will reveal all the different settings like Sunset, Night Portrait, Hand-Held Twilight, and so on. It remembers whatever one you set, so if you often use a night/twilight mode, you just have to turn the mode dial to Scene to get it.

[Ed Rooney]

Yikes, David -- do they give you a special manual that explains the unexplained stuff? I don't know how the common man would sort that out from the manual. I know what CIA and FBI mean but SCE? (CIA is Culinary Institute of America.)  Do I dare say it; do I dare even think it? This stuff is fun!  Click click click it goes and then we have a picture in low light.  What the. . . .  

[John Mitchell]

 

Sony RX10 review by Thom Hogan is posted.

 

http://www.gearophile.com/cameras/camera-reviews/sony-rx10-review.html

 

 

Anyone have this camera and loving it? Compare it to RX100M2?

 

L

 

Thanks for that, Linda. Hogan's negatives on the RX10 are much the same as David's . . . and neither of them found any deal beakers.  I haven't either. But I see something odd here: "Some consumer-like features are also in the camera, as well, such as a sweep panorama mode, Scene modes (including Sony's useful Hand-held Twilight mode), and the requisite all-Auto mode."  I have not found the Twilight mode on the selection wheel or in the menus. I'm beginning to think I am simply unable to read or relate to these menus. This is very disturbing, considering that I worked for a decade in my retirement from photography as a magazine copy editor. 

 

Ed, don't know if it's the same on the RX10, but with the NEX cameras, you have to go to "scene" on the shooting mode dial, enter therein and then rotate the virtual wheel until you come to the "hand-held twilight" mode. One negative with the twilight mode is that the camera defaults to the widest aperture (f/2.8 in the case of the RX10). This may not be an issue, though, with the Zeiss wunder-zoom. The camera also chooses the shutter speed and ISO.

[Linda]

I don't have the Sony RX10 yet.I'm still contemplating and waiting until I sell my Fuji X Pro1 first.

I don't know why this excellent camera has been such a hard sell on ebay and other outlets.

Longest time it's been on the market from any piece of equipment I have ever owned.

 

The economy? The camera? Too many new choices?

 

 

L

[Ed Rooney]

"Ed, don't know if it's the same on the RX10, but with the NEX cameras, you have to go to "scene" on the shooting mode dial, enter therein and then rotate the virtual wheel until you come to the "hand-held twilight" mode. One negative with the twilight mode is that the camera defaults to the widest aperture (f/2.8 in the case of the RX10). This may not be an issue, though, with the Zeiss wunder-zoom. The camera also chooses the shutter speed and ISO." -- John M

 

On the RX10 you set the dial at SCN (scene) then turn on the menus and choose the Camera Menu. Over in the No. 6 menu list you will find and select Scene Selection. There we can select any number of scenes: Anti Motion Blur, Sports Action, Macro and Hand held Twilight, the one I was looking for. Without David K's help, I don't think I'd have been able to find this. It's not in my manual. 

[Bryan]

. Without David K's help, I don't think I'd have been able to find this. It's not in my manual. 

 

 

Coming from Canon to Sony, the Sony manuals are very poor in comparison. Further, I have seen expanded explanations of a camera's features on the Canon web site, but I have not see anything similar from Sony.

 

If there is such a thing I would certainly like to know about it.

[Ed Rooney]

I thought I would add some thoughts about modern equipment manuals. 

 

Back in 1974 I was given an assignment from the New York advertising agency that handled the Nikon account. I was to interview 17 famous Nikon photographers who had had their work featured in Nikon magazine ads. The agency decided that they wanted to hire me, at least temporarily, so they could get more use out of me while they were waiting for Nikon's approval of each state of the project to move forward. So while I were waiting around (and being paid weekly) the agency gave me a few smaller jobs to do . . . and two of these jobs were writing manuals. 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-Image-Contemporary-Photographic-Photographers/dp/B000R0E7UC/ref=sr_1_36?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387119494&sr=1-36&keywords=The+Nikon+Image+Book

 

One manual was for a Nikon handheld light meter. It came to me as a 4-color printed booklet . . . in English. At least the translator in Japan thought it was in English. The title was: How to Do Usefully. 

 

Even that manual, in the state it was handed to me, was clearer than the manuals we get for digital products today. My assumption is that this new equipment is so complex a "do-usefully" manual is impossible to write. Thank heavens we have people like David and Tom Hogan to sort things out. 

[NYCat]

This book (PDF really) has been very useful for the RX100. I was just looking for it on my iPad without luck until I went to iBooks - Collections - PDFs. Computers are always hiding things from me.

 

Paulette

 

Edit…..I left out a link…Christine has it below….