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Selling for pennies


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On 21/01/2022 at 16:10, Alamy said:

Hi All,

 

The data has been pulled and looked at for the distributor in question and we can confirm they have operated within our agreement. 

 

The images were sourced from the pool of images opted into Chinese distribution and Novel Use. The usage confirmation report included a very small % of images that had opted out or had been deleted in the time between download and use, but the vast majority of images billed remain opted into both. 

 

The images selected have been used as part of a small business / personal template style application where users can quickly create small designs. The novel use pool was used for this as it covers low value / high volume style licence packages and our agreement with this distributor continues to limit them to the novel use pool, although there still may be some additional billing associated with images downloaded whilst opted in, that are now opted out.

 

These deals are done based on the fact that they are additional streams of revenue that allow our reach to grow within the market and gain ground on competitors. 

 

The average licence price we sell for remains a significant indicator as to our approach to pricing, and the fact that it has remained stable over the last 3 or 4 years at $26-$30 in a difficult market shows a level of robustness. Competition is fierce of course and last year saw record levels of contributor registrations and image uploads. The photographers who are growing revenue on Alamy and having continued success are supplying a steady stream of fresh and on-trend content and are seeing year on year growth in earnings. 

 

Future growth opportunities are on the horizon across all areas of our business and we'll share them with you at the earliest opportunity.

 

Best regards

 

James Allsworth

Head of Content


Hi All, 

 

Following on from this, we’ve been looking into the data further and can see that a small percentage of contributors’ images have been included in this deal who were IN distribution for China but opted out of novel use.

 

We apologise for this oversight as we originally aimed to set this up with the intention to include NU only and although the vast majority of images we’re in this pool, it has come to light that a handful were not.

 

Regardless of this error, we’d like to reiterate that this does not indicate a shift in strategy in the way we or our distributors licence images, and all of these sales are part of a specific project licence type with this specific distributor.

 

Best Regards, 

Corin 

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7 hours ago, Alamy said:


Hi All, 

 

Following on from this, we’ve been looking into the data further and can see that a small percentage of contributors’ images have been included in this deal who were IN distribution for China but opted out of novel use.

 

We apologise for this oversight as we originally aimed to set this up with the intention to include NU only and although the vast majority of images we’re in this pool, it has come to light that a handful were not.

 

Regardless of this error, we’d like to reiterate that this does not indicate a shift in strategy in the way we or our distributors licence images, and all of these sales are part of a specific project licence type with this specific distributor.

 

Best Regards, 

Corin 

 

Can we be assured that any such deal in future will not include images or contributors that are not in the novel use scheme.

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43 minutes ago, BobD said:

 

Can we be assured that any such deal in future will not include images or contributors that are not in the novel use scheme.

I asked this very question to Alamy support. I don't want to see any more of these sales given I've been opted out from NU for many, many years.

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1 hour ago, Duncan_Andison said:

I asked this very question to Alamy support. I don't want to see any more of these sales given I've been opted out from NU for many, many years.

Ok - we're opted out of NU, but since when?

And what about distribution?

Ok - we're opted out of distribution, but since when?

And what about the "deal" - was it before or after we're opted out?

🙄🙄🙄

 

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9 hours ago, Alamy said:


Hi All, 

 

Following on from this, we’ve been looking into the data further and can see that a small percentage of contributors’ images have been included in this deal who were IN distribution for China but opted out of novel use.

 

We apologise for this oversight as we originally aimed to set this up with the intention to include NU only and although the vast majority of images we’re in this pool, it has come to light that a handful were not.

 

Regardless of this error, we’d like to reiterate that this does not indicate a shift in strategy in the way we or our distributors licence images, and all of these sales are part of a specific project licence type with this specific distributor.

 

Best Regards, 

Corin 

 

 

Corin,

 

Thanks, But that doesn't explain why people who were opted out from Distribution in China under the current agreement got items licenced. 

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11 hours ago, Duncan_Andison said:

I've been opted out since April 2013... most of the images were uploaded after that point. I guess they'll sort it, just a little worrying that the images accidentally ended up in the group in the first place. 

 

What you don't know is wether this is because of a bug, human error or another reason. Whatever, it sounds sloppy to me and creates more agro.

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22 hours ago, Alamy said:


Hi All, 

 

Following on from this, we’ve been looking into the data further and can see that a small percentage of contributors’ images have been included in this deal who were IN distribution for China but opted out of novel use.

 

We apologise for this oversight as we originally aimed to set this up with the intention to include NU only and although the vast majority of images we’re in this pool, it has come to light that a handful were not.

 

Regardless of this error, we’d like to reiterate that this does not indicate a shift in strategy in the way we or our distributors licence images, and all of these sales are part of a specific project licence type with this specific distributor.

 

Best Regards, 

Corin 

 

Thank you Corin, but this still leaves questions. 

What is being done by Alamy/ your Chinese distributor to avoid the same oversight from happening in the future?

Why wasn't/isn't NU content marked separate from the rest of Alamy/ Distributor content?

Currently, if no changes are made, the same scenario may repeat itself in the future. 


Seems that if a contributor is opted IN distribution, their content is somehow connected to Novel Use. What exactly is this connection? 

 

Further action by Alamy is really needed to fix things, and to rebuild trust among your contributors. Also motivation to upload new work is close to zero (near 0,04 maybe).

 

I would like to see Alamy to offer a chance to opt out Distribution for China right now. For me at least this would be important. 

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2 hours ago, Taina said:

 

Thank you Corin, but this still leaves questions. 

What is being done by Alamy/ your Chinese distributor to avoid the same oversight from happening in the future?

Why wasn't/isn't NU content marked separate from the rest of Alamy/ Distributor content?

Currently, if no changes are made, the same scenario may repeat itself in the future. 


Seems that if a contributor is opted IN distribution, their content is somehow connected to Novel Use. What exactly is this connection? 

 

Further action by Alamy is really needed to fix things, and to rebuild trust among your contributors. Also motivation to upload new work is close to zero (near 0,04 maybe).

 

I would like to see Alamy to offer a chance to opt out Distribution for China right now. For me at least this would be important. 

 

Exactly. I asked for confirmation that my images would no longer be included in this or other hybrid Distribution / Novel use schemes. I received a response saying, "We can confirm that your images aren’t in the novel use scheme.". 

 

Not really what I was looking for. A) I was opted out of the NU scheme since 2013 but that didn't stop them from including them. b) Doesn't confirm that these images have been removed and will not be included in similar Distribution / NU schemes.

 

For me, this leaves concerns over the way they manage their data.... i.e. Image Library Metadata. Surely there should be safeguards in place to prevent this otherwise.... if not, what other safeguards are missing?

 

I want to know that my work will not be included in any other crazy Distributors / NU hybrid schemes and that this Chinese Distributor no longer has any of my work in that scheme. If I can't be sure of this by way of Alamy guaranteeing it then it leaves me with no option other than to opt out of Distributor as well. Mind you, that didn't work with NU did it 🤔

Edited by Duncan_Andison
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Just stepping back from this for a moment. I am in all distribution and also NU but had none of mine included in this China deal.

 

However, I did have some China sales at around the same time through another agency - well essentially they are just a distributor as they don't seem to sell direct at all - and I got 2 cents for each!!

 

My point being that at least Alamy does offer opt outs even if the operation is not foolproof. Other agencies/distributors don't offer such options, and they don't enter into any dialogue either.

 

I understand that fees of c 10 cents are routine at many micro stock sites. Is that not correct?

Edited by geogphotos
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3 hours ago, Cryptoprocta said:

Also, people whose files were wrongly included in this 'strategy' should be recompensed, for use without their permission.

Tough to see what damage they've suffered. There's been no loss of opportunity because Alamy's not exclusive, and of course they've actually made sales, albeit at a price they don't accept. But the contract covers that- Alamy decides what prices to accept, not contributors.

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12 minutes ago, spacecadet said:

Tough to see what damage they've suffered. There's been no loss of opportunity because Alamy's not exclusive, and of course they've actually made sales, albeit at a price they don't accept. But the contract covers that- Alamy decides what prices to accept, not contributors.

 

 

agree.  I was looking at this and in the end came up with the same conclusion.   The only thing i could see is i am not sure Alamy should be compensated, but this would only be nominal.

 

 

I am more looking at better information from Alamy to make sure we can all make informed decisions in the future, like average licencing per distributor markets, and more timely actions to correct- why has an opt-out still not taken effect 8 months later? 

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33 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

I understand that fees of c 10 cents are routine at many micro stock sites. Is that not correct?

I don't know much about 'many' micro sites. At my other place, I do have some of the 2c sales of which you speak, but that's not via the micro but via the allegedly macro 'overlord'.

I also had a $75 net sale, from a 2005 photo from a camera Alamy wouldn't accept. Ages since I had such a high net value sale on Alamy.

In December I had an average net rpd of $1.79 there, but 109 sales (best last year, for fairness).

In Dec in December on Alamy, I had an average rpd of $3.53, but only 7 sales.

So far in Jan, I've had 5 sales and a refund on Alamy, taking me to a net total of $5.39 for the month.

 

One may ask, why upload to Alamy then?

Easy: when I'm hacked off with one, I upload to the other, and vice versa.

When I'm hacked off with both at the same time, I shoot for myself, or take a break from photography.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, spacecadet said:

Tough to see what damage they've suffered. There's been no loss of opportunity because Alamy's not exclusive, and of course they've actually made sales, albeit at a price they don't accept. But the contract covers that- Alamy decides what prices to accept, not contributors.

 

Disagree. The contract allows contributors to opt IN or OUT Novel Use, for usages that fall outside normal licensing & pricing. 0.04/0.15 is clearly no normal pricing, and Alamy already admitted an error from their part. 

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1 minute ago, Taina said:

 

Disagree. The contract allows contributors to opt IN or OUT Novel Use, for usages that fall outside normal licensing & pricing. 0.04/0.15 is clearly no normal pricing, and Alamy already admitted an error from their part. 

 

Sadly 15 cents is not really outside of current normal pricing.  Plenty of people reporting sub 25 cents licences under regular schemes over the last 6 months.

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39 minutes ago, Cryptoprocta said:

I don't know much about 'many' micro sites. At my other place, I do have some of the 2c sales of which you speak, but that's not via the micro but via the allegedly macro 'overlord'.

I also had a $75 net sale, from a 2005 photo from a camera Alamy wouldn't accept. Ages since I had such a high net value sale on Alamy.

In December I had an average net rpd of $1.79 there, but 109 sales (best last year, for fairness).

In Dec in December on Alamy, I had an average rpd of $3.53, but only 7 sales.

So far in Jan, I've had 5 sales and a refund on Alamy, taking me to a net total of $5.39 for the month.

 

One may ask, why upload to Alamy then?

Easy: when I'm hacked off with one, I upload to the other, and vice versa.

When I'm hacked off with both at the same time, I shoot for myself, or take a break from photography.

 

 

 

 

I have stopped uploading to the distributor I mentioned previously. I have resumed Alamy uploads and have been working like crazy to catch up with myself. 

 

We do have choice over who we supply.

 

As I have mentioned before ( and I always get loads of red arrows) I am mystified by those who willingly support micro stock ( and therefore accept that business model) and then complain about similar fees at Alamy.  

 

Surely willingly helping sustain a business model based on low fees ........???

 

 

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I was specifically complaining about Alamy not adhering to the choices its contributers made, and how they're going to make up for that error.

Thankfully, it didn't affect me, but it's a poor show when they admit a mistake, but do nothing to make things right for those affected.

I note also that these sales seem to have been notified for over a year, yet all payments are being made at the post-contract-change rates. Hardly matters to individual contributors, but it would be interesting to know by how much Alamy has benefitted on the mony a mickle maks a muckle principle.

Just like when we (and I was one of these) notified Alamy of unnotified in-uses from before the contract change, but were eventually paid at the post-contract change rate.

 

I accept that your experience is different from mine, and both from everyone else's.

My biggest mistake in stock was the 2.5 years I uploaded to Alamy only.

 

And don't imagine for a micro-moment that I don't complain on my other place's forums about the idiocy of selling images for peanuts in China when they have a scant regard for copyright.

Edited by Cryptoprocta
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3 hours ago, geogphotos said:

Just stepping back from this for a moment. I am in all distribution and also NU but had none of mine included in this China deal.

 

However, I did have some China sales at around the same time through another agency - well essentially they are just a distributor as they don't seem to sell direct at all - and I got 2 cents for each!!

 

My point being that at least Alamy does offer opt outs even if the operation is not foolproof. Other agencies/distributors don't offer such options, and they don't enter into any dialogue either.

 

I understand that fees of c 10 cents are routine at many micro stock sites. Is that not correct?

 

There is one that has a low of $0.10 but plenty of higher value ones. My main site away from here averages with high £xx net p/day. I've removed the figures as I'm not sure it breaks Alamy rules but, what I'm trying to say is you are very fixated with Micros being evil yet if you produce the right work, you can make well over £xx,xxx net per year from just one agency. It's very different from the work that sells here.

Edited by Duncan_Andison
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52 minutes ago, Duncan_Andison said:

 

There is one that has a low of $0.10 but plenty of higher value ones. My main site away from here averages with high £xx net p/day. I've removed the figures as I'm not sure it breaks Alamy rules but, what I'm trying to say is you are very fixated with Micros being evil yet if you produce the right work, you can make well over £xx,xxx net per year from just one agency. It's very different from the work that sells here.

 

Even if true it hardly explains why those selling at micros should feel hard done by getting micro level fees at Alamy.  After all you have willingly helped create such a market. As I explained I am also getting those sort of fees - and I have done the opposite of supporting micros by staying with RM and macros. 

 

If you are making five figures elsewhere it does rather beg the question. 

Edited by geogphotos
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58 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

Even if true it hardly explains why those selling at micros should feel hard done by getting micro level fees at Alamy.  After all you have willingly helped create such a market. As I explained I am also getting those sort of fees - and I have done the opposite of supporting micros by staying with RM and macros. 

 

If you are making five figures elsewhere it does rather beg the question. 

 

what i keep being told is that micro prices are ok, if you get volume.  ironically the Chinese deal seemed to have those qualities but who knows.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, geogphotos said:

 

Even if true it hardly explains why those selling at micros should feel hard done by getting micro level fees at Alamy.  After all you have willingly helped create such a market. As I explained I am also getting those sort of fees - and I have done the opposite of supporting micros by staying with RM and macros. 

 

If you are making five figures elsewhere it does rather beg the question. 

I had only one of these sales thank goodness. I don't feel hard done by because of the fee. I feel hard done by because Alamy has overruled my choices,

1. have never been in nu scheme,

2. have opted out of all distributor sales.

 

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Just now, BobD said:

I had only one of these sales thank goodness. I don't feel hard done by because of the fee. I feel hard done by because Alamy has overruled my choices,

1. have never been in nu scheme,

2. have opted out of all distributor sales.

 

 

and i would add for me the reporting issue which Alamy still has not addressed, when did these download actually happen, all in December and this was a new arrangement? Or any prior to July and if so why is Alamy pocketing the 20% extra commission, and more importantly how these practice will impact people's going forward under the new contract, considering a large portion, and maybe majority, of contributors are going to be silver.   

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