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24 minutes ago, NYCat said:

 

Yes, James is delightful and is from what I have come to think of as the "real" Alamy. If he clarifies this liability confusion I hope you will feel comfortable sharing that with us. My wildlife is not going to sue me but I'm uncomfortable about the unreleased people and property. I plan to stay. Perhaps it will not continue but, so far, I am making more sales with the new company. A few alarmingly low prices but also some $$$. I do miss the old "family" feeling with the awkward videos by James West. They made me smile.

 

Paulette

 

I think if you have detailed questions it would best to email Alamy as I am totally exhausted from this and not really intending to act as a voice for contributors. Secondhand stuff coming from me is not likely to have any impact anyway given the reaction to the Alamy post earlier in regard to its legal status.

 

If you read back through this thread, I have been posting lot and trying to point out and even reassure (with gut feeling) that a lot of the stuff that appears new has been around for a long time and is not really about Alamy trying to make sneaky modifications to the contract. Most of the liability stuff has been around for years in one form or another. I don't think that the  changes to section 4 are intended to screw contributors. Clause 4.1.6 is the odd one but I don't see it as a reason not to stick around for me at least, as my images are most unlikely to fall foul there. However, I think it is a good time to take stock and do some spring cleaning of my port. I have made all my images editorial only for now and I am going to work back through them and see what I want to delete and what I want to derestrict.

 

I do believe the main issue here is exclusivity as well as the new pay structure. However, as I have no exclusive images, so I am not even going to think about that any further. I do totally understand why people are very upset and angry about these changes. As has been said several times already, a lot of the problems are around trust. 

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47 minutes ago, Bionic said:

If this is right it would be nice if he had the balls to do so in person rather than via a third party 🤔

 

I have no personal knowledge of James's reproductive organs but he emailed me because it was my post that he was questioning and he wanted me to correct it so third party is not really accurate. Having met James a couple of times at our meet-ups in Cambridge and Ely, he comes across as a very genuine guy and not someone who would have difficulty posting a correction here. In fact I appreciated the email rather than being publicly admonished which he could have easily done. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

I think if you have detailed questions it would best to email Alamy as I am totally exhausted from this and not really intending to act as a voice for contributors. Secondhand stuff coming from me is not likely to have any impact anyway given the reaction to the Alamy post earlier in regard to its legal status.

 

If you read back through this thread, I have been posting lot and trying to point out and even reassure (with gut feeling) that a lot of the stuff that appears new has been around for a long time and is not really about Alamy trying to make sneaky modifications to the contract. Most of the liability stuff has been around for years in one form or another. I don't think that the  changes to section 4 are intended to screw contributors. Clause 4.1.6 is the odd one but I don't see it as a reason not to stick around for me at least, as my images are most unlikely to fall foul there. However, I think it is a good time to take stock and do some spring cleaning of my port. I have made all my images editorial only for now and I am going to work back through them and see what I want to delete and what I want to derestrict.

 

I do believe the main issue here is exclusivity as well as the new pay structure. However, as I have no exclusive images, so I am not even going to think about that any further. I do totally understand why people are very upset and angry about these changes. As has been said several times already, a lot of the problems are around trust. 

 

I understand. Thank you for your contributions.

 

Paulette

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Posted (edited)

   😩  =  Weary face 

Edited by MDM
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After the last messing with the contract and rates I removed all my "best" images. Now Alamy want to cut more to provide me with infringement services that I don't want.

 

And even though they are going ahead with infringement services they have still told us nothing about how it works, how much infringement fees will be, whats their cut of the infringement (it should be zero if the are funding it through the commission reduction). 

Sales have dropped off a cliff for me this year, I am very de-incentivised to continue all this right now. It's getting to the point where the outputs are not enough for the inputs. As a hobby photographer I have to ask myself is this enjoyable anymore?

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20 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

I think if you have detailed questions it would best to email Alamy as I am totally exhausted from this and not really intending to act as a voice for contributors. Secondhand stuff coming from me is not likely to have any impact anyway given the reaction to the Alamy post earlier in regard to its legal status.

 

If you read back through this thread, I have been posting lot and trying to point out and even reassure (with gut feeling) that a lot of the stuff that appears new has been around for a long time and is not really about Alamy trying to make sneaky modifications to the contract. Most of the liability stuff has been around for years in one form or another. I don't think that the  changes to section 4 are intended to screw contributors. Clause 4.1.6 is the odd one but I don't see it as a reason not to stick around for me at least, as my images are most unlikely to fall foul there. However, I think it is a good time to take stock and do some spring cleaning of my port. I have made all my images editorial only for now and I am going to work back through them and see what I want to delete and what I want to derestrict.

 

I do believe the main issue here is exclusivity as well as the new pay structure. However, as I have no exclusive images, so I am not even going to think about that any further. I do totally understand why people are very upset and angry about these changes. As has been said several times already, a lot of the problems are around trust. 

 

 

i want to say i totally recognise and appreciate all the efforts you have put into this.   I do agree with you that i don't think the current management is there to use the clauses as they are written, my concerns are and still will remains then why write them as such.  The issue that exist is once something has been put in, it will be easy for someone else coming in to not have any qualms in using it as written- i have been part of too many management changes.   

 

 

 

I too have made all image with potential content issue "editorial only", will likely remove the exclusivity label July 1 on 90%- they can pursue infringement on some highly technical content that i took specifically for Alamy.

 

 

again, I highly respect your input throughout this week. 

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3 minutes ago, meanderingemu said:

 

 

i want to say i totally recognise and appreciate all the efforts you have put into this.   I do agree with you that i don't think the current management is there to use the clauses as they are written, my concerns are and still will remains then why write them as such.  The issue that exist is once something has been put in, it will be easy for someone else coming in to not have any qualms in using it as written- i have been part of too many management changes.   

 

 

 

I too have made all image with potential content issue "editorial only", will likely remove the exclusivity label July 1 on 90%- they can pursue infringement on some highly technical content that i took specifically for Alamy.

 

 

again, I highly respect your input throughout this week. 

 

Merci beaucoup mon ami. 😀

 

 

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24 minutes ago, NYCat said:

 

I understand. Thank you for your contributions.

 

Paulette

 

And thanks for the thanks to you Paulette. 

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34 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

I think if you have detailed questions it would best to email Alamy as I am totally exhausted from this and not really intending to act as a voice for contributors. Secondhand stuff coming from me is not likely to have any impact anyway given the reaction to the Alamy post earlier in regard to its legal status.

 

If you read back through this thread, I have been posting lot and trying to point out and even reassure (with gut feeling) that a lot of the stuff that appears new has been around for a long time and is not really about Alamy trying to make sneaky modifications to the contract. Most of the liability stuff has been around for years in one form or another. I don't think that the  changes to section 4 are intended to screw contributors. Clause 4.1.6 is the odd one but I don't see it as a reason not to stick around for me at least, as my images are most unlikely to fall foul there. However, I think it is a good time to take stock and do some spring cleaning of my port. I have made all my images editorial only for now and I am going to work back through them and see what I want to delete and what I want to derestrict.

 

I do believe the main issue here is exclusivity as well as the new pay structure. However, as I have no exclusive images, so I am not even going to think about that any further. I do totally understand why people are very upset and angry about these changes. As has been said several times already, a lot of the problems are around trust. 

 

I understand why you're suggesting that we wait and calm down.  For many people that's not a bad thing to do. 

 

We have some control over our earnings, but not complete control.   There's a triangle -- quality, rarity, demand.  I can have control over quality and some control over rarity, but not demand.  Very rare things may be licensed very rarely.  Almost no major cityscape or tourist attraction on land is going to be unique to Alamy given that most of the world does tend to be saturated by tourist photographers, local pros, and staff photographer for Reuters.   A photographer can take a better photograph of these, but even then, sometimes, good enough is good enough for less money.   Every cathedral in Nicaragua was been photographed from the outside, including the one in Jinotega. 

Looks to me that Alamy wants to outsource the stock photography to various agencies and collections and outsource sales staffing to various distributors, which makes some sense in terms of national connections.   Understand why they're doing it. 

 

But they're not making those changes for my benefit, not that they should, but my staying would just be frustrating to me.

 

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Through Twitter Alamy actively encourage amateur photographers to join and upload their photographs so to my mind they should accept that not all of them will understand the complex issues of stock sales. Many new contributors struggle with even the basics let alone confusing contract clauses. Anything Alamy can do to simplify and protect their contributors legal rights should be part of their business model but it seems that there is no duty of care for contributors. Alamy seem more interested in protecting buyers and the company than they do for the very people who supply their product. Confusing contracts with too many grey areas are also as likely to put off potential new contributors as the extortionate commission rates. There seems to be no justifiable reason for the increased commission demand other than to satisfy shareholders in the company. Some contributors have already posted their intent to leave whilst some have indicated they will remain. For those that will remain I wonder how long before they're faced with another percentage increase and then another and another. For people like myself (retired) maybe it's time to get out and find a cheaper hobby or at least one that I won't lose my home over. I have a month to decide.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm of the opinion that the controversial (read potentially damaging) clauses that Alamy have chosen to insert/amend cannot legally be retrospectively applied. I believe both parties are bound by the TC's applicable at the time of supplying our images. If this is so, we need only to consider future submissions (if any) that may fall foul of legal eagles.

 

Hope I'm right and that the promised response from Alamy will pour some light on this.

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5 minutes ago, ReeRay said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm of the opinion that the controversial (read potentially damaging) clauses that Alamy have chosen to insert/amend cannot legally be retrospectively applied. I believe both parties are bound by the TC's applicable at the time of supplying our images. If this is so, we need only to consider future submissions (if any) that may fall foul of legal eagles.

 

Hope I'm right and that the promised response from Alamy will pour some light on this.

 

Alamy responded upthread. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, MizBrown said:

 

Alamy responded upthread. 

Aargh - Thanks, hadn't seen that. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion relating to retrospective amendments. Hope I'm right!

 

As Jill Morgan pointed out, "Alamy has not covered the liability issues of the photographer in this statement.  So we can assume we are right in that we the contributor are supposedly liable for misuse of our images?"

 

Past images also?

 

 

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17 minutes ago, ReeRay said:

Aargh - Thanks, hadn't seen that. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion relating to retrospective amendments. Hope I'm right!

 

As Jill Morgan pointed out, "Alamy has not covered the liability issues of the photographer in this statement.  So we can assume we are right in that we the contributor are supposedly liable for misuse of our images?"

 

Past images also?

 

 

From an earlier contract: 

 

19. Amendment and variation

19.1. Alamy may vary this Contract by altering or deleting any of its provisions or adding any new provisions by giving you 45 days prior notice at any time. If You do not accept any of the variations You have the right to terminate this Contract by giving written notice to Alamy in accordance with the provisions of clause 20.1.2.5.

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39 minutes ago, ReeRay said:

Aargh - Thanks, hadn't seen that. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion relating to retrospective amendments. Hope I'm right!

 

As Jill Morgan pointed out, "Alamy has not covered the liability issues of the photographer in this statement.  So we can assume we are right in that we the contributor are supposedly liable for misuse of our images?"

 

Past images also?

 

 

 

Perhaps someone on the forum knows a friendly lawyer who can advise?

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8 minutes ago, MizBrown said:

From an earlier contract: 

 

19. Amendment and variation

19.1. Alamy may vary this Contract by altering or deleting any of its provisions or adding any new provisions by giving you 45 days prior notice at any time. If You do not accept any of the variations You have the right to terminate this Contract by giving written notice to Alamy in accordance with the provisions of clause 20.1.2.5.

 

Seems I may be wrong then - but I'd love to see it tested in a Court of Law.

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4 hours ago, MizBrown said:

<snip>

Looks to me that Alamy wants to outsource the stock photography to various agencies and collections and outsource sales staffing to various distributors, which makes some sense in terms of national connections.   Understand why they're doing it. 

 

But they're not making those changes for my benefit, not that they should, but my staying would just be frustrating to me.

 

 

I agree with you. Alamy's growth appears to be driven by submissions by other agencies. Individual contributors are of benefit, but don't appear to feature high up in their growth plans. As agencies place large amounts of stock with each other there will be no individuality to attract clients with specific needs. Is it viable for contributors, I would suggest not longer term, and for some not now, it's likely to be downhill for many. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ReeRay said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm of the opinion that the controversial (read potentially damaging) clauses that Alamy have chosen to insert/amend cannot legally be retrospectively applied. I believe both parties are bound by the TC's applicable at the time of supplying our images. If this is so, we need only to consider future submissions (if any) that may fall foul of legal eagles.

 

Hope I'm right and that the promised response from Alamy will pour some light on this.

I'm not a lawyer, but I expect the following logic would apply.

 

If a contributor chooses to leave their previously uploaded images on sale at Alamy (thereby accepting the terms of the new contract) then the new rules will apply to those images, from 1st July onwards.

The new rules will not apply to licences that were granted on those images before 1st July (they will be covered by whatever rules were in place when the licence was granted).

 

Mark

Edited by M.Chapman
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7 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I expect the following logic would apply.

 

If a contributor chooses to leave their previously uploaded images on sale at Alamy (thereby accepting the terms of the new contract) then the new rules will apply to those images, from 1st July onwards.

The new rules will not apply to licences that were granted on those images before 1st July (they will be covered by whatever rules were in place when the licence was granted).

 

Mark

That makes sense. Still an completely unsatisfactory state of affairs. Weighing up the possibility of cancelling and spending my time elsewhere.

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8 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

 

Make a joke suggestion that Alamy has posted a red arrow on the forum and you get an almost immediate response and an offer of answers to more questions.... Seems more effective than 50 pages of ranting :wacko:

 

Mark


This isn’t really a statement that represents the reality, Mark!

 

To be clear, MDM hinted that Alamy were going through and downvoting posts in this thread. That’s not true, and something that would not be very helpful to be discussed upon within this thread so I asked him to clarify. I also offered to answer any other questions he may have.

 

Emailing us questions is open to all contributors as we have said throughout our communications on this. You can email contributors@alamy.com for general support and if you want to email the MD of Alamy, Emily Shelley, directly, you can also do that at md@alamy.com.

 

It’s not practical for us to get into a live Q+A here because if we answer one question as it’s written, another will follow and with the best will in the world we won’t be able to keep on top of it through the week in this way.

 

We will continue to post “round up” clarifications here as needed but for specific questions you would like quicker answers on, email is the way to go.

 

Best regards,

 

James Allsworth

Head of Content

 

 

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26 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I expect the following logic would apply.

 

If a contributor chooses to leave their previously uploaded images on sale at Alamy (thereby accepting the terms of the new contract) then the new rules will apply to those images, from 1st July onwards.

The new rules will not apply to licences that were granted on those images before 1st July (they will be covered by whatever rules were in place when the licence was granted).

 

Mark

I am also not a lawyer, but I think that if we accept a new contract, we will be bound by it. Forget what it was. Now follow the new contract. Dot

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17 minutes ago, Radim said:

I am also not a lawyer, but I think that if we accept a new contract, we will be bound by it. Forget what it was. Now follow the new contract. Dot

correct -we will

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, sb photos said:

 

I agree with you. Alamy's growth appears to be driven by submissions by other agencies. Individual contributors are of benefit, but don't appear to feature high up in their growth plans. As agencies place large amounts of stock with each other there will be no individuality to attract clients with specific needs. Is it viable for contributors, I would suggest not longer term, and for some not now, it's likely to be downhill for many. 

 

Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on;
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.

 

 

from "Siphonaptera"  by Augustus De Morgan

 

The problem is the food chain, every one (many only taking, (not adding value) takes their cut before the photographer gets the little thaqqt is left. I saw the same problem in the freelance IT contractor's market.  Agencies working through other agencies, ad infinitum. But same here.

Edited by Martin P Wilson
typo
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2 hours ago, Alamy said:


This isn’t really a statement that represents the reality, Mark!

 

To be clear, MDM hinted that Alamy were going through and downvoting posts in this thread. That’s not true, and something that would not be very helpful to be discussed upon within this thread so I asked him to clarify. I also offered to answer any other questions he may have.

 

Emailing us questions is open to all contributors as we have said throughout our communications on this. You can email contributors@alamy.com for general support and if you want to email the MD of Alamy, Emily Shelley, directly, you can also do that at md@alamy.com.

 

It’s not practical for us to get into a live Q+A here because if we answer one question as it’s written, another will follow and with the best will in the world we won’t be able to keep on top of it through the week in this way.

 

We will continue to post “round up” clarifications here as needed but for specific questions you would like quicker answers on, email is the way to go.

 

Best regards,

 

James Allsworth

Head of Content

 

 

 

How about clearing up in Plain English the extent of our legal liabilities if we honestly tag our images correctly.

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