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Sally R

Capture One Express Manufacturer's Profile Query

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I've just downloaded Capture One Express for Sony. I'm editing images taken with the Sony RX100 VA. In the lens correction tools there is an option to use the manufacturer's profile. However, when I go down the list of profiles only ones for the Sony RX100 and Sony RX100 II are available. I am wondering if there is a glitch/bug regarding some profiles after reading this: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360009399418-Lens-Profile-Options-Missing-in-Capture-One-Express

 

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this?

 

I was hoping lens distortion could be automatically corrected for my specific camera. I know it corrects lens distortion in-camera for JPEGS, but I'm shooting in RAW, so was hoping for a quick editing fix. Possibly I need the Pro version for my camera (but not keen on getting that at this stage). They have a generic option for lens distortion, but so far haven't found that helpful.

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I don't see that listed in the Pro version – if these are what you're referring to.

 

rc9GCZw.jpg

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Hi Sally,

Looks related to Thomas' thread:

 

Edited by Steve F

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In Lightroom/ACR, the Sony built-in lens profile is automatically applied to the raw file so it is not possible to apply a 3rd party profile Otto remove the built-in one. There would be no reason to do this in any case. It is possible to change the distortion settings afterwards. I suspect it is the same for Capture One. This is becoming more common. Nikon have started doing it with Z lenses, effectively requiring Adobe to apply the Nikon profile to the raw file.
 

It is nothing to worry about. 

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1 hour ago, Sally R said:

I've just downloaded Capture One Express for Sony. I'm editing images taken with the Sony RX100 VA. In the lens correction tools there is an option to use the manufacturer's profile. However, when I go down the list of profiles only ones for the Sony RX100 and Sony RX100 II are available. I am wondering if there is a glitch/bug regarding some profiles after reading this: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360009399418-Lens-Profile-Options-Missing-in-Capture-One-Express

 

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this?

 

I was hoping lens distortion could be automatically corrected for my specific camera. I know it corrects lens distortion in-camera for JPEGS, but I'm shooting in RAW, so was hoping for a quick editing fix. Possibly I need the Pro version for my camera (but not keen on getting that at this stage). They have a generic option for lens distortion, but so far haven't found that helpful.

When you go to the lens correction tab what does it show as the profile, generic or manufacturer profile? For my 100mkiii it shows manufacturer profile even though if you dig deeper it’s not listed. It is definitely applying the correction and the distortion slider sits at 100 reduce this and it shows the original capture. 
Apologies if that was a bit of a ramble but replying between jobs at work :)

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22 minutes ago, MDM said:

In Lightroom/ACR, the Sony built-in lens profile is automatically applied to the raw file so it is not possible to apply a 3rd party profile Otto remove the built-in one. There would be no reason to do this in any case. It is possible to change the distortion settings afterwards. I suspect it is the same for Capture One. This is becoming more common. Nikon have started doing it with Z lenses, effectively requiring Adobe to apply the Nikon profile to the raw file.
 

It is nothing to worry about. 

What if Lightroom hasn't updated its lens profiles list for all Sony lenses or cameras, e.g. the Sony RX100 VA? LR just seems to apply a random profile for me sometimes if it doesn't recognise the lens. I had to get some extra software to convert the A7iii raw files to a format that LR could read for the first couple of months after the A7iii camera came out because LR hadn't updated the software yet.

Edited by Steve F

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1 hour ago, Thomas Kyhn said:

I don't see that listed in the Pro version – if these are what you're referring to.

 

Thanks Thomas. Yes that was what I meant. It looks like it doesn't list the Sony RX100 VA in either version. I was interested to read your post about Capture One. I've only been using it a few hours so difficult to make an assessment at this stage. Some things feel intuitive and others not. I can't say I've bonded with it yet.

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38 minutes ago, MDM said:

In Lightroom/ACR, the Sony built-in lens profile is automatically applied to the raw file so it is not possible to apply a 3rd party profile Otto remove the built-in one. There would be no reason to do this in any case. It is possible to change the distortion settings afterwards. I suspect it is the same for Capture One. This is becoming more common. Nikon have started doing it with Z lenses, effectively requiring Adobe to apply the Nikon profile to the raw file.

 

Right, ok, thanks MDM. I've actually been using old software up till now that doesn't even do lens distortion correction, so I'm new to figuring out how it all works.

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Just now, Sally R said:

Thanks Thomas. Yes that was what I meant. It looks like it doesn't list the Sony RX100 VA in either version. I was interested to read your post about Capture One. I've only been using it a few hours so difficult to make an assessment at this stage. Some things feel intuitive and others not. I can't say I've bonded with it yet.

 

In some respects it's better than Lightroom, but in its current state I find that it isn't sufficiently reliable.

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36 minutes ago, Bionic said:

When you go to the lens correction tab what does it show as the profile, generic or manufacturer profile? For my 100mkiii it shows manufacturer profile even though if you dig deeper it’s not listed. It is definitely applying the correction and the distortion slider sits at 100 reduce this and it shows the original capture. 
Apologies if that was a bit of a ramble but replying between jobs at work :)

 

Thanks Bionic for replying in between your work jobs! It showed as manufacturer profile, so I think it must be as you suggest, that it is applying the correction. I thought I had to go in and select a specific profile for my camera.

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2 minutes ago, Thomas Kyhn said:

In some respects it's better than Lightroom, but in its current state I find that it isn't sufficiently reliable.

 

Thanks Thomas. Some of the things you described sounded pretty frustrating. I will see how I go with this free version and whether I get used to it, but I think I might trial some other software too.

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3 minutes ago, Sally R said:

 

Right, ok, thanks MDM. I've actually been using old software up till now that doesn't even do lens distortion correction, so I'm new to figuring out how it all works.


No problem Sally. I first saw this with Z series Nikon and was a bit confused. As Bionic says, it will be applying the profile. I read somewhere that lens manufacturers are prioritising sharpness over geometry as this is easy to correct in post and they prefer to have people use their own profile. 

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28 minutes ago, Steve F said:

What if Lightroom hasn't updated its lens profiles list for all Sony lenses or cameras, e.g. the Sony RX100 VA? LR just seems to apply a random profile for me sometimes if it doesn't recognise the lens. I had to get some extra software to convert the A7iii raw files to a format that LR could read for the first couple of months after the A7iii camera came out because LR hadn't updated the software yet.

 

Thanks for the input Steve. The Sony RX100 VA has been around for a bit now, so theoretically it should be applying lens correction, but it is possible something is amiss there. I'll keep looking into it.

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4 minutes ago, MDM said:

No problem Sally. I first saw this with Z series Nikon and was a bit confused. As Bionic says, it will be applying the profile. I read somewhere that lens manufacturers are prioritising sharpness over geometry as this is easy to correct in post and they prefer to have people use their own profile. 

 

Thanks MDM. That's interesting to know, that sharpness is being prioritised over geometry. Feel like I've got a bit to learn in this area!

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30 minutes ago, Steve F said:

What if Lightroom hasn't updated its lens profiles list for all Sony lenses or cameras, e.g. the Sony RX100 VA? LR just seems to apply a random profile for me sometimes if it doesn't recognise the lens. I had to get some extra software to convert the A7iii raw files to a format that LR could read for the first couple of months after the A7iii camera came out because LR hadn't updated the software yet.


You are talking two different things there. In relation to cameras, Adobe need to provide an update in the raw converter for each new camera which they do on a regular basis. If you get a camera that is so new there is no update, then it is down to the camera manufacturer’s software if that exists I guess. 

For lens profiles, I haven’t had any lenses so new that there is no built-in profile available where that is required by the manufacturer (e.g. Nikon Z). For lenses where you can choose a profile, if it doesn’t recognise the lens, then you can choose one from a list.  I think this sticks thereafter but I might be wrong. Again I have no lenses so new that there is no profile although that is not the case for older lenses. You have various options including getting a third party profile, creating your own (Adobe provide free software if you are so inclined) or work without a lens profile. They are not essential. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Sally R said:

 

Thanks MDM. That's interesting to know, that sharpness is being prioritised over geometry. Feel like I've got a bit to learn in this area!

 

That is a very general statement, unrelated to the RX100 cameras, and I would not want to be asked to back it up 😀. I know next to nothing about lens design but I read that there is a general playoff between sharpness and geometric accuracy. I do know that the Nikon Z lenses I have tried are unbelievably sharp. 

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I think the trend is towards distortion, CA and vignetting correction parameters being included in the RAW file and LR/ACR applies them automaticaly. It's been happening with fixed lens cameras for a while and newer interchangeable lens cameras too. The Lens (or camera?) firmware includes a table of distortion and CA correction parameters at a range of focal lengths (and maybe apertures too). When the picture is taken the current focal length (and aperture) is used to select the appropriate correction parameters from the table. The camera then applies these corrections when generating the live view display and in camera jpg. It also "bakes" the sames values into the RAW file so that downstream RAW convertor software can make the same correction. In most software you can't disable the corrections (allowing manufacturers to "hide" the extreme levels of distortion correction now being applied as lens design prioritises sharpness). DXO optics is one of the exceptions (or used to be).

 

If you convert your RAW file to a DNG it's possible to inspect these "hidden" distortion correction parameters as their storage format is defined as "Opcodes" in the DNG spec. See Chapter 7 of this document https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf

 

My Lumix G7 Camera uses these parameters. I haven't checked my RX100, but I suspect it's the same.

 

Mark

 

   

Edited by M.Chapman
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1 minute ago, M.Chapman said:

I think the trend is towards distortion, CA and vignetting correction parameters being included in the RAW file and LR/ACR applies them automaticaly. It's been happening with fixed lens cameras for a while and newer interchangeable lens cameras too. The Lens (or camera?) firmware includes a table of distortion and CA correction parameters at a range of focal lengths (and maybe apertures too). When the picture is taken the current focal length (and aperture) is used to select the appropriate correction parameters from the table. The camera then applies these corrections when generating the live view display and in camera jpg. It also "bakes" the sames values into the RAW file so that downstream RAW convertor software can make the same correction. In most software you can't disable the corrections (allowing manufacturers to "hide" the extreme levels of distortion correction now being applied as lens design prioritises sharpness). DXO optics is one of the exceptions (or used to be).

 

If you convert your RAW file to a DNG it's possible to inspect the distortion correction parameters as their storage format is defined as "Opcodes" in the DNG spec. See Chapter 7 of this document https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf

 

Mark

 

   

 

I couldn't have put it better myself Mark. 😎

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34 minutes ago, M.Chapman said:

allowing manufacturers to "hide" the extreme levels of distortion correction now being applied as lens design prioritises sharpness

Someone (and perhaps it was you Mark) uploaded an example of this extreme distortion that would otherwise go unnoticed, it might have been from the little Sony at its wide end, it was a totally different frame to the one off the sensor. The fact that most of the pixels are new ones does make me feel very uncomfortable I must say though I suppose rationally I should just be concerned about the end result. None of the lens profiles that I use on my Fujis or Canons make very much of a difference and for the older film era lenses that I use there's no profile anyway of course, they're just good lenses.

Edited by Harry Harrison

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58 minutes ago, MDM said:


You are talking two different things there. In relation to cameras, Adobe need to provide an update in the raw converter for each new camera which they do on a regular basis. If you get a camera that is so new there is no update, then it is down to the camera manufacturer’s software if that exists I guess. 

For lens profiles, I haven’t had any lenses so new that there is no built-in profile available where that is required by the manufacturer (e.g. Nikon Z). For lenses where you can choose a profile, if it doesn’t recognise the lens, then you can choose one from a list.  I think this sticks thereafter but I might be wrong. Again I have no lenses so new that there is no profile although that is not the case for older lenses. You have various options including getting a third party profile, creating your own (Adobe provide free software if you are so inclined) or work without a lens profile. They are not essential. 

 

Ok, thanks, I understand better now.

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3 hours ago, Harry Harrison said:

Someone (and perhaps it was you Mark) uploaded an example of this extreme distortion that would otherwise go unnoticed, it might have been from the little Sony at its wide end, it was a totally different frame to the one off the sensor.

 

Yes it was me. Pictures below are from the Sony RX100 Mk III at widest angle (8.8mm) with distortion correction on and off (according to DXO Optics 9). DXO use their own profile for lens correction and you can turn it on and off. I've been unable to verify if the lens correction parameters are also "baked" into my Sony's RAW files (they aren't visible in the RAW or the DNG EXIF data, but that doesn't meant they aren't there). I'm sure I had DNG file inspector somewhere...

 

RX100-Mk3-distortion-correction-ON.png

 

RX100-Mk3-distortion-correction-OFF.png

 

Scary amount of distortion correction. Look how many corner pixels get thown away, and the remainder get "stretched" to fill the space, giving some corner softness...

 

Mark

 

Edited by M.Chapman

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5 hours ago, Sally R said:

I've just downloaded Capture One Express for Sony. I'm editing images taken with the Sony RX100 VA. In the lens correction tools there is an option to use the manufacturer's profile. However, when I go down the list of profiles only ones for the Sony RX100 and Sony RX100 II are available. I am wondering if there is a glitch/bug regarding some profiles after reading this: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360009399418-Lens-Profile-Options-Missing-in-Capture-One-Express

 

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this?

 

I was hoping lens distortion could be automatically corrected for my specific camera. I know it corrects lens distortion in-camera for JPEGS, but I'm shooting in RAW, so was hoping for a quick editing fix. Possibly I need the Pro version for my camera (but not keen on getting that at this stage). They have a generic option for lens distortion, but so far haven't found that helpful.

 

The option to use the manufacturer's profile doesn't even exist on my Version of Capture One Express for Sony,  just "default lens correction", whatever that is . What version (build) do you have? Mine is 13.0.0. Perhaps I should update.

Edited by John Mitchell

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It’s up to 13.1.2 now if I remember rightly and there have been quite a few changes (in the full version at least) :)

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24 minutes ago, Bionic said:

It’s up to 13.1.2 now if I remember rightly and there have been quite a few changes (in the full version at least) :)

 

Thanks. I just updated Capture One Express for Sony to version 13.1.2 , and the missing Sony lens profile list has mysteriously returned. 

 

Auto distortion correction seems to working, and all my Sony e-mount lenses are listed. 

Edited by John Mitchell
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1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

Yes it was me

Thanks for uploading them again, fairly extreme but it's a fairly demanding subject with all that text so I guess it does a pretty good job. I'd hate to have to do that much correction manually though. Presumably it would still pass the acid test, Alamy QC.

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