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3 minutes ago, gvallee said:

 

 Thanks Michael. I'm still waiting to be sold on Lightroom. I've got the CC subscription but never use Lightroom. I don't feel I'm missing anything but if someone convinces me, I might give it a go. My workflow is I do basic edit in ACR, refine the edit in PS and keyword in Bridge. 

 

 

I don't know if I have the power to convince but I do think it is worth checking out. Baking in a heatwave right now - 31C outside at the moment and hotter in my computer room despite having all the windows and curtains closed. This is not normal so takes a bit of getting used to. For you it is probably a relatively cool day. Back later 😎

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, gvallee said:

 

 Thanks Michael. I'm still waiting to be sold on Lightroom. I've got the CC subscription but never use Lightroom. I don't feel I'm missing anything but if someone convinces me, I might give it a go. My workflow is I do basic edit in ACR, refine the edit in PS and keyword in Bridge. 

 

 

 

I use ACR, finish and save as JPEG in PS, upload to temporary gallery and keyword at Photoshelter, send to Alamy by FTP,  place in permanent gallery at Photoshelter and make live on my website. 

Edited by geogphotos

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28 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

I don't know if I have the power to convince but I do think it is worth checking out. Baking in a heatwave right now - 31C outside at the moment and hotter in my computer room despite having all the windows and curtains closed. This is not normal so takes a bit of getting used to. For you it is probably a relatively cool day. Back later 😎

 

No rush. 31C is actually the temperature we're having right now. Every day is the same, blue sky and perfect temperature. Believe me, after months of camping by 40C+ (up to 47C), this is balmy. But I do understand. 

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Gen, I do have to say I love the upright tool in LR better than ACR. But I’ve been busy and haven’t updated ACR, yet. To me, most of the adjustments I make in LR seem easier to get the results I want over ACR which for whatever reason doesn’t seem as intuitive.. But I always, when finished in LR, open the image into PS where I do cropping, dust spots, and curves. Those things seem easier (for me) in PS. Very possibly it’s because that’s what I was used to before ever getting LR.
 

I do believe everyone has a workflow they are comfortable with. It might not be better or easier, but that old comfortable shoe feels better than the new stiff one that isn’t broken in.
With me, when I began using LR, I used the develop panel adjustments that seemed instantly intuitive. The things that can be done that perplexed me, or I needed to view videos to figure out and still messed up the image, I left alone and did them in PS. I guess you might call that lazy, but I call it fast. The less time I’m in front of the computer, the happier I am.
Betty

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6 hours ago, Ed Rooney said:

 

That would be a crescent kick. I used to be able to do those. If I tried one now, it might get up around the ankle. 

 

Edo

 

I do believe I can reach the knee, Edo.  So be nice to me.

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😲

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, gvallee said:

 

 Thanks Michael. I'm still waiting to be sold on Lightroom. I've got the CC subscription but never use Lightroom. I don't feel I'm missing anything but if someone convinces me, I might give it a go. My workflow is I do basic edit in ACR, refine the edit in PS and keyword in Bridge. 

 

 

Hi Gen, My workflow is edit RAW in LR initially with presets, make tweaks if necessary, remove dust bunnies if necessary, may use the tools like graduated filter, keyword/tag, save as tiff.

Open in PSE inspect and make any minor teaks if necessary, save as jpeg to my library to await upload to Alamy.

 

In essence most work is done in LR. In fact it could all be done in LR. Using PSE is a long standing workflow going back years. Thinking about it I may just use LR in future to do the whole thing.

 

Allan

 

Edited by Allan Bell

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1 hour ago, Allan Bell said:

edit RAW in LR initially with presets, make tweaks if necessary, remove dust bunnies if necessary, may use the tools like graduated filter,

Mine is this up to here. LR5.7. Photoshop is for birthday cards.

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3 hours ago, Allan Bell said:

 

Hi Gen, My workflow is edit RAW in LR initially with presets, make tweaks if necessary, remove dust bunnies if necessary, may use the tools like graduated filter, keyword/tag, save as tiff.

Open in PSE inspect and make any minor teaks if necessary, save as jpeg to my library to await upload to Alamy.

 

In essence most work is done in LR. In fact it could all be done in LR. Using PSE is a long standing workflow going back years. Thinking about it I may just use LR in future to do the whole thing.

 

Allan

 

 

Thanks Allan. That's what I read before and don't understand. Since PS can do it all and even better, why add a step and wander into Lightroom?

Anyway, I'm not going to enter into a debate and will await Michael's list.

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6 hours ago, Betty LaRue said:

Gen, I do have to say I love the upright tool in LR better than ACR. But I’ve been busy and haven’t updated ACR, yet. To me, most of the adjustments I make in LR seem easier to get the results I want over ACR which for whatever reason doesn’t seem as intuitive.. But I always, when finished in LR, open the image into PS where I do cropping, dust spots, and curves. Those things seem easier (for me) in PS. Very possibly it’s because that’s what I was used to before ever getting LR.
 

I do believe everyone has a workflow they are comfortable with. It might not be better or easier, but that old comfortable shoe feels better than the new stiff one that isn’t broken in.
With me, when I began using LR, I used the develop panel adjustments that seemed instantly intuitive. The things that can be done that perplexed me, or I needed to view videos to figure out and still messed up the image, I left alone and did them in PS. I guess you might call that lazy, but I call it fast. The less time I’m in front of the computer, the happier I am.
Betty

 

Thank you for your insights Betty. I have been using PS/ACR/Bridge for many years, so am completely familiar and comfortable with it, for my workflow anyway. Lightroom would have to offer me some significant improvement. I can't think what it would be because I have nothing to moan about or hope for beyond ACR/PS. But I don't know what I don't know, so I still have the curiosity to find out. As you said, the least time in front of the computer, the better. 

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Posted (edited)

 

Hi Gen

 

I wrote most of the following on my iPad while languishing on my couch in what I was finding fairly overwhelming heat. It has cooled down a little now and is a very pleasant mid-20s. I do  find it takes a bit of getting used to when it gets into the 30s. The 40s are almost unimaginable although it was in the low 40s in Adelaide last time I was in Australia and that was hard going. I guess it is relative to what you are used to up to a point but the high 40s are beyond anything I would want to experience. I never complain about hot weather here though as it is more often on the cold side than not

 

So the Lightroom Develop module does exactly the same job as ACR : it’s a raw editor and converter. Before the recent changes to ACR, I would have said the layout of the tools in the Develop module in Lightroom is a lot better but that is not such a difference anymore and could be considered a matter of taste. That said, a lot of planning went into the Lightroom Develop module and it has evolved nicely over time but in itself it is not the main thing. However, a key advantage of Lightroom is the integration of the Library module with the Develop module. Here you have all your images accessible and visible in one place right beside where you are developing them. To achieve the same thing with ACR, you have to be using Bridge which is far less efficient for viewing, culling and generally managing images than Lightroom. So because of the similarity between the Lightroom Develop module and the revised ACR now, I will focus on the differences between Lightroom and Bridge.  I am specifically comparing a Lightroom workflow to a Bridge/ACR workflow. I also use  Photoshop extensively but am not including that here as that could be part of either workflow. 

 

The real standout feature of Lightroom in comparison to Bridge and indeed any other raw editor that I am aware of is Lightroom’s Catalog which acts as a highly efficient DAM (data asset manager or simply a database if you like).  There are other programs that can be used to manage images but I can’t compare as I don’t use them.

 

The speed of importing, the things that can be done automatically upon import both in terms of metadata and development and the ability to generate very fast initial previews as well as full size previews all enable a much faster and efficient workflow than using Bridge to do something similar.  In addition and very importantly, the database search engine in Lightroom is lightning fast. While Bridge has something similar, it is much slower for finding and filtering images based on numerous multiple criteria. It is also a lot easier to synchronise settings between images in Lightroom. 

 

This can be understood if one understands the difference between the two programs and this is where a lot of people get confused. Bridge is essentially a file browser so if you want to search for images it has to find the actual images on your hard drives.  In contrast, Lightroom stores a pointer to the images, including the metadata and the full size previews, which is far faster and more efficient than using a file browser. The Lightroom  catalog does not contain the images so can be moved around easily, even between computers, and you can have multiple catalogs

 

I find the Lightroom catalog much more robust and reliable than Bridge.  When I used Bridge, I found it very frustrating as it would frequently lose the previews and spend ages regenerating them. It was ok up to maybe 1000 images but it couldn’t handle a large number of files. I also used to find the keywording really complicated. I know people here like to use Bridge because it can retain the order of the keywords but I had it from the horse’s mouth (James Allsworth) when he came to our meeting earlier this year that keyword orders is entirely irrelevant. 

 

So I guess a lot depends on your existing workflow as to whether it is worth investing the capital labour involved in learning how to use Lightroom efficiently. It is not difficult - the most difficult part is in processing raw images which you are obviously adept at from ACR and the differences there are now relatively minor. If you don't need to keep tabs on large numbers of images or perform rapid culling of large numbers of images from shoots then you may not find a huge benefit. As with many things it is necessary to spend time and mental energy learning to use Lightroom properly.

 

I am a great believer in life long learning and in adapting to new software and technology - I have often said that the day I stop learning or wanting to learn because I no longer have the mental energy or inclination or I feel that I am too old to do so will be a dark day in my life. Recently during lockdown, I have spent a lot of time learning to shoot and edit video which is something I had wanted to do for a long time but never got around to. I can probably produce something near professional level video now which is something I couldn't do three months ago.  It's a great feeling really.

 

So I don't know if any of that will convince you to check out Lightroom but feel free to ask me any further questions if you should do.

 

 

Edited by MDM
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Wow Michael!! This was a comprehensive brainstorm!! Now I have no choice but go and look at Lightroom to play with things you mentioned!

 

One item hit a chord, which is the culling of images or selecting keepers. I do lots of bird photography, shooting in burst mode which produces many hundred pix rapidly. The culling takes ages. In fact, I would say, this is the area where I spend most time, not the editing or tagging. And yes, Bridge is slow to generate previews. So it's one thing.

 

I will save your post to analyse and dibest it further. As I mentioned before, I am permanently on the road, moving every few days, I don't always have the Internet, so it might be a bit tricky to find a solid block of time to concentrate on learning.  But it can be done. We are currently waiting for State borders to re-open to travel west, so we might be in a holding pattern somewhere. Thing is it's likely to be in the bush, we'll see. 

 

Like you Michael, I like learning. During the Covid lockdown, I learnt how to make an animated slideshow with music using Timeline in PS. I love it. It's quite absorbing and satisfying. Next, I would like to learn how to edit my drone videos. So much to learn, so little time!

 

Once again, thank you for your time Michael. I hope you have fully recovered from Covid.

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No worries Gen. I will save it for future reference in case anyone asks again.

 

I learn best from books or structured tutorials. If you like books, then for Lightroom I would recommend Martin Evening's Lightroom Book (available on Kindle) as a general reference. Scott Kelby does some good stuff as well - I've not used his Lightroom books but I believe they are very good with a tutorial style.

 

Yes learning is very good for the soul. I had a look at the Timeline in PS that you mention and it looks interesting but I am trying to stay focused and currently exclusively using Final Cut Pro X from Apple.

 

And yes time is flying way too fast. The last three months seem to have vanished although I have actually done quite a lot considering the situation. As for Covid I am getting there but still crashing every so often with fatigue and muscle ache, now well documented it seems. However, I am optimistic, living in the present and looking to the future which is the only way to be I guess. Best of luck with your travels. 

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Thanks Michael. Two greenies from me.

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24 minutes ago, MDM said:

I had a look at the Timeline in PS that you mention and it looks interesting but I am trying to stay focused and currently exclusively using Final Cut Pro X from Apple.

 

 

This was done using Timeline.

 

Also this one. I like the way we can choose the motion for each image (zoom in/out, pan, etc). There are also various options for transitions (fading, etc).

Timeline is very clever because you can mix media: still images, timelapse, videos, all in the same slideshow.

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=706097743487317

 

 

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Posted (edited)

A big difference with LR versus PS is the editing is non-destructive in LR. It's possible to achieve similar in PS by using adjustment layers, but it's more complex. I use both LR and PS because they each have their strengths. I don't LR use for culling - I much prefer BreezeBrowser for culling as it's so much faster (no need to import and I can do instant 4x side by side views at 100%) and then I'll (*temporarily) import only the remaining images into LR if I need to do any kind of batch processing. *I've never really got on with the LR catalog because it doesn't automatically track any renaming or moving of image files done in other apps (e.g. finder/file explorer). But if you can live with doing those operations within LR you'll have less problems. I think it's a "Marmite" thing. Some love the LR catalog and all the benefits it brings for DAM. But others, like me, dislike the constraints it imposes, including increasing the reliance on the Adobe subscription).

 

A great thing that's has happened with recent releases of LR/PS is the unification of some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. For example, develop presets are now common across both packages. The latest revision of PS ACR also uses develop panels that are more similar to those in LR. This makes swapping between LR and PS much easier. 

 

Mark

 

Edited by M.Chapman
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1 hour ago, M.Chapman said:

A big difference with LR versus PS is the editing is non-destructive in LR. It's possible to achieve similar in PS by using adjustment layers, but it's more complex. I use both LR and PS because they each have their strengths. I don't LR use for culling - I much prefer BreezeBrowser for culling as it's so much faster (no need to import and I can do instant 4x side by side views at 100%) and then I'll (*temporarily) import only the remaining images into LR if I need to do any kind of batch processing. *I've never really got on with the LR catalog because it doesn't automatically track any renaming or moving of image files done in other apps (e.g. finder/file explorer). But if you can live with doing those operations within LR you'll have less problems. I think it's a "Marmite" thing. Some love the LR catalog and all the benefits it brings for DAM. But others, like me, dislike the constraints it imposes, including increasing the reliance on the Adobe subscription).

 

A great thing that's has happened with recent releases of LR/PS is the unification of some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. For example, develop presets are now common across both packages. The latest revision of PS ACR also uses develop panels that are more similar to those in LR. This makes swapping between LR and PS much easier. 

 

Mark

 

 

I regularly 'synchronise' the folders so they are up to date. You probably know this, but just right click on a folder and 'synchronise' is one of the options.

 

John.

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8 hours ago, gvallee said:

 

This was done using Timeline.

Also this one. I like the way we can choose the motion for each image (zoom in/out, pan, etc). There are also various options for transitions (fading, etc).

Timeline is very clever because you can mix media: still images, timelapse, videos, all in the same slideshow.

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=706097743487317

 

 

 

Great videos and fantastic nature photography Gen. Really inspiring and a great way to display your still pictures. I am not ready yet to go prime time with my videos. I have just been doing little snippets of wild flowers (some people call them weeds) in the jungle that is my back garden. I am cutting my teeth on a longer video with my science teacher wife which will be used for educational purposes. It's good fun and I'm learning as I go. 

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15 minutes ago, MDM said:

 

Great videos and fantastic nature photography Gen. Really inspiring and a great way to display your still pictures. I am not ready yet to go prime time with my videos. I have just been doing little snippets of wild flowers (some people call them weeds) in the jungle that is my back garden. I am cutting my teeth on a longer video with my science teacher wife which will be used for educational purposes. It's good fun and I'm learning as I go. 

 

Thank you Michael. Those videos are only for fun to put on my Facebook photography page. I have no intention of commercializing them. It was great to learn Timeline, I googled how to edit videos in PS and found a very good video tutorial. I still have to refer to my notes each time I do a new one, which is not very often.

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2 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

A big difference with LR versus PS is the editing is non-destructive in LR. It's possible to achieve similar in PS by using adjustment layers, but it's more complex. I use both LR and PS because they each have their strengths. I don't LR use for culling - I much prefer BreezeBrowser for culling as it's so much faster (no need to import and I can do instant 4x side by side views at 100%) and then I'll (*temporarily) import only the remaining images into LR if I need to do any kind of batch processing. *I've never really got on with the LR catalog because it doesn't automatically track any renaming or moving of image files done in other apps (e.g. finder/file explorer). But if you can live with doing those operations within LR you'll have less problems. I think it's a "Marmite" thing. Some love the LR catalog and all the benefits it brings for DAM. But others, like me, dislike the constraints it imposes, including increasing the reliance on the Adobe subscription).

 

A great thing that's has happened with recent releases of LR/PS is the unification of some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. For example, develop presets are now common across both packages. The latest revision of PS ACR also uses develop panels that are more similar to those in LR. This makes swapping between LR and PS much easier. 

 

Mark

 

 

BreezeBrowser is for Windows so doesn't come into consideration for me. I just let Lightroom build previews and make judgements at 100% in the Develop module if focus is a potential issue. If it isn't then I just cull from the initial previews. I do tend to keep most images initially though until I am sure I have what I want in the bag.

 

As Stokie has already pointed out, it is a trivial matter which takes seconds to synchronise with images that have been moved and there are several ways to do this so that is not an issue for me. 

 

I don't buy the argument about not relying on Adobe for a couple of reasons and it is not entirely relevant here in any case as we are comparing a Lightroom workflow with an ACR/Bridge raw workflow going into Photoshop for finishing, both of which entail retaining a subscription. Also Adobe have repeatedly said that you would retain access to and use of the catalog if you cancel the subscription. I have not tried it but I have to assume that is correct. 

 

Adjustment layers are not complex - they are simply non-destructive editing layers that sit over the pixel layer(s) of an image. However, destructive versus non-destructive editing is not the key difference between Lightroom and Photoshop. I think it is more accurate to say that in Lightroom you work on the raw image whereas in Photoshop you are working on a converted image. And taking the argument in this direction risks missing an important point: Lightroom development is better compared to ACR and not Photoshop which can be used with either program. Lightroom and ACR use the same conversion engine so are essentially identical under the hood and getting towards identical above as well as you pointed out. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, gvallee said:

 

Thank you Michael. Those videos are only for fun to put on my Facebook photography page. I have no intention of commercializing them. It was great to learn Timeline, I googled how to edit videos in PS and found a very good video tutorial. I still have to refer to my notes each time I do a new one, which is not very often.

 

They look great Gen. You are a very talented photographer so I think the still skills transfer to video very well. 😀

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1 minute ago, MDM said:

 

They look great Gen. You are a very talented photographer so I think the still skills transfer to video very well. 😀

 

Blushing a nice tone of red. You're too kind.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, M.Chapman said:

 I think it's a "Marmite" thing. Some love the LR catalog and all the benefits it brings for DAM.

 

 

Just wondering what you do use as a DAM (image database)? How do you locate your older images in other words? 

Edited by MDM

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On 23/06/2020 at 19:41, Ed Rooney said:

 

All my CC problems have gone away. 

 

I have hay fever all year round, but it's at its worst in England in June and July when the grass and tree pollen are high. And of course it makes me look like a virus carrier. Twas a lovely summer day today with lots of people outside. Unfortunately, there were very few people with masks. 

 

Edo

Ah, Edo, try chewing on raw ginger.  I have had itchy hay fever eyes in the last week and as soon as I eat some ginger the symptoms go within a few minutes. 

Kathy

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2 minutes ago, gvallee said:

 

Blushing a nice tone of red. You're too kind.

 

Not at all. Those bird images are amazing, really amazing. And you have lots of other excellent stuff. I don't throw out empty compliments so you can take that as real. 😀

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