IanButty

Keywording in Lightroom - anyone else frustrated?

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Is anyone else frustrated with the lack of development in Lightroom when it comes to keywording?  LR has been out for ten years and there has been next to no development in the area of keywording in that time.

 

I have written an open letter to Adobe outlining just ten things that would make a huge difference to us as professional or stock photographers - you can read it here:

https://www.ians-studio.co.uk/2017/10/an-open-letter-to-adobe-lightroom-keywording-ten-years-of-neglect/

 

I'd love to get this open letter in front of the powers that be at Adobe - if you agree why not tweet or share in social media tagging adobe and lightroom.  

 

Thanks

Ian.

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Oh thank you for this. One thing I would add would be to be able to choose the order of keywords instead of always having them alphabetical. Alphabetical is handy for seeing if I have included something but now that the Alamy image manager is so unfriendly I would like to do my keywording in Lightroom and having them alphabetical in Alamy is not necessarily the best. The suggestion for more words allowed in keyword sets is great. Unfortunately I don't do social media so am useless but I do applaud your efforts. A while back I was having problems with some keywords not exporting and would like to be able to have the export option in the keyword list checked by default. There is probably much more but I'm only just getting a handle on using the keywording in Lightroom.

 

Paulette

 

Ps. On re-reading I see you have included control of the order of keywords.

Edited by NYCat

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Very well thought out piece, Ian.  I guess we can add those suggestions to Adobe's "to do" list.  A better keywording system in Lr would be very nice indeed.

 

5 hours ago, NYCat said:

 Alphabetical is handy for seeing if I have included something but now that the Alamy image manager is so unfriendly I would like to do my keywording in Lightroom and having them alphabetical in Alamy is not necessarily the best. 

 

 

 

Paulette, I'm confused about the keywords being alphabetical in Alamy is not the best.  I thought they were automatically rearranged in alphabetical order by Alamy.  At least when looking at images during a search of images they always are in that order.  I've searched, several times, the AIM manual, for clarification on this but have not seen anything.  It has been stated thus on the forum several times, I believe.  Have I missed something??

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Ian, 

 

Well done!

 

What do you mean by 

1. We need an easy way to combine/merge keywords – yes it is possible at the moment but it is convoluted.

 

For:

8.Keyword sets should not be limited to 9 keywords each. It makes no sense. Allowing those sets to be of variable length would make a huge improvement to the speed in which we can keyword.

I use Metadata presets

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7 hours ago, Rick Lewis said:

Very well thought out piece, Ian.  I guess we can add those suggestions to Adobe's "to do" list.  A better keywording system in Lr would be very nice indeed.

 

 

Paulette, I'm confused about the keywords being alphabetical in Alamy is not the best.  I thought they were automatically rearranged in alphabetical order by Alamy.  At least when looking at images during a search of images they always are in that order.  I've searched, several times, the AIM manual, for clarification on this but have not seen anything.  It has been stated thus on the forum several times, I believe.  Have I missed something??

 

Only the display is by alphabetical order. It does not reflect how tags were input. If they were re-arranged by alphabetical order, you would lose the proximity importance.

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I also think it would be very useful to have a way to append text to metadata. If for example you have a caption 'Country, City - date: subject..." I would like to be able to add (Photographer/Agency) with a preset.

 

Not sure if Metadata presets add keywords or if they overwrite...

Edited by Michael_Jacobs

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2 hours ago, Michael_Jacobs said:

Ian, 

 

Well done!

 

What do you mean by 

1. We need an easy way to combine/merge keywords – yes it is possible at the moment but it is convoluted.

 

For:

8.Keyword sets should not be limited to 9 keywords each. It makes no sense. Allowing those sets to be of variable length would make a huge improvement to the speed in which we can keyword.

I use Metadata presets

Thank you Michael.

 

Re combining keywords, At the moment if you end up with two duplicate keywords, the only way to combine them is as follows:

a.  Filter on the keyword name,

b.  Click the little arrow to the right of one of the keywords to show all the images assigned to it

c.  Ctr-A to select all the images

d.  Assign them to the other keyword

e.  Delete the old/duplicate keyword

It would be much nicer to just drag one on to the other - or select one and right click on the other and have an option saying "combine"

 

As for keyword sets, these are the quick pick lists of keywords

For example I have one that lists weather conditions - mine has "blue sky", sunny, rain, snow, windy, overcast, rainbow, frost, ice - but I'd like to have clouds, and stormy on that picklist but can't because it is limited to 9.  They could be a quick way of assigning your most used keywords but 9 is a silly limit to have.

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2 hours ago, Michael_Jacobs said:

Not sure if Metadata presets add keywords or if they overwrite...

Metadata preset always add keywords - you can't use remove keywords with them - which is inconsistent with all the other IPTC fields you can set in a preset.

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9 hours ago, Rick Lewis said:

Very well thought out piece, Ian.  I guess we can add those suggestions to Adobe's "to do" list.  A better keywording system in Lr would be very nice indeed.

 

If you know any way to get that list on Adboe's "to do list" then please do it.  I've been trying for ten years and had no success - thus my campaign to get people sharing this open letter on twitter and other social media platforms.  Let's make some noise out there!!

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3 hours ago, gvallee said:

 

Only the display is by alphabetical order. It does not reflect how tags were input. If they were re-arranged by alphabetical order, you would lose the proximity importance.

 

Rick, take a look at the way they appear in the image manager. That is the way the search engine uses them. So if you have "brown bear" it will be seen on a search page as "bear, brown" (if you didn't make it a phrase) but that will not prevent the image for showing up in a search for "brown bear"

 

Paulette

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1 hour ago, IanButty said:

Metadata preset always add keywords - you can't use remove keywords with them - which is inconsistent with all the other IPTC fields you can set in a preset.

 

I guess I need to learn about metadata presets. I have no idea where I would make them and apply them.

 

Paulette

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3 hours ago, NYCat said:

 

I guess I need to learn about metadata presets. I have no idea where I would make them and apply them.

 

Paulette

You use the metadata panel at the bottom right in the Library module. Create an intial preset by hitting Edit Presets in the dropdown at the top of the panel, unclick all fields by hitting Check None, then enter the data you want such as a copyright notice and finally save what you did as a new preset by using the dropdown at the top of the dialog box. You can then apply the preset to selected images in Library module. It is amazingly simple which is why I've explained it in about 2 minutes.

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7 hours ago, gvallee said:

 

Only the display is by alphabetical order. It does not reflect how tags were input. If they were re-arranged by alphabetical order, you would lose the proximity importance.

surely you would supertag those?

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3 hours ago, MDM said:

You use the metadata panel at the bottom right in the Library module. Create an intial preset by hitting Edit Presets in the dropdown at the top of the panel, unclick all fields by hitting Check None, then enter the data you want such as a copyright notice and finally save what you did as a new preset by using the dropdown at the top of the dialog box. You can then apply the preset to selected images in Library module. It is amazingly simple which is why I've explained it in about 2 minutes.

 

Thank you. I realize that many, many years ago I did all the information about copyright, who I am, etc. but I never noticed that there was a way to keyword. I need to take another look. I tend to forget how I did these things and the information I have already put in goes on all of my images. More to learn.

 

Paulette

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3 hours ago, LawrensonPhoto said:

surely you would supertag those?

 

Yes I would. I guess it applies more to legacy images for tags which have become split by Alamy stripping commas upon upload.

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I prefer to keyword all images in Photoshop CC, including the caption and separating each keyword or phrase with a semi-colon. That way, the keywords are imported into the Alamy Image Manager in the same order as I've typed them in orginally. Then, all you have to do in the AIM is pick your 10 supertags but there is no rush as the images are already on sale.

 

Marc

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16 minutes ago, famousbelgian said:

I prefer to keyword all images in Photoshop CC, including the caption and separating each keyword or phrase with a semi-colon. That way, the keywords are imported into the Alamy Image Manager in the same order as I've typed them in orginally. Then, all you have to do in the AIM is pick your 10 supertags but there is no rush as the images are already on sale.

 

Marc

 

That's also my approach. I keyword and tag in Bridge.

When I have some down time, I try and mend the huge mess Alamy has created with the new AIM implementation. That's when nightmares begin and eyes hurt.

 

Gen

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13 hours ago, NYCat said:

 

Rick, take a look at the way they appear in the image manager. That is the way the search engine uses them. So if you have "brown bear" it will be seen on a search page as "bear, brown" (if you didn't make it a phrase) but that will not prevent the image for showing up in a search for "brown bear"

 

Paulette

 

O.K. now I see how the "super tags" are listed first.  (I don't know how I missed that point)  So, do you add your most important tags, in AIM, first or last....or do you rearrange them in the order you want them in, just before saving?  

 

As you can see, I'm still learning a lot here.  Proper tagging is so important and everyone here has been a big help. 

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Unfortunately, you cannot rearrange them. At least I have never found a way. The thing seems to be designed to drive me NUTS. Anyway, the order doesn't matter except in the phrases like brown bear. Fortunately, you can make phrases easily when you are adding the keywords and you can move one keyword on to another to make a phrase. The second word has to go on top of the first word. Take a look at the Alamy instructions and video and if the whole thing seems awkward to you you are not alone.

 

Paulette

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Hi Ian:

I sent a private message via another forum I'm on to someone I know at Adobe (a liaison with stock photographers) asking if he'd pass a link to your blog post on to the right people. He's probably at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC this week and if I get there I'll mention it to him. He's a good guy and from past experience has the best interests of photographers in mind, so hopefully at least it will get a look. That doesn't mean anything will happen but I figured it was worth bringing it up with someone who works there and whose job is dealing with stock photographers. I tweeted it too. 

 

If we're sharing via social media - we'll get farther if we help each other with re-shares. I tweeted - it's where I have the most followers - but I was sick the past few weeks so my engagement is probably down - would appreciate some retweets from this crowd and will return the favor. I'm @campyphotos 

 

Separate from the keywording suggestions - all of which were excellent - I was shocked that the mobile app - the new Lightroom CC  vs "Classic" LR - actually strips keywords - what a mess - no mobile support for keywording, which is really what they should be doing - and it grabbed a bunch of stuff from my hard drive - randomly it seemed but maybe they were photos that I had processed in PS mobile over the past month or so  - it was mostly stuff I'd shared on social media for recent gallery shows and some stuff I put on instagram - and pulled it all into new "albums" without asking me. That 20GB will fill up from simply opening the program. I was actually thinking about buying the 1 TB of backup but without keywords it'll just be one big mess. 

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3 hours ago, Marianne said:

Hi Ian:

I sent a private message via another forum I'm on to someone I know at Adobe (a liaison with stock photographers) asking if he'd pass a link to your blog post on to the right people. He's probably at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC this week and if I get there I'll mention it to him. He's a good guy and from past experience has the best interests of photographers in mind, so hopefully at least it will get a look. That doesn't mean anything will happen but I figured it was worth bringing it up with someone who works there and whose job is dealing with stock photographers. I tweeted it too. 

 

If we're sharing via social media - we'll get farther if we help each other with re-shares. I tweeted - it's where I have the most followers - but I was sick the past few weeks so my engagement is probably down - would appreciate some retweets from this crowd and will return the favor. I'm @campyphotos 

 

Separate from the keywording suggestions - all of which were excellent - I was shocked that the mobile app - the new Lightroom CC  vs "Classic" LR - actually strips keywords - what a mess - no mobile support for keywording, which is really what they should be doing - and it grabbed a bunch of stuff from my hard drive - randomly it seemed but maybe they were photos that I had processed in PS mobile over the past month or so  - it was mostly stuff I'd shared on social media for recent gallery shows and some stuff I put on instagram - and pulled it all into new "albums" without asking me. That 20GB will fill up from simply opening the program. I was actually thinking about buying the 1 TB of backup but without keywords it'll just be one big mess. 

Hi Marianne,

Thanks for forwarding the link to your Adobe Contact.  I've retweeted your tweet, and also tweeted about the blog post again. @ianbutty is my twitter id, if anyone wants to find it and retweet.

 

The whole Classic vs CC thing is a complete mess - and not just about keywords.  I really want to stick with LR but I find myself, now reading up about alternatives - just in case the worst happens and Classic get no or minimal development in the future. 

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6 hours ago, IanButty said:

Hi Marianne,

Thanks for forwarding the link to your Adobe Contact.  I've retweeted your tweet, and also tweeted about the blog post again. @ianbutty is my twitter id, if anyone wants to find it and retweet.

 

The whole Classic vs CC thing is a complete mess - and not just about keywords.  I really want to stick with LR but I find myself, now reading up about alternatives - just in case the worst happens and Classic get no or minimal development in the future. 

 

 

Going to catch up on twitter soon and will RT. It's so frustrating that these huge companies seem to be abandoning their core markets and following consumer trends. When instagram fades and they find out the consumer market is only interested in free apps it will be too late. 

 

I've been heartened by the fact that I've seen more high value stock licenses here in the last few months than I have in the past couple of years, and also by similar trends elsewhere (I know we can't really discuss other sites so I won't) but at the same time the constant move toward dumbing everything down and making it so easy for the consumer to make photos that look amazing on a small screen continues. The art world seems to love instagram, and I succumbed this summer to market some openings I had. PS Express made my iPhone pix look amazing for quick uploads there, but it's not the same as something I can print 3' x 4' or larger and hang on a gallery wall. I tried a few of the LR CC presets in the wee hours this morning, and while they looked nice on my laptop screen, at 100% I could see a lot of noise - fine for instagram but not for anything serious. And I still can't even figure out what it uploaded into my 20GB of cloud storage. I gave up.

 

I was happy to see that all my Nik filters still work in "Classic."  It deleted all the old PS & LR versions when I updated and even Adobe said they wouldn't work, but they do. I won't have to buy On One yet. 

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On 10/24/2017 at 22:29, famousbelgian said:

I prefer to keyword all images in Photoshop CC, including the caption and separating each keyword or phrase with a semi-colon. That way, the keywords are imported into the Alamy Image Manager in the same order as I've typed them in orginally. Then, all you have to do in the AIM is pick your 10 supertags but there is no rush as the images are already on sale.

 

Marc

 

I find that if I keyword in Photoshop (i.e. Bridge) which several people here seem to favour, the keywords do not then appear in Lightroom, restricting the ability to search for specific types of images.  Or am I missing something? 

 

Chris

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59 minutes ago, CM photo said:

 

I find that if I keyword in Photoshop (i.e. Bridge) which several people here seem to favour, the keywords do not then appear in Lightroom, restricting the ability to search for specific types of images.  Or am I missing something? 

 

Chris

Are you writing to an xmp sidecar file this will then pick it up in any program

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My files are either DNG or CR2.  There is an option in LR  catalogue settings to "automatically write changes into XMP" but I can't see a similar setting for Bridge - i.e. I can't set it up the other way round.  Not being very technically-minded, all I can say is that when I keyword in Bridge the keywords don't appear in LR.  If I keyword in LR, however, the results do show up in Bridge.

 

Chris

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