Doc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Like many on the forum I have been looking at how the new IM and search engine is working. I took 10 of my images which had been recently uploaded, and only keyworded in the new IM system, ie. No “legacy images”. I used “real world searches” rather than bhz, and looked to see where each image figured in a search for which each image had a tag or supertag specifically for that search. (They were all also searches which figure in “All of Alamy” for the previous year) Having recorded their position, I then looked at their tags for that search term. If it was a “supertag”, I changed it to a “tag”, and if it was a “tag”, I changed it to a “supertag”. Having allowed the database to take this all into account, I then repeated the search for the images and recorded their new positions. I made no changes to captions. One would think that changing a tag to a supertag and repeating the search would result in a higher position, and changing a supertag to a tag; a lower one. In fact the opposite was true. Summary of findings: 1. Of the six images which had a tag changed to a supertag, 2 had no change in their position whatever, and the other 4 all went down in searches, one from p4 to out of the top 15 pages (GOK where it ended up!) 2. Of the 4 images which had a supertag changed to a tag, all 4 images improved their search position. One image went up from page 9 to page 1. My conclusion is that supertags are not working – either they are not being registered properly by the new IM, or not being picked up by the new Search engine. This probably explains why the captions seems so important – lets say, arbitrarily, that Alamy allocated an importance in the searches of “3” to supertags (like the old Esskeys), “2” to the caption (maybe to thwart spammers), and “1” to tags. Then look what happens if the supertags are not working – the Captions become much more important. In another test, the more supertags which were demoted to tags, the higher the subsequent position of the image resulted Interestingly the old Esskeys on legacy images seem to have transferred across to the new system OK and are being picked up properly (I think!) For info, all searches were done in the “Relevant” tab, RF and RM images, and all images used were newly uploaded and freshly keyworded using the new IM system. If anyone wants to see the exact details of the images, searches and results found please contact me and I will let you have them! I am sending this to CR for their comments – I presume they are already aware of this and hopefully they are working on it! Kumar (the Doc one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bell Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thank you for your work on this Kumar. I look forward to hearing the result of your enquiry. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeRay Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I too am finding my images in real life search are figuring very highly immediately they are on sale BEFORE I've had a chance to supertag them. They are all tagged and captioned only. It's the caption that's in the driving seat for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Chapman Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 What a mess. Suggests even basic testing hasn't been done very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Rooney Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thank you, Doc (I think). Realizing that what we do with our own collection is not the only factor in a search, what do you think we should do in the future? Get rid of all supertag? Or maybe do nothing about older images? Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stockfotoart Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thank you Kumar, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiskerke Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thank you Kumar Doc! wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Stone Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thanks also from me Kumar. It confirms what I've concluded from my own tests - the search engine needs looking at again and quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Quist Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thank you, Kumar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lewis Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 HI All Thanks to Doc and Philipe for their research but Alamy's response stuns me. Keep up all your hard work then we will move the goalposts . Just tell us how it works and what to do thats all we want so we don't waste more time and effort tagging captioning only to be told don't do it that way. Regards Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManWay Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 ALAMY: "The changing of position of the images in search results has no relevance to the changes contributors make to tags, and supertags in AIM" So what is the point then????? What changes the position of images in search results??? This is a heap of bull***t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stockfotoart Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 ALAMY: "The changing of position of the images in search results has no relevance to the changes contributors make to tags, and supertags in AIM" So what is the point then????? What changes the position of images in search results??? This is a heap of bull***t. deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 My response to the initial note to CR is as follows: "Hi Kumar, Thanks for flagging this. We shall pass this on to our search engine team to look into the issue in more detail. Thanks" In response to my further questions I got this: "Hi Kumar In the meantime we just advise you to tag, and supertag as normal and as you have been doing. We will let you know once we have heard from our team and if there is an issue then it should be fixed pretty quickly. Thanks a lot," Kumar (the Doc one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Elias Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I also have experimented on this subject and found that after "optimizing" several images, they have fallen drastically in the search results. I had several images on the first page of a specific search that returned almost 700 photos. One was in the 29th position and the other three near the bottom between the 90th and 100th position. After optimizing four images all of them dropped three pages in the search results. The optimization I've made consisted in deleting some less relevant keywords and adding expressions, like the two-word name of the subject to the super-tags, and keeping the caption and previous super-tags. Their previous place was then occupied by other non optimized images of mine, but the images I've worked on dropped like a stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lewis Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Hi Kumar Interesting that you had a slightly different response from Almay than Philipe did?? "over the coming weeks and months, there will be a series of changes to enhance the search experience on Alamy which will result in the positions of image fluctuating." So all the work many have done so far is a waste of time if the search is going to change Im leaving legacy images well alone . Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Interesting results. I haven't done any experiments myself, but I've been leaving most of my old images alone mainly for two reasons: they continue to do well in search results, plus I dread the task of going back and "retagging" them all. It sounds as if the best strategy for the time being might be to repeat supertags as tags in new images and leave old ones alone. No? Perhaps this is what is behind the more-the-merrier "discoverability" thing. Confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill Morgan Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I mentioned in another thread that I would do some playing around with my images. Yesterday I had an image on page 1, first image in second row. This a search for subject with over 30,000 images. The image had the search query in both the caption and the tags. I removed the search query from the caption so it is now just in the tags. Interestingly, although that image has now dropped past page 7, another of my images has taken its place on page one, 1st image second row. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Wilson Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I am finding that some images are not being found by searches at all despite having the same tags/keywords. For example I have three variations of a shop (Horlogerie) in "Honfleur, France" but only one of them appears. I looked at all 63 pages Indeed even searching on other very specific terms does not pull up all three but I was able to find them doing the same search within the pseudonym in AIM. I have just edited the tags so we will see what happens when the database has updated. I have now done an advanced search on just the pseudonym, with not including the words "BHZ" (i don't use it), and it includes all three images. It doesn't inlcude two of them if I search on "Honfleur, France" which is in tags and caption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeCee Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Well done Kumar, results are both fascinating and worrying - a big thank you for this analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Thompson Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I'm sure we are all trying to second guess the system somehow. I have recently added a photo of a Kwik Fit tyre centre Initially I only had the words kwik fit in the caption only (not in keywords at all) out of 160 images 1and a half pages It came in as the last one on row 7 Having added kwik fit to the keywords it now appears 4th on row 4 Not a huge jump considering I too am not touching legacy images for fear of them being relegated Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mitchell Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I mentioned in another thread that I would do some playing around with my images. Yesterday I had an image on page 1, first image in second row. This a search for subject with over 30,000 images. The image had the search query in both the caption and the tags. I removed the search query from the caption so it is now just in the tags. Interestingly, although that image has now dropped past page 7, another of my images has taken its place on page one, 1st image second row. Jill Could be that the search engine just decided to do some shuffling for variety's sake, but there is little doubt that captions now have super powers. Glad that I've been going back and redoing a lot of my captions in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Stone Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 ....I looked at all 63 pages You deserve a medal - that's above and beyond the call of duty! I can only do about 15 pages before my eyes stop registering the images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Chapman Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 ....I looked at all 63 pages You deserve a medal - that's above and beyond the call of duty! I can only do about 15 pages before my eyes stop registering the images. If you type Cntrl F (or Cmd F on a Mac) and get the search box up and enter the image ref your looking for it will find it if it's on the current page. Much easier on the eyes. Works in Chrome, and I expect other browsers too. Best to set 120 images per page too, to speed it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill Morgan Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I mentioned in another thread that I would do some playing around with my images. Yesterday I had an image on page 1, first image in second row. This a search for subject with over 30,000 images. The image had the search query in both the caption and the tags. I removed the search query from the caption so it is now just in the tags. Interestingly, although that image has now dropped past page 7, another of my images has taken its place on page one, 1st image second row. Jill Could be that the search engine just decided to do some shuffling for variety's sake, but there is little doubt that captions now have super powers. Glad that I've been going back and redoing a lot of my captions in recent years. That image had been in that spot for the past week. But what I found most interesting was that it was replaced by another of my images. Everything didn't simply move up one. So rank must be filtering in there somehow. Today I will put the caption info back and see if jumps back to page one again. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty LaRue Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown. (Doc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.